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Shinjin

[AC+R BUG] Abusing button macros to get negative edge inputs during every single frame

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I shouldn't have to completely re-learn a button layout because of a dumb glitch that hardly affects my character.

Imagine if you had to completely relearn your stick layout for Faust because of Burst Cancelling that Jam can do. That would be pretty stupid don't you think? It's not fair. I'm just suggesting we all reach a compromise so we affect the least number of people possible. Will it suck for them? You bet. There's no perfect solution here.

I can tell you right now I can re-learn how to FRC with 3 buttons on pad no problem. Hell, Jam doesn't even really have any FRCs that are hard to hit on pad other than 236P, and that I'll just learn how to FRC with S, K, and H instead of P, K, and S like I do now. That's not a problem. But being told I'm a worse player or cheating or lazy because I've learned how to use a macro that was built into the game for players in my situation to use?

Well, if that's the attitude I'm going to face at Frosty Faustings, I'm rethinking on going this year.

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I can tell you right now I can re-learn how to FRC with 3 buttons on pad no problem. Hell, Jam doesn't even really have any FRCs that are hard to hit on pad other than 236P, and that I'll just learn how to FRC with S, K, and H instead of P, K, and S like I do now. That's not a problem. But being told I'm a worse player or cheating or lazy because I've learned how to use a macro that was built into the game for players in my situation to use?

Well, if that's the attitude I'm going to face at Frosty Faustings, I'm rethinking on going this year.

It was built into the game so you could hit more buttons with one finger, not so you could assign a new turbo button. That was not intended. We are not telling saying you are a worse player (except that one guy) or lazy, we are saying it deteriorates the entire game as a whole. You made the choice to assign macros and use a custom layout. When you turn the game on they are not set up like that. that is something no one but you could control or predict. People generally set up their stick layout to match the arcade layout. Unfortunately this new evidence means we cannot simply allow things to be as they have been.

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so back to like the first page of this thread.. did people ever test how it busted it is in tournaments on a wide-scale yet?

i'd ban it myself but i think people should let ir run for a while and see how dumb it would be first...

it was soft-banned last tourney here, like you had to ask if you could use macros lol

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it was soft-banned last tourney here, like you had to ask if you could use macros lol

this...again...i'd totally trust you ama if you asked me to use macros :D

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I already said this like 3 times but no one seems to be listening or replying to what I said so I will type it in all caps like a douche bag

PAD PLAYERS!!! WHY CAN'T YOU JUST MAP HS TO A SHOULDER BUTTON AND DUST TO A FACE BUTTON ON YOUR PAD SO THAT YOU CAN EASILY PRESS ALL 3 AT THE SAME TIME FOR FRCS!?! IT SERIOUSLY WILL TAKE YOU LIKE A WEEK TO GET USED TO IF YOU REALLY GIVE A SHIT ABOUT PLAYING THIS GAME COMPETITIVELY! THEN WE CAN JUST BAN THIS STUPID GLITCH AND MACROS AND GO BACK TO PLAYING THE GAME AS IT WAS INTENDED

my friend plays this button setup, it works very effectively with no macros, so its a viable solution if things do get banned and people still want to play pad.

personally, if i had to stray from a basic face button layout on pad, i would just switch to stick, so its a no go for me~

I shouldn't have to completely re-learn a button layout because of a dumb glitch that hardly affects my character.

it seems really shitty, but its really not that hard. at the end of the day its largely preference, im sure you could learn something else.

anyways, im pretty much saying i really disagree. i wouldnt put my own preference in a control scheme over competitive balance lol

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It was built into the game so you could hit more buttons with one finger, not so you could assign a new turbo button. That was not intended. We are not telling saying you are a worse player (except that one guy) or lazy, we are saying it deteriorates the entire game as a whole. You made the choice to assign macros and use a custom layout. When you turn the game on they are not set up like that. that is something no one but you could control or predict. People generally set up their stick layout to match the arcade layout. Unfortunately this new evidence means we cannot simply allow things to be as they have been.

