[+R] Order-Sol General Discussion

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

In spite of the major improvements HOS got in +R I don't think the matchup changed a whole lot.

[ehuangsan]

In spite of the major improvements HOS got in +R I don't think the matchup changed a whole lot.

 

I actually think many of the nuances changed from AC to +R.

I think Ky had a pull in AC; perhaps 5.5-4.5 in favor of Ky.

In +R I think it swung around making it 5.5-4.5 in favor of HOS.

The difference is the corner and near corner situation, which I think improved for HOS and allows him to rack up the damage a lot better and faster than from AC. CH Fafnir is now incredibly dangerous for Ky in the corner/near corner so stun dipper kinda gets banned because of that.

 

It's one of the matches that certainly feels bad for the HOS side, but it really isn't. HOS does not have to succeed that often in neutral to run it all back.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Yeah but if you look at that matchup difference, it's still so minor. The way the actual matchup is played doesn't change a whole lot. Ky just has to be a little more careful due to the damage difference now. How important is it to the matchup to be able to use Stun Dipper in footsie/staggered pressure?

 

The key word you use is nuances, which implies subtlety. Yes, the matchup changed, but not majorly. It may be in HOS's favor now, but the way it's played hasn't changed much.

[Sesshyru]

I'll throw my pad at somebody if they tell me a matchup is blabla.5 at a tournament. Get that outa here.

[BladeOfJustice7]

What would you say then Sesshryu? That it's a 5-5 matchup with a slight advantageous edge given to HOS?

[Brandinoli]

Despite HOS getting mostly nothing but buffs I can't really think of a MU that changed all that drastically except Zappa and that's cause of how different (sword) Zappa is.

[Sesshyru]

What would you say then Sesshryu? That it's a 5-5 matchup with a slight advantageous edge given to HOS?

 

I usually don't talk numbers because I have no idea what they mean. I have yet to see a 10 layered metric that I can qualitatively tabulate. The fact that you have 3 different HOS players giving all 3 sides of the judgement spectrum (bad, even, good) should suggest that the matchup is pretty well balanced and that it is heavily player skill dependent. The only reason why I say Ky has the advantage is because HOS is typically characterized as a rush-down character. He does most of his damage and has the tools to support mainly close range engagements. If HOS plays like HOS, he will get blown up. If Ky plays like Ky, he will win. HOS has to wait for Ky to make a mistake or give an opening in order to be HOS. Thus, in my opinion, Ky can control when HOS can be HOS. That is an advantage in my book. This behavior is evident even in the video that I have linked in some of the tippy-top players across the pond. That is one thing that we have all agreed upon.

 

I do agree that this match-up has not changed much; however, I do think that the Dizzy matchup is pretty different. Fish are pretty strange now a days and the force break is scary.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

.5 advantage or disadvantage basically means that in a first to 20, someone wins or loses an extra match. That's how insignificant it is.

 

Frankly, unless you're talking about 7-3 or greater, most matchup numbers don't mean much at tournament level.

[Errol]

I'd rather talk about matchups in terms of slight advantage, or advantage, maybe more importantly, how hard a matchup is. Some matchups are straightforward and easy to learn, others are not.

 

for example, rather than makoto's matchup numbers being in the 7-3 categories, etc, they're mostly 5.5-4.5s with some 6-4s.

 

Still, makoto has to learn how to deal with all of every other character's shit, whereas dealing with Makoto's stuff is pretty straight forward and simple.  So she'll more often than not do worse than her matchup numbers would suggest.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Matchup numbers assume both players are roughly even in skill and matchup knowledge, so they are usually reflective of nothing, unless the metagame has had a few years to mature.

[Errol]

Matchup numbers assume both players are roughly even in skill and matchup knowledge, so they are usually reflective of nothing, unless the metagame has had a few years to mature.

on top of being even in skill and matchup knowledge, that they are highly skilled and knowledgeable.

 

I don't think they have much purpose anyway. Ranks have a purpose because they let people know what characters to pick or not pick. matchup numbers primarily serve as excuses.

[ehuangsan]

I agree that the general strategy hasn't changed at all for the Ky/HOS matchup. However, the loss of stun dipper as a tool to escape from the corner or to check a jump is pretty big for Ky against HOS in +R, which is why it's now draw odds for HOS.

 

Matchup numbers are useful for a frame of reference, but like Titanium Beast said, anything better than 8-2 is playable in tournament in practice, even at high level. 7-3s do suck, but you always get one chance to win a round and some people are very adept at that kind of play. At the very least, if you want to take a game seriously from a tourney perspective, you really should not main a character that has 2-8 or worse matchups.

 

This is a copy/paste of my definition of the numbers from the Ky forum. Draw odds means that if a tie were to occur, the person having draw odds wins.

