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Shinjin

[AC+R BUG] Abusing button macros to get negative edge inputs during every single frame

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any justice player who starts doing this consistently is probably or very likely to be a top justice player.

as said, justice player base isn't even that big. you're looking at one, two, three max players doing this (and winning alot, too) in let's say a 5 year period, factoring in she's fairly new.

l don't think the use of macros are unfair. why are they in the game?? if it's considered cheating, then don't mind me if l nonchalantly sneak peeks at your test papers.

but, the glitch does allow justice to use missles in a way that that wasn't intended likely, and the screen space does this now allows her to control looks more powerful. not entirely sure how to feel.

is it possible that people are blowing this out of proportion? (disclaimer: this it not meant for anyone directly.)

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I don't see why this glitch is a problem, honestly. The characters who will have a problem with it are the exact same characters that already have a problem with her zoning via cycling through P > K > S missiles. It removes human error from the execution, but a few funny online matches with completely baffled players isn't evidence that it's impossible to get around and requires an emergency ban. I agree that it needs to be proven in tournament that it's a problem first. I don't plan on using macros so no ulterior motive here =P

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There really is no choice but to either allow macros or ban them completely. As 4r5 pointed out, it's impossible to enforce anything in between.

Take the Justice glitch, is a judge or opposing player going to be able to tell the difference between a Heavy Slash and a Dust NB done twice in a row? It could definitely matter if you just blew the opponent away with a CH Michael Sword and you want two offscreen NBs to land on the same spot one after another. Would someone stop the game right there and be like "HEY DID YOU DO TWO OF THE SAME NB?"

What about using the glitch to summon a second Punch NB slightly before you're able to normally as opposed to having two of the same ones on the screen? You'd normally have to let first punch NB blow up to summon a second one, but what if I summoned the second NB then let the first one explode, making the space between them slightly tighter? There's no way you'd be able to tell in an actual match unless you're the one doing it.

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I still feel like it wouldn't be that hard to enforce a character-specific macro ban.

Character select -> they pick Justice -> make sure they don't have macros mapped...

If they pick a problem character they don't map macros. Anyone else is no big deal. Considering most players check buttons before a match anyway it's not like this would really interfere with tournaments. Not seeing why this makes it too hard and we have to ban macros for everyone or not ban them at all.

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I just tested out the macro glitch (PKS) with Justice in versus mode. If you hold down the macro and mash 22, you'll just get infinite P and S missiles, alternating between P and S for each missile deployed. If you hold down the macro and then two other buttons out of P K or S and mash 22, you'll get the missile corresponding to the button you're not holding, ad infinitum (e.g., hold K, S, PKS, mash 22, get infinite P missile, up to 4 or 5 on screen at once before one hits).

So yeah, it should be very visually apparent if some Justice player is using the macro glitch, and I'd say using it to get two (or more) of the same missile on screen at once is the only practical use. Using it to make one missile travel just a little bit farther than normal before it explodes might as well just be not using the macro since the explosion is so big anyway.

I agree with Amadeous on character-specific enforcement not being a big deal. I honestly think Justice is the only character (aside from Baiken maybe) that should have macros restricted. Frame-perfect reversals aren't that big a deal imo. If it's on wake-up, chances are it's some scrub who's abusing the macro to get wake-up DP and they're still taking a huge risk. If it's in blockstrings, all you have to do is throw out lows or just safe moves and watch them hang themselves.

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ITT we see the divide between people who have played for 10+ years (anti-macro) versus people who have not. When I would sometimes play on pad back in the day, I would also assume that macros were banned and not use them, and I think most of the older players would have assumed the same.

The point of banning macros in the past was for consistency for all the majors like SBO (still arcade cab), MWC, Evo, etc, and allows for the Japanese to come and play here under the game rules that they are use to.

At the time, most people played in arcades and not on console, and Evo used to be run on arcade cabs only so people did not have button mapping available.

I understand that times have changed, but you still need to look at what should be the standard ruleset in view of the other majors and scenes out there, especially Japan since the Japanese have the biggest scene and are gracious enough to come to the US or other places to play. In this case, because Japan tournament rules (arcade cab) should be the standard for GG, macros should just simply be banned and they should have been banned. I dunno why they were ever allowed during the time when I completely retired from fighting games.

Like I mentioned previously, CvS2 tournament rules ban all macros and console only characters because the ruleset standard is still arcade cab because of the Japanese, even though macros would not change anything gameplay wise.

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'Nerdy' has nothing to do with arguing tournament rules.

This is not your blog.

Macros are totally fine unless they allow a significant advantage depending on the character.

Crutches to do FRC/RC on a pad is fine mainly because of how awkward it is to press 3 buttons at once depending on how you hold a controller.

Its awkward and to painful for me to play on arcade stick now so I cant. No one should be able to use a arcade stick anymore since I cant. Its only fair right? Also actualy sometimes my hands are so weak I cant even have the weight of a dual shock ps controler in my hand and have to play on a regular ps1 controler. Saying that now anything heavier then a regular ps1 controler is only fair right? Its to awkward and painful to play on them so the playing field should be leveled.