By that one guy do you mean... Me! *blushes* thanks :cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::kitty::kitty::kitty::kitty::kitty:

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Just to clarify;

People mentioned that "Outside of the Justice glitch, it's impossible to tell if someone is using macros." Well that's only kinda true. If you're holding down the macros you HAVE to be FDing unless you have no meter (which means you can't backdash either), so if a Baiken player is FDing a bunch and 1f countering all your moves they're PROBABLY using a macro. And since FDing pushes out more this means stuff like mashing VV out of it isn't so great cause it might whiff (which can be played around of course).

Thank you for bringing up Baiken, I haven't understood how she has been sneaking under the radar of discussion here. Without the macro glitch, immediately just-frame countering a blocked move tends to require her to commit to a button with "parry timing" before she can react to a block, no? (This would result in a normal coming out if anything goes wrong.) With the macro glitch, the commitment to a button is taken away, and, like you said, she only ends up flashing FD a bunch. After being hard punished for letting her simply block a normal, how wouldn't this act of flashing FD at her opponent alone completely warp and alter the neutral game against her, discouraging pressure like never before? Wouldn't the only moves that could bait this be level 1 moves whose Active + Recovery frames add up to less than 11? That alone completely warps the majority of characters' effective footsie distance against Baiken.

Of these 1000 players, we'll say 300 of them play on pad.

I also want to take issue with the idea of 30% of competitive Guilty Gear players playing on pad, if only because it differs drastically from what I have seen in my region. (I say "competitive" meaning players who might come out to tournaments and gatherings, for whom a competitive ban effects.) In the last year, I have split my time between two cities with healthy GG scenes, Ottawa and Montreal, and have been introduced to at least 60 who play GG enough that they get something out of gathers. Between these two cities, I have met 6, maybe 7, pad players (circa. 10% here). This is with community-pillar Rhannmah repping macro-free pad I-no with max-damage combos, and, not to flatter him, but clearly being looked up to and inspiring other pad players in Montreal. Still only about 10% pad players. I don't mean to nitpit your figures; just taking the opportunity to present data from the field.

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That's fine Essay, and I appreciate that. I was giving a general 30% based off of my own experiences. I've met a lot of other pad players who play competitively, as you say, so I may have been a bit high with the number, but that doesn't refute my point. There are a lot more pad players that use macros than Justice players that use macros. I feel it's a fair compromise to ban macros specifically for Justice.

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I shouldn't have to completely re-learn a button layout because of a dumb glitch that hardly affects my character.

Imagine if you had to completely relearn your stick layout for Faust because of Burst Cancelling that Jam can do. That would be pretty stupid don't you think? It's not fair. I'm just suggesting we all reach a compromise so we affect the least number of people possible. Will it suck for them? You bet. There's no perfect solution here.

I can tell you right now I can re-learn how to FRC with 3 buttons on pad no problem. Hell, Jam doesn't even really have any FRCs that are hard to hit on pad other than 236P, and that I'll just learn how to FRC with S, K, and H instead of P, K, and S like I do now. That's not a problem. But being told I'm a worse player or cheating or lazy because I've learned how to use a macro that was built into the game for players in my situation to use?

Well, if that's the attitude I'm going to face at Frosty Faustings, I'm rethinking on going this year.

Well actually, as I mentioned in another post... when I first started playing guilty gear, I started with GGX on dreamcast. I used pad. I only played against the computer because there was no scene. Flash forward a couple years later. I now am a stick player from learning how to play stick from Marvel 2 and CvS2. GGXX comes out and we start a Chicago scene. I had no idea about the proper button layout at the time so I played default pad config on a stick. After a few months of playing, I realized that this was not the proper default stick config, so I started learning with the proper config. I honestly would say that within one week, I was able to play about just as well with my new config and from then on it got more and more natural. So what I am saying is, is that learning a slightly different config is a minor inconvenience but honestly, you should be able to do it without that much effort. If I can do it, anyone can.

