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Shinjin

[AC+R BUG] Abusing button macros to get negative edge inputs during every single frame

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in the usa blue revo qualifiers, they banned pads because the japanese tournament was played on arcade cabs.

i don't recall any ruling on macros on sticks

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I think going character specific bans is the absolute wrong choice. There's just too much potential for drama and confusion because it will be up to individuals who probably don't have enough total knowledge (let's face it, there's 25 characters and 625 matchups) to decide whether or not a character with macros enabled is broken or not.

"Baiken is too stupid with Macros." "No, it's fair, you still have to input the 421." "Justice double missile wall is too strong." "No, it only improves her already good matchups." "I can't hit Michael Sword/Tatami FRC on pad without a Macro!" "Too bad, play a character that has macros enabled." "Why is the Axl player allowed to infinitely negative edge his counters on block/wakeup with a macro when I, the Justice player, cannot?"

This thread is more or less proof that we can't agree on the majority of really basic things, so the further you go into it, the worse it will get. Believe me, going character specific is not a compromise that will help at all.

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So now I have a question since I have not been following the majors for some time.

I assume US/Europe still fields teams for SBO from tourney qualifiers, so what happens when a pad player qualifies? Do they simply not go, or do they end up committing epic fail when they're forced to play on arcade cab with no macros?

The transition from US Happ stick to Japanese was very rough back in my day; I imagine that it would be worse for pad+macro -> Japanese arcade cab.

i think all the qualifiers run in the us were done on arcades

dunno about the europe ones

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Macros aren't only for Justice btw. They help nearly the entire cast do frame-perfect links/reversals etc. As msong has said, first frame possible Robo-dash. Frame perfect pile bunker. Bad moon/Yozansen. Double butterfly. etc. etc. The list can go on as macro technology develops. Not only that but it also makes some of combos easy as fuck. There is a clear advantage to players using macros and you are only crippling yourself or making things harder for yourself if you don't abuse it. Most people don't want to relearn random shit using macros because there are environments where they can't do it.

btw

PROPS TO SUCKING OTHER PEOPLE'S DICKS WHILE CONTRIBUTING NOTHING TO THE THREAD

lol hey this guy is in favor of banning macros, he must love to ban all kinds of random shit!

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I'm not sure about how to deal with any small events, but putting this in place for majors doesn't seem like that bad of an idea (macro ban, I mean). The vast majority of people that show up for those things frequent DL or SRK, and we shouldn't have to begin to worry about shoo'ing away pad or new players with that. Well, it might still be an issue for pad players, but 90% of the pad players I know don't use macros...

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I think going character specific bans is the absolute wrong choice. There's just too much potential for drama and confusion because it will be up to individuals who probably don't have enough total knowledge (let's face it, there's 25 characters and 625 matchups) to decide whether or not a character with macros enabled is broken or not.

"Baiken is too stupid with Macros." "No, it's fair, you still have to input the 421." "Justice double missile wall is too strong." "No, it only improves her already good matchups." "I can't hit Michael Sword/Tatami FRC on pad without a Macro!" "Too bad, play a character that has macros enabled." "Why is the Axl player allowed to infinitely negative edge his counters on block/wakeup with a macro when I, the Justice player, cannot?"

This thread is more or less proof that we can't agree on the majority of really basic things, so the further you go into it, the worse it will get. Believe me, going character specific is not a compromise that will help at all.

I agree with this. Character specific macro ban is not an answer because other characters then get to use the glitch to have access to things that the Justice player is not allowed.

I can already think of Ky doing a perpetual FB greed sever/block option select to call out all lows in a block string without having to think or predict them, which strikes me as dumb. Whereas if I didn't have a macro I could only attempt that once in a blockstring so I would actually have to call it out. Why would I be allowed to do that whereas Justice can't use the glitch to do her stuff?

On a personal level it doesn't matter to me either way since I'm semi-retired and playing only for fun nowadays anyway; just be consistent in allowing them/not allowing them and keeping in mind that we will be playing a different game from Japan if they are allowed.

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I agree with this. Character specific macro ban is not an answer because other characters then get to use the glitch to have access to things that the Justice player is not allowed.

I can already think of Ky doing a perpetual FB greed sever/block option select to call out all lows in a block string without having to think or predict them, which strikes me as dumb. Whereas if I didn't have a macro I could only attempt that once in a blockstring so I would actually have to call it out. Why would I be allowed to do that whereas Justice can't use the glitch to do her stuff?

On a personal level it doesn't matter to me either way since I'm semi-retired and playing only for fun nowadays anyway; just be consistent in allowing them/not allowing them and keeping in mind that we will be playing a different game from Japan if they are allowed.

if people start figuring out autopilot option selects using macros... yeah, macros should probably get the shit banned out of them. I don't want that to happen to GG ;-; still inclined to wait and see if it becomes a problem instead of preempt, though

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I agree with this. Character specific macro ban is not an answer because other characters then get to use the glitch to have access to things that the Justice player is not allowed.

