[AC+R BUG] Abusing button macros to get negative edge inputs during every single frame

[Shinjin]

Abusing button macros for negative edge inputs during every single frame

Video explanation

CHECK OUT THIS VIDEO FIRST!!!

【GGXX+R】 Abusing button macros to get negative edge inputs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ieM4l3lYU

...every single frame! I kept the pacing for the video pretty slow in order to explain the bug properly. But yeah, ezpz lemon squeezy reversals etc ^_^

Explanation

This is a console specific bug that is centered around using following button macros included in the console version:

(P + K) button macro

(P + K + S) button macro

(P + K + S + HS) button macro

(P + D) button macro

- from now on abbreviated as e.g. (P + K + S)

If you press AND hold any of these button macros, there is a bug in the console version that registers negative edge inputs for every single frame while you are holding the macro.

So if you press and hold a button that has been assigned with (P + K), the game registers a negative edge input from both P and K for every single frame while holding the button pressed.

However, this bug does not work in training mode!

Example:

If you are using Sol and press the (P + K + S) macro, and keep holding the button pressed, Sol will execute a 214 move as soon as you input the motion 214.

Since 214 includes Gun Flame Feint (P), Riot Stomp (K) and Grand Viper (HS) the move with the highest button priority SHOULD go first:

P > K > S > HS > D

Hence, P SHOULD go first. BUT INSTEAD you get Riot Stomp (K) if you press and hold (P + K + S) macro and input 214.

If you want to execute Gunflame Feint (P) you need to press and hold both (P + K + S) and K and input 214.

If you want to execute Grand Viper (S) you need to press and hold both (P + K + S) and P and S and input 214.

This bug was around during the PC#R days, and has now been discovered by d to work in the PS3 version of Accent Core +R. Since it registers negative inputs for every single frame while the button is being hold you can for example:

How it can be (ab)used in a real match

1. Easier reversal timings in blockstrings

(e.g. just press and hold the macro and mash dead on time input while blocking testament)

2. Easier reversal timings on rise up

(e.g. mash 623623623 on rise up)

3. Easier execution of moves with invincibility or dodge properties in blockstrings

(e.g. mash 623623623 in certain blockstrings)

4. Easier timings for follow up moves to be executed as fast as possible

(e.g. dandy step into pb)

4. Easy mode timings for specials after throws

(e.g. FB beta blade after a normal throw with Chipp)

6. Easier tiger kneeing timing for moves to be as low to the ground as possible

(e.g. tk bad moon with Millia, tk yzn with Baiken, tk mad struggle with VE)

7. Easier instant guard cancels with Baiken

(e.g. no need to actually press a button in order to execute the guard cancel properly)

8. Easy mode specials on the exact frame that the round starts

(e.g. just mash and hold yo)

Extra tech: JAKE abusing the button macro glitch to fire several shots of the same N.B. with Justice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgV6dSobYh4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoCHlXWBSSY

Question

I am of the generation that believe that button macros should be banned from tournaments. I am also of the opinion that this specific bug is very abusable if you put time into it. Does anyone agree or disagree with me?

[Dream Maker]

That would definitely be abusable, Anji's double butterfly for example should be piss easy to pull off with this bug. Combo video makers are gonna love this though. ^^

[Horokei]

Hitstop on lvl1 hits is 11f. Sakura is 10f. Doesnot this bug make Baiken even more toptier?

[Shinjin]

Well, it sure makes instant guard cancels on rise up a hell of a lot easier when you don´t have to properly time a pressing S or performing an negative edge S-input to get an instant sakura. If you put the time into it.

But yeah, you can do a sakura on a lvl1 move already. This just makes it easier to perform.

[Circuitous]

Very interesting glitch, and a nice video to demonstrate it. I don't think it's enough to warrant banning macros entirely, however. My scene has plenty of pad players, and expecting them to only use the face buttons is unrealistic. It should be enough to discourage this glitch's use - I'd like to think we're all respectable enough for that.

[Dusk Thanatos]

Dunno why anyone would -not- use it unless they were training to play in an arcade. Less effort for the same result, and you get it more reliably? Seems like a no-brainer, to me. There's no "honor" floating around in competitive gaming, only winning and losing, and this would definitely aid in winning. If there's a glitch, it's going to get abused.

Compare it with back/select plinking in SF4. Plinking with back/select makes things way easier, and it's obviously impossible in an arcade, but I haven't seen people discouraging players from plinking with back/select. This AC+R glitch is more practical than plinking with select/back for almost everyone, but it falls pretty squarely in the category of "console-only tricks that make things a lot easier, but don't break the game."

