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Shinjin

[AC+R BUG] Abusing button macros to get negative edge inputs during every single frame

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I'm going to skip a bunch of shit, here. Consider it a concession if you want. Whatever. I'm not getting through to anyone.

Human error is an integral part of life, dude.

I think it's funny that you continuously deny the role of execution. Especially because I know firsthand that even at the highest levels of play, execution matters a whole hell of a lot.

I've played against two of the best Anji players in Japan. In most aspects, they are roughly of equal (and very high) skill. However, I can beat one of those Anji players a lot more than the other. Why is that, you may wonder?

Because one of those Anji players consistently does optimal damage combos, and one of them doesn't. I've asked other players their opinion on these two players as well, and their sentiment echoes mine. Some even think that the Anji player with lower execution has better decision making skills, but will still point to his lackluster damage output as his weakness.

Not necessarily pertinent to the subject of banning glitches that are very obviously gamebreaking, but food for thought.

I know I write forum posts as dense as philosophy papers

and I was a philosophy major, so it comes pretty naturally

, but I repeatedly said execution was a determining factor in the relations between players, i.e., who is better and who is worse. I just don't think execution factors into game balance (i.e., matchups, tiers, power of a character's tools).

Yeah, a bit controversial. There's no reason to ignore the entire Japanese side of our community and the most ambitious of us who actually work their asses off to make it to Japan to play in arcades (see my *insert post* for a current example, which you seem to have not noticed). There's also no reason to assume that it is in anyway difficult to explain this issue to the "new blood". I'm not sure how in touch you are with the aspirant GG players in your region, but the dozen or so of newer players I've dealt with lately tend to come in already accepting that this game is "legit" in the challenge it will provide, but also rewarding for the sense of accomplishment it can foster.

Most of the players I get haven't ever played fighting games before, because there normally isn't a strong, established scene where I try to get people to play.

You really should present this evidence, because it looks as if you have been misinformed, or misinterpreted something along the way.

I've seen players hyped up as absolute execution gods, who can, yes, hit 1-frame links with higher accuracy than the norm. At no point, however, do they approach the levels of "high accuracy" that the macro glitch would allow for.

SFIV arcade.

It looked as if you were under the impression that you'd still have to time the directional input with just-frame timing, but this is not the case. The way Guilty Gear's input buffer system is weighted, directional inputs linger long enough that the macro glitch can save incredible amounts of timing, not to mention focus. (You know, focus: that limited commodity that has a habit of deciding tournaments.)

I can't actually find any info on the buffer system. If that right there is the case, though, then one of my supporting arguments is flat-out wrong.

motion difficulty has balance ramifications because it is difficult (i.e. impossible) to do a spinning pile driver in a single frame

Hitbox.

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Which is just as wrong an assertion. Refer to examples of charge characters, SPD's, etc.

Try thinking of it like this: the only reason you can play a fighting game at all is because of the inputs you're giving the computer, right? So how do you figure the method through which you interact with the game has no effect on how the game is designed?

Hell, there's primarily aesthetic decisions that affect the game tremendously. Do you really think the timer is set to 99 because ArcSys played a bunch of matches with different time limits and decided 99 seconds is just what the game needed?

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Which is just as wrong an assertion. Refer to examples of charge characters, SPD's, etc.

Try thinking of it like this: the only reason you can play a fighting game at all is because of the inputs you're giving the computer, right? So how do you figure the method through which you interact with the game has no effect on how the game is designed?

Hell, there's primarily aesthetic decisions that affect the game tremendously. Do you really think the timer is set to 99 because ArcSys played a bunch of matches with different time limits and decided 99 seconds is just what the game needed?

It changes how I interact with the game, but my exec and everyone else's is irrelevant to the issue of balance. The fact that I can't do gunflame FRC on Sol doesn't make Sol shit; it makes my exec shit. This is balance 101.

