[AC+R BUG] Abusing button macros to get negative edge inputs during every single frame

[Shinjin]

Dammit, Shinjin, why couldn't you just keep your mouth shut for a year.

Sorry sorry!

[The Katz]

Sorry sorry!

I mean didn't only five people even know about this in the first place here?

[blitz]

ok, i just read the thread. We kinda knew about this already, sorta. Never realized it was doing it on first possible frame, nor pondered the possible implications with breaking baiken. But yeah, the holding-your-RC-button-while-mashing-Dpad was already a thing years and years ago, for the record.

ARCSYS <-- Chances are they really really don't care, and expect us to just deal. Mostly because no casual player is ever going to abuse this or even think to abuse this profitably.

Obvious solution: ban multi-button macros. It's about as inconvenient for pad players as holding a tournament on an arcade cab. Remember doing that, guys?

Oh, and by the way, just map 2 buttons (lets say, kick and punch) to 2 different shoulder buttons. There, now you don't have to do crazy hand rolls to get PKS~H or PSH~K. I didn't see this suggested in thread, so there ya go.

[TheRealBobMan]

It probably just wasn't as big a deal back then. Arcsys decided it was a good idea to give Baiken two meterless counters that are faster than frame 11 in +R. She could already counter during any move's block-pause using Baku with or without the macro bug, but force breaks cost meter so it's not so bad.

*Shrug*

Also, you can totally just learn to do that double butterfly stuff consistently without this macro. Hell, here's a video of triple butterfly!

[mAc Chaos]

Well, I don't have much to offer on the actual macro since I don't play GG but it's been an interesting thread with lots of information to take in. (Aside from the common sense idea that you might as well ban macros across the board for ease of enforcement.) It's weird how different the consensus between GG players in this thread on execution is compared to the Xrd thread: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?16395-Xrd-News-(Theoretical)-Gameplay-Discussion/page59&p=1502612&viewfull=1

Most of the comments there are along the lines of execution not being a necessary part of the game and something that should be simplified whenever possible. Like B + D DPs instead of DPs with regular inputs.

[faultydefense]

2 button dps is probably the biggest flaw in the persona engine and I dont dislike that game

[Rigel Cyrosea]

I have personally been playing a TON of macro Justice in casuals. At first it seemed like she was absurdly overpowered, and instantly won any time she hit michael sword. But, credit to the guys playing with me, they stuck it out and figured out how to beat it. There are only so many missile patterns you can put out and all of them have an answer. It actually becomes a really intricate game of reactive zoning as I try to vary patterns so my opponents have to constantly change strategies on how to get through. Some matchups felt broken at first (Slayer, Johnny), but after enough time playing them they evened back out. Nobody in this game lacks the tools to get through missiles, players are just lazily dismissing things as hopeless because they didn't figure it out in half an hour of playing/testing.

I have to say, I like macro Justice a lot better than regular Justice. She's a true zoning character, which is something GG doesn't really have under normal circumstances. If your evidence for Justice being overpowered is that some people picked her up and swept a local tournament against people who'd never had to play against her before, that's garbage. Give those same players a week to learn the matchup and see if it's so easy next time.

There are plenty of arguments for banning the macro glitch that I can respect, even if I don't agree with them, but "because it would make Justice OP" is not one of them.

[Chrome Homura]

I have personally been playing a TON of macro Justice in casuals. At first it seemed like she was absurdly overpowered, and instantly won any time she hit michael sword. But, credit to the guys playing with me, they stuck it out and figured out how to beat it. There are only so many missile patterns you can put out and all of them have an answer. It actually becomes a really intricate game of reactive zoning as I try to vary patterns so my opponents have to constantly change strategies on how to get through. Some matchups felt broken at first (Slayer, Johnny), but after enough time playing them they evened back out. Nobody in this game lacks the tools to get through missiles, players are just lazily dismissing things as hopeless because they didn't figure it out in half an hour of playing/testing.

I have to say, I like macro Justice a lot better than regular Justice. She's a true zoning character, which is something GG doesn't really have under normal circumstances. If your evidence for Justice being overpowered is that some people picked her up and swept a local tournament against people who'd never had to play against her before, that's garbage. Give those same players a week to learn the matchup and see if it's so easy next time.

There are plenty of arguments for banning the macro glitch that I can respect, even if I don't agree with them, but "because it would make Justice OP" is not one of them.