[Notwhoyouthink]

it shouldnt be a problem because button mapping is suppose to be banned.. I play GG on pads and I made all those combo videos for the game and won more tournments for it back in the day then I even remember off hand. And I have fucking bi lateral carpal tunel arthritis all that shit. Stop being a baby and dont cheat.

[skd]

honestly, this is huge.

coming from a pad player, something like this is macro ban worthy. its undetectable aside from watching people's hands, and to be honest if it wasnt banned i would definitely use it. finding out about something like this is rough. macro ban seems pretty feasible now :>

[Dusk Thanatos]

Banning macros is a serious "fuck you" to pad players, and any completely fresh blood (i.e., people new to fighting games altogether) is going to be starting on pad.

Banning macros just is not a viable option for a game where three button inputs are important and people play on pad.

[Amadeous]

Not gonna lie, my first reaction to seeing this was, "I wonder if I can use this to make Burst Cancelling with Jam easier?" I'm a pad player, so the prospect of Burst Cancelling (Parry -> Burst -> FD cancel) is intimidating to me, but with this glitch it sounds like it'd be pretty easy to pull off. But granted, that feels more like making a high level technique DOABLE on pad, much less making it easy. Maybe I'm exaggerating the difficulty of a Burst Cancel on pad, but it is definitely easier on stick.

'Course, if it came down to "don't be a shithead and abuse this glitch" or "don't use button macros", I'd much rather just do the former. Especially since I can't practice using the glitch in training mode, I don't think I could trust it.

Wonder why Riot Stamp (and thusly the K button) takes priority over Gun Flame Feint (thusly the P button) though. That's...backwards.

[skd]

Not gonna lie, my first reaction to seeing this was, "I wonder if I can use this to make Burst Cancelling with Jam easier?" I'm a pad player, so the prospect of Burst Cancelling (Parry -> Burst -> FD cancel) is intimidating to me, but with this glitch it sounds like it'd be pretty easy to pull off. But granted, that feels more like making a high level technique DOABLE on pad, much less making it easy. Maybe I'm exaggerating the difficulty of a Burst Cancel on pad, but it is definitely easier on stick.

'Course, if it came down to "don't be a shithead and abuse this glitch" or "don't use button macros", I'd much rather just do the former. Especially since I can't practice using the glitch in training mode, I don't think I could trust it.

Wonder why Riot Stamp (and thusly the K button) takes priority over Gun Flame Feint (thusly the P button) though. That's...backwards.

its weird, for ABA her button priority stays in tact when using PKS macro (236 produces dodge, to do kick you must hold P after pressing the macro)

[DaiAndOh]

I'm not saying whether it's bannable or not.

However, "don't abuse it?" That's not going to happen. There's no way to tell if a person just goes or does it anyway.

If something happens, macros get banned. If not, plays as is.

[Dusk Thanatos]

Also, not that this should be all that surprising, but I'm confirming that this works in unpatched AC+ too.

[DaiAndOh]

Also, not that this should be all that surprising, but I'm confirming that this works in unpatched AC+ too.

I wonder if it works in the PS2 version as well....out of curiousity.

[Dusk Thanatos]

I actually have my ps2 right here, so I'll check.

[Notwhoyouthink]

banning macros is not a fuck you to pad players.. I do all my stuff ON pad. Learn to play the game stop using crutchs. Execution is part of what makes a good player. Seriously if I could win all those tournments back in the day with my crippled hands and I make all these combo videos wiht them still. What is your excuse?

[Dusk Thanatos]

And, this glitch is actually in PS2 too.

Kind of surprising no one found it until now, honestly.

[Shinjin]

Compare it with back/select plinking in SF4. Plinking with back/select makes things way easier, and it's obviously impossible in an arcade, but I haven't seen people discouraging players from plinking with back/select. This AC+R glitch is more practical than plinking with select/back for almost everyone, but it falls pretty squarely in the category of "console-only tricks that make things a lot easier, but don't break the game."

Your comparison with back/select plinking in SF4 is unfair. You can seriously just press and hold a macro button during a blockstring, and then wait for the proper moment and mash out the directional input in order to get a special with this bug. The move really does get triggered whenever it is possible. This is makes confirms in blockstrings much much much easier to the point that it is game breaking in my opinion.