Motions can have balance effects, which I covered earlier, but they don't come about because I do them; they come about because the motion forces certain things to happen based on the game system (as discussed earlier, Flash Kick input can charged from a blocking state, because [1]->8 is a legitimate flash kick input). How well I perform a flash kick is irrelevant to that brute fact of the game system.

Fighting game timers actually run on arbitrary units of time, not seconds. Compare the Skullgirls timer, say, to the BB timer. They don't run down at the same speed.

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Baiken's guard cancels will activate during hitstop, yes. However, DAAs will not. Meaning, yes, perfect 1-frame Sakura will hit the opponent during hitstop EVERY TIME. level 1 moves have 11f hitstop, Sakura hits on frame 10, you cannot even cancel to an invincible move to get through it. If you are in Sakura range, you WILL be hit by Sakura.

Edit: Just double-checked to make sure, yes it definitely still works this way.

To be clear, you CAN currently do perfect 1-frame counters with Baiken. But the way it's done is by entering 412 ahead of time, going back to block, and hitting the button the frame during the first frame of blockstun - if your timing isn't dead on, you probably get hit, it's an even bigger callout than slashbacking. This reduces this "this pretty much never happens" thing to "this breaks the character right open." It's completely absurd, this should obviously never be allowed in competitive play, it's VASTLY stronger than what Justice gets out of it.

THANK YOU FOR CONFIRMING THIS HAVE A BAG OF MONEY!!!!

OK so I just tested the Justice glitch again. You cannot do normals for the button of the missiles that are actively in play. You can have more than one of the same button missile out on the screen at the same time though which should not be possible since you have to hold down the button to keep the missile going before it explodes which is dumb. Essentially this glitch allows you to hold down one button and mash down down down down x 1000 to get an infinite missile pattern going with pretty much no gaps. Anyone who would actually want to rely on such a thing to win should not even be entering tournaments in the first place.

THANK YOU FOR CONFIRMING THIS HAVE A FAT FREE YOUGURT!!!

(I hope someone gets the reference)

I agree with ElvenShadow that it's not as strong for Justice as people think, and I'm astonished that more people aren't saying this is broken on Baiken's end. It's something she can already do, but it's way higher risk without this bug. Baiken should be the center of discussion until someone shows more concrete video evidence that this lets Justice break a matchup specifically by letting 2 nukes of the same type stay on the screen. And even in that case, while I'm from a community that would ban stuff to try to make some matchups more fair (stages with walk-off edges in Smash to prevent Fox having 10-0 and 9-1 matchups with infinite waveshine easy kills), if Justice got some really lopsided advantages, I'd still probably tell people to learn another character if they were that stumped by being zoned. Counterpick Pot, use FDB/Slidehead. Problem solved.

Anyway, I'm probably pro-ban after confirming what Baiken can do with this (I still want to see it in action if anyone is dead set on trying to cheese a tournament). Even lvl1 moves are unsafe, and if I remember correctly, RCs come out after hit/block pause ends. Try it with a clean-hit sidewinder. You're almost forced into never using mid attacks, because it's stupid to use anything that Baiken can guarantee blocking if she can guarantee a counter. She can't counter what she can't block, right? Maybe Millia could deal with this, and Pot will probably still have the advantage (did that change in +R?). As much as I'm for letting newbies have an easier time starting out playing on pad, I'd rather tell them to suck it up than expose them to potentially unfun matchups because of the bug.

i-no, eddie, faust, venom off the top of my head don't really get anything from this

I bet Koichi will find something for I-No. And then he'll figure out how to do it without the bug. :v:

I'm going to skip a bunch of shit, here. Consider it a concession if you want. Whatever. I'm not getting through to anyone.

I know I write forum posts as dense as philosophy papers

and I was a philosophy major, so it comes pretty naturally

, but I repeatedly said execution was a determining factor in the relations between players, i.e., who is better and who is worse. I just don't think execution factors into game balance (i.e., matchups, tiers, power of a character's tools).

Which is just as wrong an assertion. Refer to examples of charge characters, SPD's, etc.