I can already think of Ky doing a perpetual FB greed sever/block option select to call out all lows in a block string without having to think or predict them, which strikes me as dumb. Whereas if I didn't have a macro I could only attempt that once in a blockstring so I would actually have to call it out. Why would I be allowed to do that whereas Justice can't use the glitch to do her stuff?

On a personal level it doesn't matter to me either way since I'm semi-retired and playing only for fun nowadays anyway; just be consistent in allowing them/not allowing them and keeping in mind that we will be playing a different game from Japan if they are allowed.

Okay, you can mash 214 during a blockstring while holding macros to call out any lows. I'll just throw out lows that recover fast enough or use mids and highs in my blockstring. Mashing out frame-perfect reversals is not a matter of execution, it's a matter of making a decision. Even if there's some perfect player out there that can mash Volcanic Viper any time the opponent leaves a gap, guess what, it's his opponent's fault if he loses to that; they should've been baiting the DP.

As for people arguing that using the macro glitch to make combos and links easier to do: so fucking what? All these things you list like Grab -> Gamma Blade, these are things players already do with consistency. 1F links are nothing new in fighting games. So I ask why is it such an unfair advantage that they're made easier? It's not like landing that 1F link in a combo (especially Guilty Gear) automatically wins you the match. If you want to try to use the macro glitch to do 1F special links easier go ahead! I'll be assuming most players grind training mode enough where they can do that anyway so nothing changes to me!

And like I said earlier; A character-specific ban should obviously only be put in place if that character's communities agree to it. If Baiken and Justice communities say "Hey uh if you're gonna ban macros for us then we'd rather not play" or something, then fine! We look at banning macros across the board OR not banning them at all, and put a softban on them for those characters. And considering a softban has been on macros for years judging by some of the responses in this topic, that isn't anything new.

P.S.: Honest question, just trying to make sure. I've been to a lot of majors in the past 2 years or so, and I know I'm new to the GG scene. How many people who are arguing "macros need to be banned" have actually gone to a tournament outside of their scene in the past couple years? I know this mentality is a regional thing, but I can say I've never seen a tournament held in the MW to ban macros, and I'm pretty sure the EC doesn't either. So why is this a big deal that macros should have never been unbanned?

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Even if there's some perfect player out there that can mash Volcanic Viper any time the opponent leaves a gap, guess what, it's his opponent's fault if he loses to that; they should've been baiting the DP.

I don't mean to be rude, but I'm pretty sure you don't know how absurd it is dealing with that first-hand for an extensive period of time. I shouldn't make assumptions on this but your comment on the topic just leaves me convinced you haven't.

P.S.: Honest question, just trying to make sure. I've been to a lot of majors in the past 2 years or so, and I know I'm new to the GG scene. How many people who are arguing "macros need to be banned" have actually gone to a tournament outside of their scene in the past couple years? I know this mentality is a regional thing, but I can say I've never seen a tournament held in the MW to ban macros, and I'm pretty sure the EC doesn't either. So why is this a big deal that macros should have never been unbanned?

Unless you just came into the topic (which you haven't) just like I have (but I read everything) you would remember that it started as a general topic, then focused on how abuseive it could be for JU, then everyone else, and the actions we can take to prevent it. A number of people have voted we keep it in and learn how to deal with it (ahahaha) and to see if it becomes a real problem, while the other group of peeps have been posting how we should ban something, no matter how we do it.

TL;DR: Nobody wants to sit under a bomb-wall because when you are put into it you don't get out. As a Justice player that has done extensive testing I have found there are maybe three characters that can begin to deal with this. Emphasis on maybe.

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What 4r5 said is right, what Dusk Thanatos said is right, what Digital Watches said is right, what shtkn said is right, what I've been saying is right.

Reading this makes me feel uncomfortable. But that's just be being fuzzy and sensitive. Anyways, a few things:

I actually think some of the things Final Shadow says are good points, but most people are ignoring what he says due to the presentation of his posts and the fact that he comes off as a giant troll at first glance.

I'd rather see people argue less about why banning macros is FUNDEMENTALLY wrong, and see a discussion about regardless of whether its right or wrong, why we need to be making a compromise in order to preserve a community. I personally think that if all we cared about was objectively constructing the fairest best etc etc tournament, macros should be banned. But whether or not you agree with that, I do agree that COMPROMISES can be made in order to say, not "dick out" pad players etc.

I don't think this is the BEST solution but I notice it hasn't been mentioned yet: What if you leave the decision up to the players - any player can ask the opponent whether they're allowed to use pad macros or not. The choice is individual, you don't have to monitor anything. Just a random thought, not really pushing for it or anything...

BUT it does make one think - earlier in the thread a lot of people mentioned things like "well the shortcut is kind of scumbag but I won't be using it and I think we can trust everyone to not use it". If that's the case and we're working on the honor system, I see no problem with enforcing that by allowing opponents to make the ban / allow decision, because surely they'll trust you and give you the okay. Or do you think people would just say no every time? If so, I feel like that is pretty proportional to the amount of people who would just use the hold-down glitch all the time. And if that is the case...

