[AC+R BUG] Abusing button macros to get negative edge inputs during every single frame

[Amadeous]

The things you realize right after you post. So the CPU cheating with Slashback is still a mystery.

Apparently it's plinking SB and FD. Yes, apparently this works. No, I don't know why.

Anyway, my vote is still towards "Ban macros for Justice players" (or perhaps just using the glitch in this way, as this is much more obvious); any other problem issues can be dealt with as they become apparent.

[Dusk Thanatos]

Bans have to be discrete and enforceable. "Don't map macros" is a lot easier to enforce than "don't perform this Justice glitch" or "don't use the macro to guard cancel with Baiken."

I think you misunderstand the point of using the arcade as a standard. It's not about replicating the experience 100% (since that's impossible without using the actual arcade hardware), rather coming as close as possible.

"As close as possible" is hard to pin down, though, and we repeatedly play in ways that don't emulate the arcade experience (console only characters being the most obvious difference, among the others discussed). I'd rather we just acknowledge console isn't an arcade and move on, especially when the devs themselves make that acknowledgement in putting things like macros, story mode, etc. into the game.

[Errol]

Bans have to be discrete and enforceable. "Don't map macros" is a lot easier to enforce than "don't perform this Justice glitch" or "don't use the macro to guard cancel with Baiken."

FGC / ESPORTS has a history of banning specific things like glitches and such down to the little details. It's not an issue.

[Dusk Thanatos]

FGC / ESPORTS has a history of banning specific things like glitches and such down to the little details. It's not an issue.

It is an issue, for the reasons discussed. Short of literally watching someone's hands, you won't see if someone's doing the glitch with Baiken, using it to get perfect TK bad moons, etc.

[Errol]

It is an issue, for the reasons discussed. Short of literally watching someone's hands, you won't see if someone's doing the glitch with Baiken, using it to get perfect TK bad moons, etc.

it seems like it is immediately obvious for Justice, I don't know about others.

[Dusk Thanatos]

it seems like it is immediately obvious for Justice, I don't know about others.

What if you only use the macro to perform the glitch in a way you could without the macro?

[Errol]

What if you only use the macro to perform the glitch in a way you could without the macro?

pausing during matches is probably illegal right?

[Digital Watches]

The things you realize right after you post. So the CPU cheating with Slashback is still a mystery.

It's been known for a while that you can "FDC" a failed slashback, allowing you to do e.g. [4PH]+Mash S and slashback more often than you could otherwise. I think you can theoretically slashback as fast as you can get the game to recognize your pos-edge S inputs. A human can visibly get more slashback attempts per second than is otherwise possible using this method with no macros.

[Dusk Thanatos]

pausing during matches is probably illegal right?

You're acting like 1f consecutive button hits are impossible. Ama just paused the game because he couldn't do them on his pad.

[Errol]

You're acting like 1f consecutive button hits are impossible. Ama just paused the game because he couldn't do them on his pad.

I don't think it is practical enough that you will see it without macros. and just saying no multiple missiles on the screen would cut it.

[Notwhoyouthink]

I see this thrown out a lot but I've never seen any actual data verify this. A while ago I had Circuitous run the game on an emulator using frame advance to test how much delay there was for a macro; we found there wasn't any sort of "macro delay" at all. Pressing the macro button does exactly the same thing as pressing 3 buttons at once, there's no added input delay or such. Unless there's a line of code or some other test proving otherwise, I'm not believing the "Macros have delay" myth I've seen for so many years.

Onto the actual discussion; I feel that "until now" is misleading. As it's been pointed out, this glitch has existed since PS2 GG, and plenty of tournaments were run without macros being banned. Are you saying it's only an issue now because a certain character can make use of it to an extent where it would affect high level play? As Watches pointed out, it's perfectly doable on stick without a macro, which beyond "filling the screen with projectiles" doesn't do much for Justice. Which, beyond looking intimidating, I haven't had the chance to fight a Justice that uses it so I can't say if it really breaks the character.

Again, I'm pushing for a middle ground. Banning macros across the board for everyone is silly when only one, ARGUABLY two characters can abuse them to make a difference in actual play. For anyone that uses macros and plays one of the 23 other characters in the game, it's ridiculous.