Your blatant statement that this bug is a "console-only tricks that make things a lot easier, but don't break the game" is also not true in my opinion. As an example I can specifically name Baiken. This bug literally allows me to press and hold a button in certain situations, giving me negative edge inputs for every single frame. Let us say that you have initiated a block string, a block string that is specifically made to be safe for guard cancels. But due to the fact that sakura has 10 frames startup that also ignores hitstop, and lvl 1 moves have 11 frames of hitstop. Now, given the fact that I know all of your possible blockstrings (and when you get to a certain level, you do start to recognize them all), I can look for them and then LITERALLY JUST MASH AROUND with my joystick to get a guard cancel. The difference here when it comes to execution when comparing to without abusing the bug (actually having to press a button [ch warning if bait you]/ or release a button for negative edge [you lost your one chance]) is huge.

However, I do understand the sentiment that banning button macros could more so end up being a ban that specifically targetting newer players and MIGHT scare them away from participating in tournaments. These newer players will MOST LIKELY not try to abuse this bug due to the fact it is... kind of wierd. And takes awhile to get used to. But if usage of this bug is not banned from European tournaments I will abuse the shit out of it and win them all (slight exaggeration to get my point across)

[Amadeous]

I do want to note that "mashing around" the input is still not the same as a reversal timed input. Yes, inputting the button every frame helps obviously, but you still have to complete the input on reversal timing. Easier for wakeups and reversals out of blockstrings maybe, but for Baiken's Guard Cancels, you would still need to buffer the Guard Cancel. For these types of situations, it's making things good players already do consistently, easier.

If they're abusing the glitch to mash out reversal Volcanic Viper? Treat it like you would treat any VV happy Sol...block and punish. A Baiken that loves to do GCs? As you said, you only do it during specific blockstrings, and you still need to buffer Sakura to make it a guaranteed hit. Otherwise the opponent can RC, jump cancel, etc, bait it out and punish her.

Now for things such as "inputs on frame 1 of match" or "making 1f links to special moves easier in combos" or maybe Burst Cancelling with Jam, that can be arguable. At the very least, it mostly only affects Baiken, everyone else is training wheels. Macro ban for Baiken players? Maybe.

[Sym_]

banning macros is not a fuck you to pad players.. I do all my stuff ON pad. Learn to play the game stop using crutchs. Execution is part of what makes a good player. Seriously if I could win all those tournments back in the day with my crippled hands and I make all these combo videos wiht them still. What is your excuse?

People are lazy

[M.Song]

i thought dust had the highest button priority in gg

[zaeris]

I'm just curious,

Having repeat input, does that mean I can buffer frc-> special cancel on frame 1-2 instantly or does it only works for special, then in that circumstance it wouldn't affect frc points since you will still need to time the frc.

[Dusk Thanatos]

Your comparison with back/select plinking in SF4 is unfair. You can seriously just press and hold a macro button during a blockstring, and then wait for the proper moment and mash out the directional input in order to get a special with this bug. The move really does get triggered whenever it is possible. This is makes confirms in blockstrings much much much easier to the point that it is game breaking in my opinion.

Your blatant statement that this bug is a "console-only tricks that make things a lot easier, but don't break the game" is also not true in my opinion. As an example I can specifically name Baiken. This bug literally allows me to press and hold a button in certain situations, giving me negative edge inputs for every single frame. Let us say that you have initiated a block string, a block string that is specifically made to be safe for guard cancels. But due to the fact that sakura has 10 frames startup that also ignores hitstop, and lvl 1 moves have 11 frames of hitstop. Now, given the fact that I know all of your possible blockstrings (and when you get to a certain level, you do start to recognize them all), I can look for them and then LITERALLY JUST MASH AROUND with my joystick to get a guard cancel. The difference here when it comes to execution when comparing to without abusing the bug (actually having to press a button [ch warning if bait you]/ or release a button for negative edge [you lost your one chance]) is huge.