I honestly am not trying to be a dick here and the last thing I want to do is discourage players from coming to Frosty Faustings. But.... I mean... you can see how abuse-able this glitch is right? I am not accusing you of being weak or a cheater or looking for an easy way out or ANYTHING like that. But the problem is, that if I make an exception for you and for someone else, then it means that I have to allow it for EVERYONE. What happens when some jackass decides to learn to abuse that shit and stats beating people under circumstances that in a REAL match under REAL conditions... he would have gotten destroyed? I just hope that you can see where I am coming from here.... I also have been primarily playing on the arcade version of GG for the past 6 years. Stuff like this in my mind just seems outright ridiculous to even consider being allowed! But I understand where you are coming from. So, I am HONESTLY asking you if it is really that out of the question to just try a new config. For the sake of fairness to everyone. You are not being put at a disadvantage by learning a new config. You still have the same buttons and options as everyone else as long as you get used to it before the next big tournament. BUT... if someone plays stick and uses no macros and then they fight some guy who plays on pad and DOES... and that guy (not you) happens to abuse some BS... isnt it way more unfair to the guy who legitimately trained really hard to be able to pull of legit stuff and loses to some jackass who wins by taking the easy way out and abuses something that shouldnt even be in the game in the first place?

Seriously... I am trying to be reasonable here and I dont want the scene to become divided over this. I also dont want our scene being alienated from the Japanese scene by changing the entire mechanics of the game either.

Oh and BTW, I still have not made a final decision on this so nothing is set in stone. I am still hearing everyone out.

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There are a lot more pad players that use macros than Justice players that use macros.

Scarry realisation you just made me have: it's currently the other way around here. xD

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Thank you for bringing up Baiken, I haven't understood how she has been sneaking under the radar of discussion here. Without the macro glitch, immediately just-frame countering a blocked move tends to require her to commit to a button with "parry timing" before she can react to a block, no? (This would result in a normal coming out if anything goes wrong.) With the macro glitch, the commitment to a button is taken away, and, like you said, she only ends up flashing FD a bunch. After being hard punished for letting her simply block a normal, how wouldn't this act of flashing FD at her opponent alone completely warp and alter the neutral game against her, discouraging pressure like never before? Wouldn't the only moves that could bait this be level 1 moves whose Active + Recovery frames add up to less than 11? That alone completely warps the majority of characters' effective footsie distance against Baiken.

Can someone please clarify whether or not Baiken's counters work during block-pause? I'm positive I've read that this is how it works in numerous places on dustloop, but dustloop has been wrong before. Since both characters normally are not moving during block-pause, even a lvl 1 jump cancelable move is not safe if Baiken's timing is correct when starting the counter since Sakura will go active before they can jump+block. Recovery+active frames wont even matter. If they made Baiken's counters faster, maybe they changed how they work without telling anyone. I-No's VCL got changes that weren't mentioned so I wouldn't be surprised.

And can someone confirm whether or not Justice gets to keep using her normals while holding a macro button down to keep nukes on screen? I actually got an answer from a friend yesterday, but since I'm in here and not seeing people posting crucial information about these bugs, it's really hard to take the "this is broke" arguments seriously.

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Can someone please clarify whether or not Baiken's counters work during block-pause? I'm positive I've read that this is how it works in numerous places on dustloop, but dustloop has been wrong before. Since both characters normally are not moving during block-pause, even a lvl 1 jump cancelable move is not safe if Baiken's timing is correct when starting the counter since Sakura will go active before they can jump+block. Recovery+active frames wont even matter. If they made Baiken's counters faster, maybe they changed how they work without telling anyone. I-No's VCL got changes that weren't mentioned so I wouldn't be surprised.

Baiken's guard cancels will activate during hitstop, yes. However, DAAs will not. Meaning, yes, perfect 1-frame Sakura will hit the opponent during hitstop EVERY TIME. level 1 moves have 11f hitstop, Sakura hits on frame 10, you cannot even cancel to an invincible move to get through it. If you are in Sakura range, you WILL be hit by Sakura.

Edit: Just double-checked to make sure, yes it definitely still works this way.

To be clear, you CAN currently do perfect 1-frame counters with Baiken. But the way it's done is by entering 412 ahead of time, going back to block, and hitting the button the frame during the first frame of blockstun - if your timing isn't dead on, you probably get hit, it's an even bigger callout than slashbacking. This reduces this "this pretty much never happens" thing to "this breaks the character right open." It's completely absurd, this should obviously never be allowed in competitive play, it's VASTLY stronger than what Justice gets out of it.