This is great news! Now if only someone would provide similar evidence against Baiken so this debate could die... >_>

[faultydefense]

some guy beats his justice and every argument except baiken has been discredited

you will use macros now, or you will be putting yourself at a disadvantage, fucking love nailing 1f throw > super 100% of the time with chipp. Actually played some mirrors last night and almost felt bad after the other guy tried to do it and ate death combos for being a frame off. I remember just a month ago I was telling myself even after all these years I needed to just sit and practice on my reversal timings...Pfft, why bother now.

I hope everyone reads this thread, practices using macros, has people to play against that know how to use the macros, pick justice and let them practice escaping it before NEC...

not even gonna try to bother arguing if it breaks a character

[Klaige]

I'm going to make this very simple: If you let this glitch ride then you might as well stop playing Gear until XRD. I can tell you right now a lot of players will just not enter tournaments if this is how the game is going to be played. No community is perfect and we all have to grow with the games and how they change, but the fact that people are actually talking about this somehow making the game better is the single most disappointing thing I have ever seen from the GG player base in 10 years of competing.

I am so blown away that the prospect of this being how the XX series goes out in the american scene. It is really sad and this is really a horrible way to go into a brand new game and engine that has a chance to be a marquee title in the fighting game scene. I straight up will not enter a single tournament where this glitch is allowed, I feel that strongly about how much of a detriment this is to the game. Still hanging on to what I really hope is not foolish optimism that everyone is going to do the right thing here.

[Essay]

I have personally been playing a TON of macro Justice in casuals. At first it seemed like she was absurdly overpowered, and instantly won any time she hit michael sword. But, credit to the guys playing with me, they stuck it out and figured out how to beat it. There are only so many missile patterns you can put out and all of them have an answer. It actually becomes a really intricate game of reactive zoning as I try to vary patterns so my opponents have to constantly change strategies on how to get through. Some matchups felt broken at first (Slayer, Johnny), but after enough time playing them they evened back out. Nobody in this game lacks the tools to get through missiles, players are just lazily dismissing things as hopeless because they didn't figure it out in half an hour of playing/testing.

I have to say, I like macro Justice a lot better than regular Justice. She's a true zoning character, which is something GG doesn't really have under normal circumstances. If your evidence for Justice being overpowered is that some people picked her up and swept a local tournament against people who'd never had to play against her before, that's garbage. Give those same players a week to learn the matchup and see if it's so easy next time.

There are plenty of arguments for banning the macro glitch that I can respect, even if I don't agree with them, but "because it would make Justice OP" is not one of them.

I'm sorry man, but I think you're resorting to too much rhetorical hyperbole here and inflating your point. Your "ton" of macro Justice has been ~6 meetups over the course of a little more than two weeks. Against a sample of 6 (7?) individual players, though only 3-4 of us really getting to humour macro Justice and stick it out. While most of us have our mains and multiple subs, there has been a wide discrepancy and variance in the kind of match-up experience you have been getting, and, I'd argue, the level of focus you have been maintaining over long-sets as macro-Justice.

Admittedly you haven't given me much macro-Justice experience yet personally because you seem hesitant to play Justice against I-No, and I haven't been playing my secondary characters (my original main, Zappa, and my month-and-a-half-old Baiken) against her much because they are not yet at a level where I feel they are even that competitive against your month-and-a-half-old, non-macro Justice. (That, and the nature of I-no already demands that I focus so much time on her if I want to continue to progress with the character.) From the short time I did play Zappa against your macro-Justice, however, I have to admit that it felt like the worst match-up I have ever personally experienced for myself in a Guilty Gear game. With no room to consistently summon and still block, unless I was hit and given the Ghosts (at which point I could make you deal with up-ghost), it felt completely futile. Inching forward with dashes and faultlessing was not a strong solution as Zappa's effective range and pay-off for getting in just wasn't there.

Our two OG players who I know you have played macro-Justice against the most—and from whom you have collected most of your matchup data—are admittedly very different players than me, and, I would argue, the majority of players in the scene. They have a strong background in, and love for, Super Turbo, and have admitted to being more tolerant/desensitized to things like 8-2 (or worse) matchups. (This is compared to me, coming from a competitive billiards background, who's bias is clearly towards games whose discrepancies in fairness and matchup-balance don't horrify me. Hell, otherwise, I might have wound up maining 3rd-Strike, because I enjoy the tactile feel of that game, aesthetics, music and community culture at least as much as, if not more than, Guilty Gear's.) Still, one of these guys has already voiced his complete support of banning macro-Justice, and the other seemed to still be in an ambiguous stance last time I saw him.