Also: To anyone saying "macros are just a crutch, learn how to play the game without them"...execution is subjective. I can tell you for a fact that I can't hit Jam's 236P FRC on a pad without a macro, yet I have a friend of mine who also plays pad, and can hit the FRC on it and on Bandit Revolver just fine without macros. He didn't grind them out in training mode, he can just do some things easier than I can. Just because something doesn't affect you doesn't mean you shouldn't be conscious of who it does affect.

stop making up excuses for people to cheat. How many tournaments did i win back in the day with my crippled hands? Or what about all those combo videos ive made and still make in my spare time to this day? You know I had to teach my self to play on pad because i physically couldnt even play on arcade stick anymore. Suck it up, stop thinking of excuses to cheat. Execution is a part of what makes a good player. Theres no subjectiveness to it, you just said you cant do it with out macro your a cheater end of story. If you want to play for fun causally whatever. But dont go to tournaments with that attitude where people actually play for money with that sort of idea in your head that its not cheating.

[Dusk Thanatos]

I don't think it is practical enough that you will see it without macros. and just saying no multiple missiles on the screen would cut it.

You say this like SF players don't regularly perform 1f timings, or like that Bridget player mentioned earlier didn't get the very similar Bridget glitch down. Practice the input + tapping your fingers on the button like you're playing a repeated note on a piano, and you'd get it eventually.

Banning multiple missiles is banning something that -does- actually work in arcade, as Ama showed.

[Eshi]

stop making up excuses for people to cheat. How many tournaments did i win back in the day with my crippled hands? Or what about all those combo videos ive made and still make in my spare time to this day? You know I had to teach my self to play on pad because i physically couldnt even play on arcade stick anymore. Suck it up, stop thinking of excuses to cheat. Execution is a part of what makes a good player. Theres no subjectiveness to it, you just said you cant do it with out macro your a cheater end of story. If you want to play for fun causally whatever. But dont go to tournaments with that attitude where people actually play for money with that sort of idea in your head that its not cheating.

are you real

[Errol]

You say this like SF players don't regularly perform 1f timings, or like that Bridget player mentioned earlier didn't get the very similar Bridget glitch down. Practice the input + tapping your fingers on the button like you're playing a repeated note on a piano, and you'd get it eventually.

Banning multiple missiles is banning something that -does- actually work in arcade, as Ama showed.

just wondering, do you really think people won't be able to see the difference between someone doing it with a macro vs normally? and in the event that someone actually does, it's actually a really simple matter to get them to do it without macros to prove they can do it without macros? granted, the overall button macro thing seems broken, but enforceability on justice's missile glitch is not actually a reason to disbar macros IMO.

[Notwhoyouthink]

are you real

No im a bot. Ill take it your one of the players that wants to cheat to win good job

[mAc Chaos]

so you think all macros are cheating basically?

and nah he doesn't cheat

[Circuitous]

I don't think it is practical enough that you will see it without macros. and just saying no multiple missiles on the screen would cut it.

As a technique, it's practical enough that AC Bridget players relied on it for anything approaching high-level play. No reason to believe a Justice player couldn't manage it as well.

stop making up excuses for people to cheat. How many tournaments did i win back in the day with my crippled hands? Or what about all those combo videos ive made and still make in my spare time to this day? You know I had to teach my self to play on pad because i physically couldnt even play on arcade stick anymore. Suck it up, stop thinking of excuses to cheat. Execution is a part of what makes a good player. Theres no subjectiveness to it, you just said you cant do it with out macro your a cheater end of story. If you want to play for fun causally whatever. But dont go to tournaments with that attitude where people actually play for money with that sort of idea in your head that its not cheating.

You're cool and all, but shut the fuck up. You don't get bonus points for overcoming a condition or electing not to make use of your index fingers out of some asinine sense of moral superiority. Playing to win means making use of any advantage you can, and if the game sees fit to offer macros, I don't see why players shouldn't be able to use them.

Apply this mentality to any other aspect of fighting games and you're just another scrub.

[Notwhoyouthink]

Well this scrub probably has won more tournaments then most people have ever gone to period. Guess that makes me a scrub. But the fact I use to take peoples money like you in tournments that take games so seriously that they need to find any advantage they can get to "win" and think pressing one button is the same as pressing 3 makes me pretty happy.

[Circuitous]

I'm aware of your ~illustrious~ tournament history. I don't care. Quit being a shithead.

[Dusk Thanatos]

just wondering, do you really think people won't be able to see the difference between someone doing it with a macro vs normally? and in the event that someone actually does, it's actually a really simple matter to get them to do it without macros to prove they can do it without macros? granted, the overall button macro thing seems broken, but enforceability on justice's missile glitch is not actually a reason to disbar macros IMO.