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OK so I just tested the Justice glitch again. You cannot do normals for the button of the missiles that are actively in play. You can have more than one of the same button missile out on the screen at the same time though which should not be possible since you have to hold down the button to keep the missile going before it explodes which is dumb. Essentially this glitch allows you to hold down one button and mash down down down down x 1000 to get an infinite missile pattern going with pretty much no gaps. Anyone who would actually want to rely on such a thing to win should not even be entering tournaments in the first place.

I am no Baiken expert but I also can see how it would be useable for her too. I believe Hellmonkey said that it wasnt that bad though... Can you confirm this dude? Do you honestly think that Baiken doesnt get a significant advantage from being able to use this glitch?

I am trying to think of how to be fair to most players in general. If I was to ban macros for Justice and Baiken only and make them allowed on pad only, do you all think that this is a viable solution?

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it seems that any character can to some extent but baiken and justice have abusable shit that goes beyond what most of the cast can exploit using this glitch. I honestly would just love to believe that everyone would just forget this stupid bug exists because appearently it was around since regular AC console or something and no one just noticed it until now but I just want to prevent the scenario where some dude just decides to abuse the hell out of it and causes some major upset

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I am trying to think about upholding the integrity of the GG community. Honestly though... I dont even give a shit. If anyone wants to take me on using this stupid macros glitch, I am pretty damn sure I will wreck them anyway, because I know that any player who is worth jack shit and deserves any ounce of respect would never abuse something like this to begin with because winning using it would be a personal insult to their own selves and nothing would be achieved aside from cheapening the GG community over some bullshit.

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i-no, eddie, faust, venom off the top of my head don't really get anything from this

as a venom player I am actually pretty cool with getting mad struggle feints for free in every situation I want, actually. It's not much but it's there.

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I'm not at home to test this, but can you hold down HS and a macro buttom to spam slashback? That should be enough of a gamebreak for anyone.

i-no, eddie, faust, venom off the top of my head don't really get anything from this

as a venom player this makes TK mad struggle lower and more reliable. I think it lets eddie do tricks with negative edging that isn't possible without a macro mapped, like attacking with a normal that's supposed to be held down. If nothing else these characters have reversals (except venom). Reversals by themselves are abuseable through this glitch.

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I am trying to think about upholding the integrity of the GG community. Honestly though... I dont even give a shit. If anyone wants to take me on using this stupid macros glitch, I am pretty damn sure I will wreck them anyway, because I know that any player who is worth jack shit and deserves any ounce of respect would never abuse something like this to begin with because winning using it would be a personal insult to their own selves and nothing would be achieved aside from cheapening the GG community over some bullshit.

You know very well there are people who are highly skilled who are also highly obstinate and are eager to use this at any chance they want just to prove a point that it should be banned. In fact, I was just talking to one two days ago, someone whose skill vastly outstrips my own who nevertheless has lately been practicing macro abuse stuff purely to encourage TOs to ban it. And even at a lower level... Sure, maybe random people can't beat the proest of pros in major tourneys. But if it's not banned, it does let people scam local wins in weaker areas, win monthlies they absolutely should not. People will do most anything if they can get some money out of it. Does it cheapen the GG community? Yes, absolutely. Which is the major problem.

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this glitch has brought me the closest I have ever come to wanting to play GG.

granted, not for reasons that would be dear to the real GG community...

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I plan on having a pocket justice to play all friday just to turn people off to this glitch. If thats not enough, i'll be learning Baiken in 2014

this is what i want to see. i think this glitch is dumb and if it were up to my personal feelings i'd ban it/patch it out, but we have a process: everything is valid until its demonstrably shown to break the game in real world scenarios, like HDRemix with Akuma.

the macro glitch very well likely needs a ban, but who knows, maybe it'll just become part of the game like cvs2 roll cancel and p4 SMP loops (though very unlikely imo).

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@FaultyD: no, you can't Negative Edge slashback inputs. You can't SB with this glitch.

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