 

5-5: Even. Both sides have equal chances, just like a mirror match.

 

5.5-4.5: Draw Odds/Pull. Essentially but for one or two minor details that swing the match to favor one side, it would have been even. Examples: Zangief v. Ryu in ST, White v. Black in chess, C-Chun v. C-Sagat in CvS2

 

6-4: Advantage. Underdog has his winning chances, but in general, the flow of the match favors one side. Examples: Ky v. Testament in GGXX, Ryu v. Sagat in SFIV, Ken v. Ryu in 3S

 

7-3: Severe Advantage. Underdog pretty much only gets one shot or one momentum run at winning per round, otherwise the round is lost. Examples: Guile v. Zangief in ST, Sol v. Ky in GGXX, Yun v. Q in 3S.

 

8-2: You can be one of the best players in the world for the underdog and do everything that could reasonably be expected of you, and still lose to merely competent opponents due to the mismatch. Examples: Ryu v. Honda in ST, Chun v. Alex in 3S, Toki v. Shin in HnK.

 

9-1: You block something or get knocked down and the round is over. Examples: Akuma v. everyone in ST, Toki v. Jagi in HnK.

[Sesshyru]

Stundipper loss?

 

Chess being a 5.5 match-up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-move_advantage_in_chess

 

If black people got to go first, things would be different. Just sayin. Look at them percentages. White people been winnin for years with their first move advantage. Just like HOS really shouldn't push any buttons when the match starts IMO. HOS is black.

 

I guess if you assumed the gross percentage for victory is 55% then the match up is 5.5? Do the numbers represent the amount of games won in a best of 10 match?

 

Black can continue to imitate White as long as he finds it feasible and desirable to do so, and deviate when that ceases to be the case.

 

Yo this article is interesting.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Honestly Sesshyru, I think you're a bit biased in this case. Having access to the best Ky on the East Coast is both a blessing and a curse. Even in matches that I lose, I don't feel like it's because Ky has some magical advantage. The neutral is just annoying; once you get in, you're golden, and it's not so difficult as to put HOS at a significant disadvantage in the matchup.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I pretty much agree with everything TB, and eh-sama have posted. I've fought quite a few Order Sol's and I can say it's not really in ether character's favor, but Ky, for me draws better slightly throughout the matchup. But once Order Sol is in, you're hard pressed to get him off of you.

 

The matchup isn't terribly in either character's favor, it's like like Ky vs Anji or Order Sol vs Dizzy, both characters have almost the same amount of resources and tools to get in or keep the other out. As TB put it, it's all abut fundamentals and who knows the matchup really.

 

I said Holy Hipster Sol before because, it's true I only play(ed) one or two people who actually know how to play Order Sol.

[Sesshyru]

k

 

Welp, was a fun discussion for as long as it lasted.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Before I go to the Sol forums about this...

 

Order Sol vs Sol is even right? It feels like this character has all the right tools to keep Sol honest, at least on oki. Quite annoying to deal with...

[Brandinoli]

I'm just gonna agree to disagree with you guys on the Ky MU. I clearly have a vastly different mentality on the MU compared to you guys.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Tell you what, you comin' to TFC this year Brandino? If so, we could probably set up some matches with Brent and see if that makes a difference.

 

Seriously though, come to TFC. Probably the only major I'm gonna make this year.

[Brandinoli]

Most likely not. I'm not planning on going to another major until Frosty Faustings next year. NEC is a strong possiblity, but it's too far away for me to plan for that now.

 

I don't think playing Brent will change my thoughts on the MU that much either. I just never really found Ky to be anyone worrying about, regardless of who the Ky player was. Maybe I need to fight one that actually needs to know how to fight HOS. That seems to be a rarity, regardless of the MU.

[Sesshyru]

I choose to agree to disagree as well. I can't deny my match up experience. Even if I could, at this point, my muscles would remember it. We seem to be going around in circles so I'ma act like it's a Rock-IT CH extender and drop-it like it's hot. (get it? Cause they are burning and it's hard to comb... nm)

 

 

Most likely not. I'm not planning on going to another major until Frosty Faustings next year. NEC is a strong possiblity, but it's too far away for me to plan for that now.

 

First to 5. If I win, you have to put the hat on; all, the, way, proper.

[Sesshyru]

After all these years; I have finally noticed that Order Sol's DP starts from his knee and transitions to his foot.

 

[iBeK3n]

After all these years; I have finally noticed that Order Sol's DP starts from his knee and transitions to his foot.

You cannot be serious...

I'm telling you, Order Sol has some pretty fucked up specials. Gotta love them flaming knees!

[Sesshyru]

Good bye Order Sol.

 

It's been fun bro.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Lol, people will be back here after the xrd hype cools down.