Try thinking of it like this: the only reason you can play a fighting game at all is because of the inputs you're giving the computer, right? So how do you figure the method through which you interact with the game has no effect on how the game is designed?

Hell, there's primarily aesthetic decisions that affect the game tremendously. Do you really think the timer is set to 99 because ArcSys played a bunch of matches with different time limits and decided 99 seconds is just what the game needed?

It looks to me like you guys are actually agreeing. Thanatos is saying that difficulty should not be considered a valid way of balancing something strong. Take VV, make it an IK without the GG style penalties, and stick it in another fighting game. Giving it some bogus 45348348348364384 input wont make it fair.

He's acknowledged (from what I remember) that there are balance factors involved, like blocking while charging May's dolphins.

If Daisuke invented an interface device that looks like Sol's limiter headband and interprets your thoughts instantly and accurately as inputs, and then designed a game where one player got to use that and the other guy had to run a marathon before his would work, it wouldn't really affect the balance of the game. It'd just be a shitty game because only people who can run marathons could be player 2. Not everyone wants to play that game because not everyone wants to put forth the training effort.

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...

an SPD requires a minimum of 4 inputs (5 if you start from forward and want gief to jump forwards instead of backwards in super turbo!). you are only allowed one input per frame. are you saying this isn't a factor when gief walks forward in neutral vs. when gief is ticking you?

more extreme example: why don't you see players dp hops in kof every time? are you saying it isn't important that athena super requires 6 directional inputs at minimum? or that DPs, while 'easy', provide enough of an execution barrier that you reaction anti-air with close C instead?

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There's nothing that actually says a game can only process one input per frame (multi-button presses have to count as more than one input for obvious reasons). If it does only process one input per frame, then that restriction and the motion could interact to make balance stuff happen, yes -- but that's not a function of the motion by itself.

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and I was a philosophy major, so it comes pretty naturally

And suddenly the piss poor arguments and examples you've given make perfect sense.

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And suddenly the piss poor arguments and examples you've given make perfect sense.

regardless of how groundbreaking the glitch is gives certain players an advantage that would be impossible for someone who say modded their stick for a guilty gear layout (i've owned a 5 button stick before) CAN YOU AT LEAST ADMIT THAT THIS WILL INDEED BE SOME SORT OF ADVANTAGE?!!!!

There is no work-around for these people fighting people abusing the glitch.

now lets look at macro using pad players

reassign some buttons, spend a few hours learning that the O button is now the R1 button. you've got plenty of time to adjust to this and everybody can now play to the best of their abilities on even footing. (the only way you could say its not even is by saying that stick players now have an edge cuz they can do more...in which case you're just admitting that you're limiting yourself by playing pad)

once again, i cannot understand why anyone in this thread is still pro-macro

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This is hardly a game-breaking example (I hope), but I found it funny, since I've literally never touched Anji before and I'm new to GG overall. Hell, I didn't even know what his butterfly input was, I just mashed 236 with random buttons till I found it. Took all of 5 minutes for me to learn to do this, so make of that what you will.

Inputs for this were incredibly easy, though I did manage to fail at the end and walk forward by a ridiculous amount:

[K+S+H] + Macro (PKHS) + 23[6], 23[6], 23[6], 23[6], 23[6], 23[6], etc.

Yes, just hold 6 to make the butterfly come out, even if you did the input insanely early! Only downside is that you'll walk forward until the butterfly is actually possible to deploy.

Pretty funny how long the directional input buffer is with this glitch. The fact that I can actually walk until the input is valid is quite odd.

edit: Oh, so it's actually potentially game-breaking. That's unfortunate. >_>

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Id like to chime in as well that the idea of allowing macros but not allowing them if you use baiken or justice is retarded and makes no sense. If you go this route those CHARACTERS PERIOD need to be banned. Because you are deeming them to powerful. Your saying that macros are fair/legit/whatever. So every character can use them, if you are deeming certain characters as to good with it. You cant just change the rules of how you can play as them beacuse that is even more unfair. If something is fair for one character, its fair for every character. Just like every character is not totally balanced in a game there are tiers and what not. You can not BAN a strategy or a tactic for one character but not the other, which it now is if you think this fair. You are taking away the whole reason to play a game if you do so. TO PLAY IT. There are not rules on HOW to play a video game. There is no rule that I have to turtle.. that I have to rush down. You are saying this is fair, so its fair for everyone. So obviously some characters are going to be better at using certain tactics. You can not implement a rule like this. If you allow macros but you think this is unfair, you can not say you can not use macros if you use those characters. You MUST ban the character PERIOD because they are unfair.