From these two players, I can confirm that you collected some Sol, Kliff, Johnny, Slayer, Dizzy, and Anji* experience, and I can probably assume some Faust, Venom, Robo, and Potemkin* experience while I wasn't looking. You also showed one of them how to play macro-Justice so as to try out your Order-Sol against it. First of all, I want to immediately remind you that, on his very first time playing macro-Justice, I saw him reach a double-digit winning streak against your HOS, at which point (possibly after eventually taking a round or two) you two switched it up to macro-Justice mirrors and he inexplicably continued to take multiple matches in a row on his first hours of playing the character.

You obviously also got enough matchup experience against our (admittedly godlike) local May to hold the firm opinion that that matchup was advantage-May and you didn't like it, and I'm sure I can trust that you got plenty of Millia/A.B.A while I wasn't around. Otherwise, if you are trying to judge the Ky match up from our new Ky player and are just assuming that just because he didn't get completely steamrollered and made some intelligent decisions, that the matchup must certainly be a degree more-even for an experienced Ky player, I think you are underselling how talented a player our local Ky is.

At the very least, that leaves us with absolutely no relevant data for Justice vs. Testament, Baiken, Eddie, Jam, Axl, Chipp, and Bridget, so you cannot fairly say that "Nobody in this game lacks the tools to get through missiles", and, even if that sentence was eventually proven true via technicality, it would say nothing about how a Justice that did more than hold some buttons and mashed down repeatedly would fare.

I am truly sorry that you haven't yet found +R as fun as AC, but I trust you'll keep giving it a chance and that it will grow on you with time. I can imagine how much it sucks to have A.B.A and Eddie change in ways you don't enjoy, and I'd be lying if I didn't say that I didn't stick with I-No and Zappa because of the buffs I saw coming (or abandon Venom early because of the impending loss of my favourite combo). Whatever the motivation for what you called "wanting to win for the least effort possible", it still betrays something extremely healthy and useful for the scene: competitive spirit. Never let that go!

However, on a bigger scale, the health of the scene is ensured primarily by the image it is allowed to convey. At the very least, AC attracted large groups of new players I talked to to the series because it had a reputation of being more "legit"/"balanced"/"rewarding" than the majority of pastimes that it attracted players from (fighting games or otherwise). For an aspiring player who (bear with me) Googles something like "guilty gear accent core matchup chart", how many "7-3's" do you expect them to find? How many multiple ones across the same column of the chart? (Try it out and see what you find!) You know enough other games to know that the answer to this is at least uncharacteristic.

The thing about +R now is that, while the game still generally caters to this design goal, we start to notice that Justice could be a bit of an odd ball. Without the glitch, she may very-well have a rougher collection of bad-matchups than the series is used to. With the glitch, she may have the opposite. The question that the community has to ask is whether or not it would be good for the scene's image (which, again, I argue intrinsically bolsters or harms the scene's overall health and potential for motivating competitiveness and growth) to allow this character—one who you have personally admitted to me requires very little investment, and, although not suiting "all personality types" in her game-plan, is admittedly quicker than any other character to pick up and play—to twist the match-up charts in one direction or the other.

It seems to me, if we allow macro-Justice, we are at the very least providing ~all players an easy, low-investment counter-pick for her best matchups... something which is almost unheard of in this scene. This sort of thing was a pretty common occurrence in the competitive Mortal Kombat scene, but, in the case of that game, the vast majority of characters could have been called "low-investment", and it actually created a counter-picking culture in that game that helped more characters see tournament play and tech-discovery. In Guilty Gear, this would have the opposite affect, as macro-Justice would be the only real low-investment counter-pick character... in a game that doesn't even have a problem with character-variety at high levels anyway.

I'm going to stop there, and I am truly sorry to be putting you on the spot. Please trust I don't mean any personal disrespect. I only think that absolute transparency is essential here, for the community's sake. Talk soon, alright?

---

*Characters generally listed from strongest to weakest in terms of the level that the two players in question play these characters at in +R.

[lofo]

I feel most of the arguments in this thread really miss the mark. In my view it boils down like this.

If this were in the arcade version (say it happened by holding respect), would we be having a discussion about banning it?

No, of course not. We'd just say "deal with it," and adapt. The only reason this is an issue at all is because it's console-only.

Does it warp the game enough to be worth talking about?

Yeah, it seems to. The console versions always seem to have very minor differences, but this one is a big enough difference to be worth talking about.

Is there a precedent for how to handle console-specific differences that warp the game?

