[AC+R BUG] Abusing button macros to get negative edge inputs during every single frame

[brett_]

I just want to see this break the game in half before I vote to ban macros.

Go to tournaments, tear it up with Justice and Baiken and whoever. I wanna see how bad it is in practice. I'm genuinely intrigued.

Just did today. Won the ranbat with Justice - don't even play the character.

[Dusk Thanatos]

One day isn't enough to see if there's literally no options against it.

I'm not saying it's promising, but you need to exhaust all possibilities of a counter.

[TheRealBobMan]

Is it really that big of a deal for Justice? She still has nearly a second of cooldown on her nukes unless you FRC, which costs meter so it's restricted. Maybe I'm spoiled since I can HCL her in the face if she gets too nuke happy and doesn't use 6P once in a while to dodge it, but I would think most characters have a way to deal with it. I mean, her regular nuke spam is annoying and hard to deal with, but I wouldn't expect that having more than one of the same nuke out would be as bad as Baiken doing a counter while you're frozen in hit-pause and unable to move.

And even that would require prediction to really do well, though it's way easier with this bug than without it.

I just want to see this break the game in half before I vote to ban macros.

Go to tournaments, tear it up with Justice and Baiken and whoever. I wanna see how bad it is in practice. I'm genuinely intrigued.

Yeah, I remember a guy in the Smash community who decided to get that planking crap banned by doing it until players realized how stupid it was. It kinda worked, though they had to come up with a sort of silly compromise to enforce it. Letting go of the ledge and regrabbing it before the invincibility from touching it goes away is somewhat ok because how can you draw the line at when you're doing it for positioning or for staling? So you can do it up to X times in a match without getting DQ'd (which is fucking dumb, but whatever, play Melee instead of Brawl). Gotta respect the level of stubbornness that guy had though.

I think most players are scared to even use Dimensional Cape because they don't want to get accused of using the glitch that extends how long you're invincible since it's banned for enabling stalling.

Actually, I have a question. If you hold down a macro button, does it count as holding both buttons down, or only register negative edge inputs? If I hold back while holding a button mapped to P+K, will I faultless? I'd check but I need to do some stuff before I go to bed.

[Dusk Thanatos]

Actually, I have a question. If you hold down a macro button, does it count as holding both buttons down, or only register negative edge inputs? If I hold back while holding a button mapped to P+K, will I faultless? I'd check but I need to do some stuff before I go to bed.

You'll faultless.

[Chrome Homura]

I just want to see this break the game in half before I vote to ban macros.

Go to tournaments, tear it up with Justice and Baiken and whoever. I wanna see how bad it is in practice. I'm genuinely intrigued.

Really, this. My main doesn't gain jack shit from negative edge, and I'll be damned if someone tries to tell me I need to alter my button setup (or my personal favorite, "buy a stick lol") just to suit their pissy needs. Macros are what keep pad players not named finalshowdown alive, and it sickens me to see this kind of BS threatening that.

[The Katz]

Is it really that big of a deal for Justice?

Maybe you should watch the Jake videos again.

One day isn't enough to see if there's literally no options against it.

I'm not saying it's promising, but you need to exhaust all possibilities of a counter.

Someone make a theory-thread for how to deal with it in the Justice sub-forums?

[floatwater]

I just want to see this break the game in half before I vote to ban macros.

Go to tournaments, tear it up with Justice and Baiken and whoever. I wanna see how bad it is in practice. I'm genuinely intrigued.

Pretty much this, like how people in the Injustice community debated about banning scorpion then WOOOOOAHHH HE DIDN'T WIN A TOUNREY. They kept him in.

[qwerty]

I'm actually quite confident that Justice will be winning American tournaments whether this gets banned or not.

[Hellmonkey]

Really, this. My main doesn't gain jack shit from negative edge, and I'll be damned if someone tries to tell me I need to alter my button setup (or my personal favorite, "buy a stick lol") just to suit their pissy needs. Macros are what keep pad players not named finalshowdown alive, and it sickens me to see this kind of BS threatening that.