You can see it if you watch them, yeah, but no one's going to take the time to hover over some random player's stick in pools to make sure that second missile on the screen wasn't macro'd, and it's going to be a hell of a lot harder for other characters people are worried about, like Baiken (especially since the Baiken player could be on pad and doing the trick without the obvious tell of hitting not-the-usual-button-of-the-large-buttons-on-his-stick).

Basically, it'd too much of a pain in the TO's ass to ban doing X with the macro because you have to police everyone's matches and basically have someone watching a player's stick and the screen at all times. It's theoretically feasible, but utterly impractical.

Also, you can't just ask them to show if they can do it after the fact. If you're banning the use of the macro to fire two missiles, or whatever ban you make, it doesn't matter if you -can- do it the other way. What matters is if you -did-.

[SuperJ]

thought experiment: replace 'ban macros' with 'increase airport security.' still agreed?

[Eshi]

If your argument is that macros make the game easier: Does that mean tournaments should ban all tactics that make execution easier? Is plinking in SFIV cheating?

If your argument is that macros are not intended to be used: We're playing console gear, not arcade gear, button mapping is built into the game with the intention of being used so calling its use cheating is arbitrary at best. You might as well say using a pad instead of a stick is cheating.

If your argument is that you've won tournaments years ago therefore you are infallible: bro do you even lift?

The only argument that makes sense to me is that the only concrete method to eliminate its usage is to enact a flat ban on macros, and it only really matters for select characters like Justice. Even then, if someone can actually consistently execute the missile glitch then they HELLA deserve to win. As has been said, it's theoretically possible in arcade machines too.

[Notwhoyouthink]

Your an idoits... pressing one button is different then pressing 3.. its different then one button even being 2. This is fact. You guys have ridiculous logic there is no way pressing one button is the same as 3. Do you know how many times im sure I have played a game or made any of those combo videos where I thought I hit the FRC but maybe I hit the buttons not all at the same time. Of course there have been times like that, because no one is 100% perfect. Now has there ever been a time where I have pressed one button, and somehow.. NOT pressed that button? No of course not beacuse 1 is 1. And 3 is 3. One does not equal 3. Your eliminating more human error from the equation which is part of playing games. You know what pressing the start button is put into the game to. Thats not in teh arcade maybe I should start pausing the game to give me some time to rethink things or maybe pause the game to make you fuck up your combo. And yea my arguement is what is you guys excuse that you need to make the game easier? What is your excuse that you need a crutch? Cuz I can assure you I was winning tournments on disablity with crippled hands carrying around garbage bags while I was in and out of the bathroom fucked up. Did you see me using macros? Or looking for some excuse to make the game easier for me? So if I can do it, YOU guys can do it. And are you seriously.. asking me... ME if I work out? seriously? Ive been in the hospital dying before. I can assure I do more physically just to stay alive then you do. You guys can go find my facebook and look at my gainz if you are that horny and insecure to think that I have no life and play video games all day lol. That I recall I barely ever played games, I only even continued to play games after I got sick beacuse I was winning money from tournaments so it was something to do. Please lets not even get into a conversation if you are trying to call me or insinuate I am somehow nerdier then any of you lol.

[AMB Bakery]

'Nerdy' has nothing to do with arguing tournament rules.

This is not your blog.

Macros are totally fine unless they allow a significant advantage depending on the character.

Crutches to do FRC/RC on a pad is fine mainly because of how awkward it is to press 3 buttons at once depending on how you hold a controller.

[4r5]

Ban macros?

Allow macros, but ban macro abuse?

Allow macros, but ban specific abuse of macros, like Justice?

You all are looking at this wrong. Fuck reasoning and arguments and just look at the costs. The only feasible options are to either allow macros or just flat out ban macros. Anything in between would require staff, that don't exist, to monitor each match for abuse. Or worse, have players enforce the rules themselves. Which is just asking for drama. More headache than it's worth.

And so we're back to either banning macros or allowing macros. And we're going to keep things the way they are, macros allowed, because we can't afford to alienate our current pad players and potential fresh faces on the fucking heels of Xrd! This is the same reasoning EVO had for allowing console characters in SF4 and allowing macros. Not everyone who plays these games read these forums, and not everyone who comes to a tournament finds out about these tournaments from a post on the internet with rules attached.

Ok, so I just tried the glitch with Justice and I think this is pretty much a Justice issue. And the Justice playerbase is maybe so small that this is a non-issue? Any pad Justice players? Any stick Justice players that use macros????