Yeah, the community bans them. Console GG has a bunch of weirdness and in all other cases (eg EX chars, alt modes, etc) they're just banned. Power is not really relevant, only that it's different from the arcade version. Surely no one is going to argue that in AC, EX Ky was more powerful than Testament and Eddie. I think arguing about how powerful macro Justice or whatever else is is a red herring. Honestly, my experience matches Rigel's and I agree with him entirely that she's not too powerful.

Is it enforceable to ban macros?

Yeah, it's pretty straightforward. You can outright disable it. Banning "only using macros for X,Y,Z" would be unenforceable, though. Banning it for only certain chars would be a nightmare and really can't be enforced. Consider a case where someone forgets to check for macros when button setting and then plays Baiken. Should that player be punished? How can you be sure whether it was intentional? What if they set macros, lose game 1, then switch to Baiken? Or if the person playing before them hands the stick and they don't even go to button config? It's not difficult to think up problematic scenarios like these.

Given all that, it really seems like banning is the only consistent way to go.

[Star-Demon]

I'm disappointed that I had to find that Klaige talks like this - seriously.

To be honest - I *really* don't give a shit about what this actually brings to Baiken because all of you will still neverendingly complain about her (like you are already) regardless - and I don't want to listen to it because it's absolutely worthless to me and other players.

I don't like using glitches, myself, but hey, maybe if I get my hands on +R I'll try learning the technique just for lols and to continue making people mad at Baiken.

Right now, I've given up on +R and Guilty Gear until Xrd. If it were me your position, I could either stay mad, put up with problems, go back to AC+, or just move on.

Games dead. it's been dead. Continues to be dead.

I think the policy decision is simple, and I want to recap my first post about it - Ban something about our dead game or be mad at our dead game.

Perhaps +R is a lost cause and fell completely short. We expected it to revitalize something and instead the lack of US release combined with zero momentum from ArcSys (amongst other community-contributed factors) has failed to meet the expectation. +R's a flop. Maybe we should admit it and just forget about this thread and the rather discouraging attitudes and personalities present in it. It's obvious we can't hash any of this shit out amongst ourselves and with no help from ArcSys coming, the situation looks completely broken and unmanageable from everyone's POV.

I'm just avoiding GG now, and it's not because I'm scared or jealous or mad at some stupid Macro glitch, it's because of all the shit and attitudes that that are surrounding it, now.

Just give up on +R, maybe. AC+ is still good. It still exists. People present here clearly didn't have a problem playing it for years! Nobody will take it away from you!

[Rigel Cyrosea]

I'm sorry man, but I think you're resorting to too much rhetorical hyperbole here and inflating your point. Your "ton" of macro Justice has been ~6 meetups over the course of a little more than two weeks. Against a sample of 6 (7?) individual players, though only 3-4 of us really getting to humour macro Justice and stick it out. While most of us have our mains and multiple subs, there has been a wide discrepancy and variance in the kind of match-up experience you have been getting, and, I'd argue, the level of focus you have been maintaining over long-sets as macro-Justice.

Snip: Tons of stuff about our specific scene.

Yes, I have not played Justice against every character, and certainly not against someone who mained the character for each. And of course, I am not a top player, and neither is anyone else around here. My HOS is bad. I don't like playing Justice vs Ino or May. Hash is a pretty talented Ky player... I don't think any of that matters to my main point though, which is that every character has the tools to deal with macro Justice, and that it takes time to learn the matchup.

I know that every character has a super jump, and most of the cast can dash and faultless cancel their dash. The exceptions to the last would be Johnny, Potemkin, Justice, Normal mode Aba, Ino, and Slayer.

Every character who can super jump, normal jump, dash, and fd cancel their dash can make progress through missiles. It's pretty straightforward- if the Justice player is not constantly firing p-missiles, you can make progress by dashing and fding just before the missile hits you. If they are only firing p-missiles, you can superjump or iad. Against many patterns, you can also try superjumping, then landing such that a p or k missile hits you from behind, pushing you forward. Just these tools alone will get you through all missile patterns. The are not infinite. There's only so many ways Justice can put PKS on the screen, and all of them have costs and benefits.

The cost of making a mistake is high (because missiles will juggle you), and if you're completely predictable in your movements the Justice player can potentially detonate a set of missiles to punish you- but that is high risk for Justice, because if she's baited into doing it at the wrong time, you get through for free.

The thing about getting through missiles is that you have to be patient and careful. You have to know what you're doing- if you're still just experimenting with ways to get through missiles, you will almost certainly lose.