I think this is the fairest thing to do. You guys can macro because its awkward for you but you guys can only play on a ps1 controller. Not dual shock to or anything heavier. Sounds fair.

Oh also since macro buttons are in the game, so is start like I said so expect me to start randomly. Oh and EX characters and gold were put in teh game as well.. Why would they put them in and not expect me to use them. That doesnt seem very fair to me.

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I understand that times have changed, but you still need to look at what should be the standard ruleset in view of the other majors and scenes out there, especially Japan since the Japanese have the biggest scene and are gracious enough to come to the US or other places to play. In this case, because Japan tournament rules (arcade cab) should be the standard for GG, macros should just simply be banned and they should have been banned.

if you are going to argue that we need to follow japanese arcade conventions, shouldn't pads be banned in general?

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if you are going to argue that we need to follow japanese arcade conventions, shouldn't pads be banned in general?

No because sans the custom button binding macros theres nothing you can't do on a pad that you couldn't do on the arcade cab. You don't have a one button RC or FD on an arcade cab.

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No because sans the custom button binding macros theres nothing you can't do on a pad that you couldn't do on the arcade cab. You don't have a one button RC or FD on an arcade cab.

You're inputting it completely differently by using a pad instead of an arcade stick, and in making inputs that way, you're doing something you can't do on a cab.

If using a pad is okay since the results are equivalent, using a macro should be fine, since the results are equivalent. Contrary to popular belief, pressing three buttons on a stick is significantly easier than doing the same thing on pad, which is why macros exist.

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Think of it this way.

Your available inputs for an arcade cab are the directionals (1-9) and P, K, S, HS, D. To have a P+K+S input, you have to press P+K+S together; you don't have the option of just having one button bound to it.

Pad also has the same inputs as the arcade cab, but since there are more buttons available, you can have a button mapped to say P+K+S, which is a button that isn't available on the arcade cab. Like in the CvS2 example, even if it doesn't change anything gameplay wise it's still an extra option that is not available on the arcade so the rules and the game become inconsistent between the Japanese and the US scene. The CvS2 US scene chose to keep the rules the same as the Japanese scene since Japan was considered to be the standard and banned all button macros.

I actually do shank hitting three buttons together on stick more often than I should because I have old man hands.

EDIT: And yes LOL at the hitbox, and I recognize that I am probably in the minority when I say that nonsense should be banned, especially for games like SSVSP where you all of a sudden gain options that are theoretically possible but physically impossible on stick or pad.

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Wow, shit just comes out of the woodwork...

Look, if something is going to be banned just enforce a character specific macro glitch. If you can spot it, punish them for doing it. Simple. There's no need to punish tons of pad players. Just none.

TD is right - people are blowing it out of proportion.

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all i know is next time they're playing casuals at my offline scene I'm picking justice and hopping in. hold down the macro and mash 22 right? got it

scumbag here.

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Wow, shit just comes out of the woodwork...

Look, if something is going to be banned just enforce a character specific macro glitch. If you can spot it, punish them for doing it. Simple. There's no need to punish tons of pad players. Just none.

TD is right - people are blowing it out of proportion.

How are you supposed to spot it.

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i mentioned one on the roboky thread

macro leads to earliest frame robodashes every time

how would someone know that i am using the glitch or if i just know

also i need to test this out, but i know on ps2 gg, hitting left and right at the same time made your char block both directions.. need to test it out on the ps3

i know this is something that was brought up earlier for marvel

but while it seems like we are on the topic of hitboxes again...

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Hitboxes now have input cleaners that make that not happen, as mentioned earlier. Also.

Ban macros?

Allow macros, but ban macro abuse?

Allow macros, but ban specific abuse of macros, like Justice?

You all are looking at this wrong. Fuck reasoning and arguments and just look at the costs. The only feasible options are to either allow macros or just flat out ban macros. Anything in between would require staff, that don't exist, to monitor each match for abuse. Or worse, have players enforce the rules themselves. Which is just asking for drama. More headache than it's worth.

And so we're back to either banning macros or allowing macros. And we're going to keep things the way they are, macros allowed, because we can't afford to alienate our current pad players and potential fresh faces on the fucking heels of Xrd! This is the same reasoning EVO had for allowing console characters in SF4 and allowing macros. Not everyone who plays these games read these forums, and not everyone who comes to a tournament finds out about these tournaments from a post on the internet with rules attached.

Ok, so I just tried the glitch with Justice and I think this is pretty much a Justice issue. And the Justice playerbase is maybe so small that this is a non-issue? Any pad Justice players? Any stick Justice players that use macros????

Best post in the topic, bar none.

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So far the only reason I've seen for banning macros globally in this thread is "because it's not that way on arcades and it gives people who use them an unfair advantage."

Well, on pad (or modded sticks with a smaller throw) it's easier to block Eddie "unblockables" because there's less travel time between 1 and 4. Clearly we need to ban all pads and modded sticks; it's an unfair advantage after all! And it's not even like the arcades! How shameful.