However, I do understand the sentiment that banning button macros could more so end up being a ban that specifically targetting newer players and MIGHT scare them away from participating in tournaments. These newer players will MOST LIKELY not try to abuse this bug due to the fact it is... kind of wierd. And takes awhile to get used to. But if usage of this bug is not banned from European tournaments I will abuse the shit out of it and win them all (slight exaggeration to get my point across)

I understand that it makes it orders of magnitude easier for Baiken in one sense, but the end result is the same, especially since you can already hit a button to negative edge out a special with later (without risking CH) by inputting FD -- and the macro forces you to FD every time you mash a GC, even with the P+D macro. Doing this glitch to GC will actually cost meter every time you try, making it worse than doing it normally. In fact, to Sakura, say, using this glitch is effectively the same as inputting 4[K]+ ~ ]K[ ~ 412]S[ over and over. This is is something you could already do. It's only different if Baiken has no meter, in which case it's more like you just perfectly timed a GC -- something you're already capable of doing without the glitch -- or like you hit during one hit's blockstun to do 412]s[ during the next hit's blockstun, also something that's possible in the glitchless game. The glitch doesn't allow people to execute things the game didn't allow them to before; it just lets them do it more easily. If making it easier to do something makes the game broken, then the game was broken to begin with.

Plus, as Ama pointed out, the 412 input -- even if it's happening without you hitting or releasing a button -- still has to hit the right timing for the GC to come out. Even if you get more chances, you still had time the input, and you were eating meter while you did it.

banning macros is not a fuck you to pad players.. I do all my stuff ON pad. Learn to play the game stop using crutchs. Execution is part of what makes a good player. Seriously if I could win all those tournments back in the day with my crippled hands and I make all these combo videos wiht them still. What is your excuse?

I play on stick.

Pad players have to play in odd, nonstandard configs to play GG without macros on a normal pad (I know a Dizzy player who has R2 mapped to HS to make FRCs possible without claw grip, and the amount of pointless effort it takes to reliably hit two face buttons with one thumb to FD/FRC/RC hurts my head), and its being a five button game doesn't help any. Besides -- macros are for pad players in the first place. Stick players don't need them, hitbox players wouldn't need them, and even hypothetical keyboard players wouldn't. Pad is the only control form where you've only got one thumb to hit four buttons, and macros are designed to make that easier.

I also don't see why using a macro is a crutch, or something to discourage. It's in the game, accessible at button config, just as accessible to you as anyone else. ArcSys even made the point of fixing the macro delay for the PS360 port, so ArcSys obviously expected they'd see use. If your argument is that it makes things easier, then you could toss out a lot of simple execution tricks, like negative edging specials after FRCs -- that pretty clearly makes things easier. If your argument is that it's not in the arcade version then, well, neither are pads. Neither CS1 Valk nor CS1 Makoto was in the arcades, but they were tournament legal. Button config isn't in the arcade version, either, so if that's the logic, everyone should just play on stick with the default layout.

I'm obviously exaggerating, but there's no reason to ban macros unless they allow something you can't already do in the game. This glitch only lets you do things you can already do, but more easily. The reaction shouldn't be, "this makes things too easy!" That reeks of entitlement. The reaction should be, "damn, now I can execute more reliably!"

Honestly, the FGC as a whole -- myself included, sometimes -- has a tendency to think that some things should be hard, that you need to put forth effort to be entitled to do certain things. Difficulty exists to reward players who dedicate themselves to the game, yes, but there's no reason to think that you have to "earn" the right to be good at a fighting game by grinding exec like you grind levels for power in MMOs, or "earn" the right the use powerful tools like Millia or Litchi oki by grinding for hours in training to get the combos into the setups right. What ultimately separates good players from bad players is decisions, not their ability to execute like machines. Even Woshige drops combos.

I'm just curious,

Having repeat input, does that mean I can buffer frc-> special cancel on frame 1-2 instantly or does it only works for special, then in that circumstance it wouldn't affect frc points since you will still need to time the frc.

Can't negative edge an FRC, so this only works with specials.

[Shinjin]

The glitch doesn't allow people to execute things the game didn't allow them to before

Well with this glitch actually allows people to execute things the game didn´t allow them before:

JAKE abusing the button macro glitch to fire several shots of the same N.B. with Justice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgV6dSobYh4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoCHlXWBSSY

This while at the same time making x amount of situations more easily executed than intended - when compared with the original arcade version. But I feel that we won´t agree on this concept no matter how long might we discuss it Although I hear what you´re saying, and I do understand your concern. I also am also actively taking an approach that can be interpreted as extremely elitistic to pour some fuel on the fire, since I honestly do think this is a discussion worth having for all tournament organizers around the world. Regardless of what people think of button macros in general - drama could happen because of this glitch, iz all im zaying. I would argue that this is an inconvenient truth.

[shtkn]

my immediate thought to this is how i felt about mvc3's "block both ways at one with a hit box" controversy: tough shit, play to win

whether this is what TOs will agree to... who knows?

PS: did they ban hit boxes for marvel? i don't remember