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SFIV arcade.

Professional SFIV players can not hit true just-frame links with macro bug levels of consistency. In that game, plinking and blinking effectively reduce the majority of 1-frame links to 2-frame links (which are twice as likely to succeed. Two times.) If you watched Evo top 8 this year you saw Sako, who most regard as the poster boy "Execution God" of the scene drop more than 50% of the jab links he attempted, and he most certainly does not near 100% accuracy at his best, even in his old signature games like Vampire Savior.

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No that's actually quite game breaking. You could lock down pot until he got a burst at the right distance, which is insanely stupid. No person could do this reliably, like flat out not ever could you do this in a normal situation without the glitch.

This is just one example, and again is showing why i've said this is a pandora's box waiting to be opened. This is only the tip of what might actually be possible with this nonsense.

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There's nothing that actually says a game can only process one input per frame (multi-button presses have to count as more than one input for obvious reasons). If it does only process one input per frame, then that restriction and the motion could interact to make balance stuff happen, yes -- but that's not a function of the motion by itself.

Are you saying that if you somehow mash 41236 out in one frame, you think the game will interpret this as a half circle motion

Because this is the same as saying that if you press left, down, and right simultaneously on a hitbox you will get a half circle motion

Because this is the same as saying that holding down-right is a quarter-circle motion

Holding down-right is not a quarter-circle motion.

All the game can know is "Since the last time we polled input, X switch(es) have triggered and X switch(es) have untriggered." You could... Theoretically poll multiple times per frame, but in practice no game does this. This is why if you hit from down left to down right particularly quickly, the game just doesn't see a down motion. It sees, "down is triggered, right is triggered, the state is "down-right."

I

gah

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Are you saying that if you somehow mash 41236 out in one frame, you think the game will interpret this as a half circle motion

Because this is the same as saying that if you press left, down, and right simultaneously on a hitbox you will get a half circle motion

Because this is the same as saying that holding down-right is a quarter-circle motion

Holding down-right is not a quarter-circle motion.

All the game can know is "Since the last time we polled input, X switch(es) have triggered and X switch(es) have untriggered." You could... Theoretically poll multiple times per frame, but in practice no game does this. This is why if you hit from down left to down right particularly quickly, the game just doesn't see a down motion. It sees, "down is triggered, right is triggered, the state is "down-right."

I

gah

BUT PHILOSOPHY!!!!!!!!

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Are you saying that if you somehow mash 41236 out in one frame, you think the game will interpret this as a half circle motion

Because this is the same as saying that if you press left, down, and right simultaneously on a hitbox you will get a half circle motion

Because this is the same as saying that holding down-right is a quarter-circle motion

Holding down-right is not a quarter-circle motion.

I'm not saying those restrictions aren't in place. I am saying there's nothing necessary about them (I don't think it'd be hard to program a game that could recognize a DP as three separate inputs in the span of a frame, for instance, though it might be unnecessarily intensive), and that it's those restrictions + the motion that create balance implications, not the motion by itself.