I'm interested in a possibility in which all pad AND all stick players just have an extra macro button for the sake of shortcuts etc. I feel like the meta for the game would change drastically, and whether or not it's manageable or not, I do feel like this does veer far from the arcade version - something I personally wouldn't want but that is simply my opinion.

Not trying to push my opinion onto others, but I haven't been seeing a lot of variance in what's been said in the thread recently.

Edit:

TL;DR: Nobody wants to sit under a bomb-wall because when you are put into it you don't get out. As a Justice player that has done extensive testing I have found there are maybe three characters that can begin to deal with this. Emphasis on maybe.

I thought you were making a metaphor with the bomb-wall; then I realized you were being literall and I laughed at my self :D

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I don't think this is the BEST solution but I notice it hasn't been mentioned yet: What if you leave the decision up to the players - any player can ask the opponent whether they're allowed to use pad macros or not. The choice is individual, you don't have to monitor anything. Just a random thought, not really pushing for it or anything...

someone already mentioned that forcing this issue onto the players is just begging to start some drama. I agree. This is definitely something that needs a black-or-white answer.

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If we're talking about soft-banning the whole thing, why would it be that big of an issue? The only case it would be an "issue" in would be dealing with bomb-walls, like dealing with Akuma in STurbo. JP doesn't even ban him, to my understanding.

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i use macros. i cant play pad without macros. i still feel like a ban would be justified.

a conclusion has to be reached on whether to allow them or not. i like brett's suggestion, since the capability exists on stick it isnt exactly an "unfair advantage" to allow it, thus making the problem the discrepancy between arcade and console.

well im going to abuse the shit out of this until a conclusion is reached.

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i use macros. i cant play pad without macros. i still feel like a ban would be justified.

Belated, but likewise.

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Brett's suggestion would be fine with me, so long as everyone is relatively educated about the glitch.

Here's some points I want to make about my argument (banning macros for Justice and arguably Baiken, letting it rock for other characters):

-It affects the least number of players.

-Players that are affected can learn to play without using macros to FRC.

-Using the Negative Edge Glitch with the macro is a minimal impact to high level play (regarding frame 1 reversals, linking combos, etc); It's not a true 1 frame as timing is still involved for the directional input, along with the decision (in the case of a reversal) being made.

-Many players that join tournaments would have no idea why and would not understand why macros are banned, alienating them from tournament play.

-It is unfair to Justice (and maybe Baiken) players. However, it's unfair to more players to ban macros across the board.

-It sets a precedence of debating on what is "too strong" or affects the game too much if more uses for the macro glitch are found.

And that's the points I can think of re: banning macro use for specific characters. I'm gonna drop out of this thread for a bit and think things out a bit more, but I'm going to stick with this proposal.

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Yeah this bug is really OP for baiken in particular.

She could already get out of okizeme using 4121 motion on wakeup, but not completely safe.

Previously as an example, Baiken is knocked down and inputs 4121 (input for counter and hold down back). She wakes up blocking down back. The next frame she presses 2S to attempt a Sakura counter. You cancel your 2S with a second button (P or K) in case you didn't end up countering. You then release the S button of your FD and get another attempt to sakura if you blocked after starting your FD. This will achieve two quick inputs for her guard cancel. If you held your FD for 3 frames you get 1f blocking > 1f counter attempt/vulnerability > 3f FDing > counter attempt(safe).

You can then go to up back and pressing your counter button again for a 1f jump. Full input> 4121S>1f>K>>7S

If you choose to use this bug you can just input 4121 and hold the macro button. Completely safe counter attempt that will beat out the majority of meaties in the game. It is weak to low hit stop moves and many projectiles. Some characters have basically no oki on her because of this.

edit- after actually trying to use the bug, I don't think it really impacts much. Baiken special priority is zakuro > mawarikomi > sakura so you have to hold the extra buttons while you hold the macro anyways, it's not that useful. Zakuro just isn't a universal counter like Youshijin was and mawarikomi isn't great for this. Don't worry though, counters are still OP.

As for youzansen, you usually don't want a 9f youzansen since a little extra height gives her more time to confirm for the RC tatami and it has landing recovery now anyways.

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Just out of curiosity, has anyone actually reported to this to ASW? >_>

Best resolution is just that they patch it out.

if they aren't even going to give us random music back in ps3 version what's the chances of them fixing this

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I just want to see this break the game in half before I vote to ban macros.

Go to tournaments, tear it up with Justice and Baiken and whoever. I wanna see how bad it is in practice. I'm genuinely intrigued.

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From that perspective, it might open up new game options and actually make it better somehow. Like how clap loop made Carl better in CT.

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Xrd website says that Xrd console in 2014. This glitch is just a small blip.

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