What 4r5 said is right, what Dusk Thanatos said is right, what Digital Watches said is right, what shtkn said is right, what I've been saying is right. Banning macros is a ridiculous out-of-date idea perpetuated by people who don't even know how they work. If macros are really a problem with this glitch, WE'VE ALL AGREED it's only a problem with Justice and ARGUABLY with Baiken, and so it's not a big deal to agree not to let players use a macro when playing one of those two characters.

Also; as a counterpoint to "macros are unfair because you only press one button instead of three": How do you expect to negative edge off an FRC? It's damn near impossible to do Baiken's Instant Overhead Yosanzen FRC -> Tatami without negative edging the Tatami input, something that's MUCH HARDER to do when you're using a macro. Anything else done this way (negative edging a special directly after using a macro) is harder as well. So uh...how, again, are macros magically easy mode buttons for people? And since when does being able to FRC easier make you good at Guilty Gear? I thought you would be good at the game because you could make good decisions, had good fundamentals, could read situations well...all those sorts of things that make fighting games 2 player games.

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all i know is next time they're playing casuals at my offline scene I'm picking justice and hopping in. hold down the macro and mash 22 right? got it

scumbag here.

The optimal strategy is probably to hold S + PKS and mash 22 to unleash a stream of P and K missiles, only releasing the S button if you want to deploy S missile to catch jump-ins/air-approaches which there will be one inevitably.

Enforcing a Justice-specific macro ban is pretty simple. They play Justice? No macros. I imagine the pad player Justice audience that will attend GG tournaments (GG tournaments today already being a small audience) will be next to none, so it won't be much of an issue in the first place. However if they do play on pad and play Justice, they'll do a button check and I guess it's up to TO's or pool runners or even just the players in the tournament (soft ban) to say "make sure you don't have any macros mapped."

Spotting a macro-abusing Justice should be very easy. If there's more than one grenade on the same trajectory (the only time this might be confusing is between S and D grenade, but then again D grenade is insanely situational), they're using macros. Plain and simple. It's completely impossible to do otherwise unless you pause the game.

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I was going to post a lenghty wall of text about why banning macross is a ridiculous idea (and stupid i may add) but 4r5, Amadeous, Digital Watches, Dusk Thanatos, Eshi & shtkn already pointd almost everything that i wanted to say.

So i only want to say props to who posted intelligent stuff and boo to all the retards who love to live with archaic ideas of lol ban anything that is not on arcades or the people who overract and want to ban anything that rustle their jimmies before seeing if is really an issue or not.

This thread mostly has served to show who lack any sort of coherent reasoning.

I bet that if it were for you, you will have baned all the console characters on BB or SF4 when they were not available on arcades or roll cancelling on CVS2

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Sorry no my post is the best in the thread. Because I am the best/perfect example. I HAD to teach myself to play on something else. I used to play on arcade stick, then I physically no longer couldnt. And I STILL won tournaments even years after I stopped playing games till it physically just became impossible to travel. You guys have no excuse that beats that. You guys are trying to say that its alienating "pad players"(which obviously it doesnt since I retaught myself how to PLAY video games on pad) or "newer" players.. Seriously... Whats worse being a new player or a player on disablity. Did anyone EVER give me any free rides? How about players on disability get one button moves period. Im trying to level the playing field because I dont think its fair that you are catering to certain players but what about people like me? The whole idea of banning it only for justice is absolutely silly as well. And no people do use macros for sticks to not just pad come on. I havnt agreed on anything either so not sure what that comment is about. Also please lets not get into a debate about whats impossible on pad. Or that something is damn near impossible when I have to deal with youtube comments all the time on my video about how I do fake combos that are impossible in my videos. And I do those on pad, no macros, fucked up hands. You guys dont have any excuse. Lets not get into any argument with my about execution and what can be done either. Cuz ive prooved what can be done on pad before. 1 button being 3 buttons is not the same. And obviously being able to FRC easier makes you a a better player WTF. If being able to do something easier doenst make you better then why do you guys want macros then lol because it makes you worse? lol what? Execution is part of what makes you good at games. Thats why you have shitty people all the time that post on forums and they talk a good game can talk strats but once they get in tournaments, they lose first round because they cant do the stuff they say and dont actually have the skill in games. Having knowledge about games and the skill to do it as well are to different things. Not everyone has that. Thats part of what makes good players good. Because they can do both.

I dont care if people macro when playing casually or whatever.. but when your going to a tournament you should not. Its bullshit and you guys have no excuse. Also that last comment about banning console characters.. um do people allow EX characters in tournaments now? To my knowledge they dont. I guess you guys just like to pick and choose what ever fits.

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So now I have a question since I have not been following the majors for some time.

I assume US/Europe still fields teams for SBO from tourney qualifiers, so what happens when a pad player qualifies? Do they simply not go, or do they end up committing epic fail when they're forced to play on arcade cab with no macros?

The transition from US Happ stick to Japanese was very rough back in my day; I imagine that it would be worse for pad+macro -> Japanese arcade cab.

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