Id like to chime in as well that the idea of allowing macros but not allowing them if you use baiken or justice is retarded and makes no sense. If you go this route those CHARACTERS PERIOD need to be banned. Because you are deeming them to powerful. Your saying that macros are fair/legit/whatever. So every character can use them, if you are deeming certain characters as to good with it. You cant just change the rules of how you can play as them beacuse that is even more unfair. If something is fair for one character, its fair for every character. Just like every character is not totally balanced in a game there are tiers and what not. You can not BAN a strategy or a tactic for one character but not the other, which it now is if you think this fair. You are taking away the whole reason to play a game if you do so. TO PLAY IT. There are not rules on HOW to play a video game. There is no rule that I have to turtle.. that I have to rush down. You are saying this is fair, so its fair for everyone. So obviously some characters are going to be better at using certain tactics. You can not implement a rule like this. If you allow macros but you think this is unfair, you can not say you can not use macros if you use those characters. You MUST ban the character PERIOD because they are unfair.

Holy shit.

This is actually a good post.

Professional SFIV players can not hit true just-frame links with macro bug levels of consistency. In that game, plinking and blinking effectively reduce the majority of 1-frame links to 2-frame links (which are twice as likely to succeed. Two times.) If you watched Evo top 8 this year you saw Sako, who most regard as the poster boy "Execution God" of the scene drop more than 50% of the jab links he attempted, and he most certainly does not near 100% accuracy at his best, even in his old signature games like Vampire Savior.

I meant arcade as in arcade cab, where blinking isn't possible.

I've seen people hit those Ibuki links with a good 80-90% consistency. EVO stage is rough to take as an example, because the last thing you want to do for hard exec like that is think (it's pure muscle memory, and concentrating on it fucks with that), and EVO stage would definitely make you think more than you'd like -- nevermind that PS3 SFIV probably doesn't run exactly the same as arcade, which could mess with his timing, etc. Vortex setup is also ~1f timing, but I don't remember seeing Sako screw up on vortex setup.

Also, it's not "twice as likely to succeed." It's "twice as easy to hit." There's a huge difference there. Whether or not the player hits the link isn't some sort of gamble. Either he does it correctly, and it's his glory, or he does it wrong, and it's his screwup.

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Thanatos you make he most semantic filled bullshit arguments i've ever seen. You are continuing to prattle on about shit because you can't accept that your viewpoint on this subject is completely off base and nobody cares about your cute philosophical outlook on the notion of fighting game balance. It would behoove everyone to ingore the shit out of you from this point on and focus on the actual important topic here of the ramifications of the macro glitch, because you are a gigantic fucking waste of everyone's time in this thread.

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Also, it's not "twice as likely to succeed." It's "twice as easy to hit." There's a huge difference there. Whether or not the player hits the link isn't some sort of gamble. Either he does it correctly, and it's his glory, or he does it wrong, and it's his screwup.

or he swings the stick and the macro hits it for him

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Thanatos you make he most semantic filled bullshit arguments i've ever seen. You are continuing to prattle on about shit because you can't accept that your viewpoint on this subject is completely off base and nobody cares about your cute philosophical outlook on the notion of fighting game balance. It would behoove everyone to ingore the shit out of you from this point on and focus on the actual important topic here of the ramifications of the macro glitch, because you are a gigantic fuck waste of everyone's time in this thread.

Okay.

Ban macros while praying for ArcSys to patch it if you want to be self-serving. Ban nothing if you don't want to alienate pad players. I'd rather see nothing banned because it's too much drama for TOs to pay attention, and I don't want to alienate pad players.

I want this patched out, since that saves everyone a fuckton of headaches, but we're likely to see Xrd before ArcSys even cares about console Guilty again.

There. I'm done in this thread.

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It changes how I interact with the game, but my exec and everyone else's is irrelevant to the issue of balance.

It's actually very relevant. Look no further than Klaige's post above about double butterfly locking down Potemkin. Having the execution to pull off certain techniques can entirely change the dynamic of a matchup.

It seems to me like you're looking at character matchups and player skill as mutually exclusive, when in reality you cannot have one without the other.

Motions can have balance effects, which I covered earlier, but they don't come about because I do them; they come about because the motion forces certain things to happen based on the game system (as discussed earlier, Flash Kick input can charged from a blocking state, because [1]->8 is a legitimate flash kick input). How well I perform a flash kick is irrelevant to that brute fact of the game system.