The game is designed to be played on a joystick. There are a lot of inputs in GG that are unnecessarily difficult on pad or keyboard compared to joystick, you practically never have the same level of control with a d-pad or controller analog stick that you get with your wrist and a ball top.

The macros are there for convenience but don't exist in the arcade version of the game that Guilty Gear is designed for. Pressing multiple buttons at once is a very fundamental part of GG (fautless defense, roman cancel, option selecting) .

If the macros were to be banned it would be because they affect the game too much when abused. If you can't accept why this might be necessary, just don't enter the tournaments that ban macros.

I haven't seen anywhere close to enough evidence to actually ban it yet though.

[Amadeous]

I'm actually quite confident that Justice will be winning American tournaments whether this gets banned or not.

Nah, I think we have enough Axl and Dizzy players around to keep that from happening at least.

[Essay]

Thought of the day: Macro Justice mirrors will kill all the hype this game built up for its viewerbase. So far here it's devolving into the first Justice who gets advantage locking the other down with alternating K and S missiles which are uninterruptable for an eternity until the defending Justice builds enough meter for the invulnerable super. Then players alternate back and forth "strategically" until supers are spent at which point the missiles start back up again and the match is feasibly decided if it doesn't manage to linger on to another set of supers.

Do we really expect people to watch this paceless shit? Because these mirrors are going to become very common very fast....

[ElvenShadow]

My thoughts:

I've been playing this game since it came out in arcade and still do. That is how the real game is played. Console only bugs this abusable have no place in tournaments and anyone who would actually rely on this to win deserves no respect. Marvel 2 glitches are different because they are universal to all versions and even some glitches were banned in that game.

I used to be a pad player and learned stick. When GGXX came out I played using a different config and learned the proper config in a week. If pad players want to remain pad players, why not just learn a new config? Put HS as a shoulder button and D as a face button. Then pressing 2 face buttons with your thumb and the shoulder button with index finger at same time isn't even hard! Then there's no reason for macros! I say I lean towards banning it honestly.

[mAceOfHearts]

As a pad player, I use macros mainly for bursts, cancels and faultless defense. If macros were banned,it would be annoying to learn how to use those without the macros, sure, but it's preferable to having to deal with all the stuff pointed out in this thread.

[Yonasu]

To me it seems like this bug is banworthy. Having a frameperfekt negative edge input available at all times is very, very useful. It enables alot of strategies that I believe will break the game if someone designs stragies around it.

As a slayer player one example immediatly comes to mind: 1, Using it to get perfekt reversal dandysteps when blockstun ends. If you think you can do this no matter what normal you FD/IB/normal block then kudos. I would say that all the different timings in blockstrings and difference in blockstun makes this a very difficult feat. If you give me the ability to just time the stick inputs with a continuous negative edge input it makes it way easier. Imagine attempting this without the macro. You have to repress the button in between each attempt which makes it alot more vulnerable in many ways. It takes away the decision to attempt it from the gameplay as you have way less risk involved in doing so.

This applies to each character with a reversal option that doesnt use the forward input in its motion. And no matter how frustrating execution can be I do believe it is a part of the game that makes the game so satisfying when you actually manage to pull it of in a highpressure situation.

Not that I think it matters but I played the game for atleast 2½ years on pad with the standard buttonlayout and it worked fine.

TLDR: To me this bug warps the gameplay and the options for pretty much every character and that makes it banworthy for tournaments.

[Dusk Thanatos]

I would like to repeat: if you think making it so that people can more consistently do things that they already can do is broken, the game was broken in the first place.

About the only thing banworthy so far is the Justice glitch, and that's because it seems like you can get more missiles on the screen than performing the glitch without the macro. I don't know if that's actually been confirmed or not yet, though.

[SuperJ]

...

100% reliable fully invincible startup bdc dot :|

[Amadeous]

How does having a button input on every frame make doing inputs for perfect timing BDCs during opponent's pressure any easier? Please. Explain this.

[faultydefense]

you can roll the stick from down to back(xN) and hit the macro and execute the special the instant you come out of blockstun.