I honestly can't even make sense of what you're trying to say here.

Fighting game timers actually run on arbitrary units of time, not seconds. Compare the Skullgirls timer, say, to the BB timer. They don't run down at the same speed.

It's not a matter of whether or not the game uses actual seconds (which it obviously doesn't), I was just trying to point out that every aspect of the game, no matter how small, has an affect on how you play it.

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You can also bet if this was in street fighter it would be banned in a heartbeat until Capcom patched it out. And its even less abuseable in that game. THE ONLY REASON PAD PLAYERS CARE IS THEY GOT USED TO SHORTCUTTING 3 BUTTONS. We are not going to inhibit your ability to play the game, but unfortunately it will require you to make an adjustment. One that stick players already spent years making. Did any stick player here honestly start their gaming career on an arcade stick? I even played pad guilty gear for 2 years before I bought a stick and I lived in two cities with motherfucking arcades. I spent over 365 days getting my ass beat wishing I could execute like I used to on pad, and you want to complain about an adjustment that shouldnt take a few hours?!!! I learned stick in tournaments, in casuals, across the united states. FOR FUCKS SAKE banning macros should not affect your gameplay

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Anyways; in light of recent events, macros should, and probably will get banned. We would all love for ArcSys to patch this out but it probably isn't going to happen.

Sorry pad players, it's not your fault, but you'll probably end up having to adapt to playing without a macro.

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I wish I knew why I didn't ban Dusk like 20 pages ago.

what the hell is this argument you need to FD to do it now to do VV or something? DP is a FORWARD motion. Why the hell would you FD if your mashing forward.. *face palm*

This argument referred specifically to doing DPs in blockstring gaps. You'd need to be FDing at some point to be holding the macro in order to get the VV and still be blocking. If you have time enough to hit the macro while you're not blocking you might as well not even use the macro. I'm sure you would've realized that eventually, though.

Anyway, this glitch is dumb and the shit it allows is dumb. It's bad for the game. I'm not going to bother to ban in at local tournaments because I don't expect anyone to get a strong enough handle on it/care enough to use it, but as far as majors go I think we just need to buckle down and ditch macros unless we can all somehow decide we're mature enough to handle not abusing them. The scene is small enough that this is plausible, but...

Dammit, Shinjin, why couldn't you just keep your mouth shut for a year. :gonk:

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I play pad and I've gone back and forth between using a macro and not a couple of times, and I really don't think it's a hard transition. It involves learning some new muscle memory, but I don't think it's a big deal.

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I was hoping I could have a few days to come up with another silly numbered list before posting again. Well fuck it.

To the people saying a ban (or soft-ban) would "alienate" pad players -

YOU CAN STILL USE MACROS IN CASUALS. Hell I think most MONTHLIES would allow it just because they're only monthlies. I see this primarily as a big and important decision for Majors / Evo. On a smaller setting, its much more feasible to contain things either on a character basis, or on a player by player basis, because everyone knows eachother etc. I feel like this is an important subject for making sure the rules for large tournaments are handle properly, considering they're basically setting the standard for everything else.

Specifically to Ama, and others who have expressed worries about alienating pad players:

Those 150 people you mentioned aren't getting dicked out. They can still play GG however the hell they want. They just wouldn't be allowed to enter large tournaments with the pad macro. I think that's honestly pretty damn fair because if those majors and large tournaments had SBO qualifiers they wouldn't be allowed to enter anyways

All of the stuff Thanatos has said arguing with people like klaige / qwerty etc are all about whether or not it's "necessary" to ban them or not. About whether the problems warrant a ban. Very few people are actually approaching it from the opposite end in terms of whether it would really have as much of a negative impact as people are claiming.

While what kevin and others have said makes sense in terms of "wait and see," if you acknowledge there's something broken but just want to wait and see, you're basically saying 'If a hypothetical person X were to enter a tournament, he would win unfairly and break the tournament, but I'm just hoping that hypothetical person doesn't exist." I think that's pretty fucked up personally lol.

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