I was always kinda proud to play gear, a game known for high execution and knowledge barriers and I don't see how "doing something they could already do" is an argument. Live and die by the frames man, if you can't time it, hold back. I probably won't learn it for NEC because I'd like this to be banned in the future and I don't want to waste the effort, but if this is actually allowed then I will be putting in the time to master abusing this glitch. I sure as hell don't want to play against a baiken that has this and any kind of patience.

I would gladly though allow someone who asked me to set a needed command if he asked me during a tournament. If he managed to fake act a scrub through an entire tournament and still abuse the glitch in a non-obvious way he fuckin earned it.

[SuperJ]

macro bug doesn't let you reversal backdash any easier ofc but it guarantees fastest dot/bite/whatever when you jump cancel out of backdash. any later and the bdc invincibility wears off before the super flash

[Essay]

I would like to repeat: if you think making it so that people can more consistently do things that they already can do is broken, the game was broken in the first place.

I can't agree with this logic. This isn't some Platonic ideal we're talking about where the only thing that matters is the final abstraction. Everything that is conceivably possible in this game doesn't just weigh in equally on the meta. We're talking about a game where execution is part of how we calculate risk and reward. We're talking about a game as the community plays it, not as it imagines it could be played.

I don't know about your local GG scene, but a player from mine is going as far as moving to Kyoto next week where he fully intends to try and compete at A-cho. He is interested in this because this is an international game, with an international standard and community. He shouldn't have to play one game when visiting Japan and a completely different one when in Canada. Anything but a full ban on this macro risks fragmenting the community and de-standardizing the experience.

[Essay]

macro bug doesn't let you reversal backdash any easier ofc but it guarantees fastest dot/bite/whatever when you jump cancel out of backdash. any later and the bdc invincibility wears off before the super flash

Would that work well with DOT? If the macro is repeating the S-input, I think you're going to get S.Dandy Step before you complete the 632146 input. This glitch might not help every character equally due to the way some characters' inputs overlap.

[SuperJ]

it works, you can't input specials before jump cancelling and dot > s dandy in terms of input priority

i wish dot was still 0-frame after the flash. unreactable fdc crossup dots could have been a thing lol

[ehuangsan]

I would like to repeat: if you think making it so that people can more consistently do things that they already can do is broken, the game was broken in the first place.

As Essay noted, execution risk is a major component in FGs even at the top levels, and factoring in reward for executing something really difficult for some situation versus risk of death should one shank the execution is fairly basic.

Even Daigo refrains from DPing/parrying during some loose blockstrings where he almost certainly knows what the next poke is, unless he feels like he has no choice (see the infamous KO/Daigo 3S vids).

[TheRealBobMan]

I would like to repeat: if you think making it so that people can more consistently do things that they already can do is broken, the game was broken in the first place.

About the only thing banworthy so far is the Justice glitch, and that's because it seems like you can get more missiles on the screen than performing the glitch without the macro. I don't know if that's actually been confirmed or not yet, though.

Eh... Justice can get more than one of the same missile on screen. That's the issue. Timing the next missile as fast as possible might only save a few frames if a player is skilled enough, and with nearly a second of cooldown after launching a missile if she doesn't FRC, I don't see it being a big deal. Maybe I'm just spoiled because I play I-No and have answers to nuke spam that other characters don't have.

Baiken guaranteed counters during block-pause sounds scarier, but I have less information about what's happening there. My understanding is she can act while you're in the frozen state of hit/block pause where both characters normally can't move, and being able to do it reliably and frame perfect makes it dangerous. Though even then, some degree of prediction is required for those lvl 1 moves since they tend to start faster than you can react to. Using a slow non jump cancelable H (or any slow to start move during a block string) on Baiken* (edit originally said Justice like an idiot) is begging to get countered anyway.

I'd like to elaborate more, but my work breaks are limited. I'll try to give a good post during my dinner break?

[Rhannmah]

I don't see why we're even having a debate about this. Do we allow players to use turbo controllers? No? Well, why would this be any different? Macros need to be banned unfortunately, because there's no way to know if someone's abusing them or not if they are on. And then there's Justice, whose gameplay gets completely broken by them. This is coming from a pad player who plays I-No at high execution levels without marcos, so there are ways to play this game without having to resort to macros, even the most difficult characters.