Johnny probably has the hardest time of any character (maybe ABA is worse, but I haven't personally played that matchup). Because of his height and lack of low-profile forward movement, Justice can mostly ignore P missiles and use just K/S. However, Johnny still has the tools to get through. His superjump is excellent, he can regain air movement options with KJFRC, and he can move forward on the ground with 6KFRC. It's also possible to gain ground by walking forward and crouching under K missiles. I absolutely agree that this is in Justice's favor. Possibly heavily in her favor. But it's clearly not unwinnable.

Potemkin has no serious difficulty with macro missile patterns. Slide head goes under K/S missiles and jumping goes over P missiles. Justice has a full screen super that punishes missiles, and can build the meter to use it quickly by walking forward and instant blocking missiles. Ino has plenty of tools to deal with Justice, including notes along the floor, hcl, and great air movement. It's highly unlikely Justice will ever even get into a situation where she can fill the screen with missiles against Ino. Slayer needs to build 50% tension for ex-dandy into ex-pilebunker before he can really threaten to stop Justice, but since he builds bar very quickly by walking and instant blocking missiles, this isn't a huge problem.

EDIT: The Slayer player I practiced with corrected me- apparently 25% for ex dandy into regular pilebunker is good enough most of the time. DoT is also a decent option.

The only character who lacks a real dash and might be unable to deal with missile spam is normal mode ABA. Likely, she will have to bloodpack before she can make any progress. That matchup is probably terrible, but at least Moroha mode does have the tools to get through missile spam- namely, a fast dash which can be fd canceled.

However, on a bigger scale, the health of the scene is ensured primarily by the image it is allowed to convey. At the very least, AC attracted large groups of new players I talked to to the series because it had a reputation of being more "legit"/"balanced"/"rewarding" than the majority of pastimes that it attracted players from (fighting games or otherwise). For an aspiring player who (bear with me) Googles something like "guilty gear accent core matchup chart", how many "7-3's" do you expect them to find? How many multiple ones across the same column of the chart? (Try it out and see what you find!) You know enough other games to know that the answer to this is at least uncharacteristic.

The thing about +R now is that, while the game still generally caters to this design goal, we start to notice that Justice could be a bit of an odd ball. Without the glitch, she may very-well have a rougher collection of bad-matchups than the series is used to. With the glitch, she may have the opposite. The question that the community has to ask is whether or not it would be good for the scene's image (which, again, I argue intrinsically bolsters or harms the scene's overall health and potential for motivating competitiveness and growth) to allow this character—one who you have personally admitted to me requires very little investment, and, although not suiting "all personality types" in her game-plan, is admittedly quicker than any other character to pick up and play—to twist the match-up charts in one direction or the other.

It seems to me, if we allow macro-Justice, we are at the very least providing ~all players an easy, low-investment counter-pick for her best matchups... something which is almost unheard of in this scene. This sort of thing was a pretty common occurrence in the competitive Mortal Kombat scene, but, in the case of that game, the vast majority of characters could have been called "low-investment", and it actually created a counter-picking culture in that game that helped more characters see tournament play and tech-discovery. In Guilty Gear, this would have the opposite affect, as macro-Justice would be the only real low-investment counter-pick character... in a game that doesn't even have a problem with character-variety at high levels anyway.

Were AC Eddie and Testament legit and balanced and rewarding? I think we're leaping to massive conclusions here. The existence of some bad matchups is not going to ruin the entire scene.

Also, playing Justice against someone who does not know how to beat missile spam is indeed very little investment. It was very little investment before the macro glitch too. In fact, I made that remark before I'd even heard of the glitch. Justice requires matchup knowledge or a heavily favorable matchup to beat, and does not rely on complex execution, macro or not. On the other hand, playing Justice and actually winning against someone who is familiar with the matchup is not a extremely small investment.

[Mumm-Ra]

dumbshit

Glitch works on AC+, hell it works in the PS2 version too.

[Klaige]

I'm disappointed that I had to find that Klaige talks like this - seriously.

That I talk like what? That i'm not afraid to state harsh facts about something that is bad for the game? I'm sorry i don't live up to whatever your expectations are. I'm a common sense individual, when something is blatantly causing an issue for a game that I care about I'm going to call it out. I don't really know what you are upset about considering you are basically saying you don't care about the game anyway? How do you expect me to talk? Did you want me more subtle? Do you expect me to talk like a politician? I'm not going to sugar coat my words on a subject that shouldn't be an issue, but is now a MASSIVE issue for the health of the game I care about most.

So uh, sorry I don't talk exactly how you want me to. This sounds more like you wanted to talk about how pissy you are that someone complains about the character you play, because that's obviously super relevant to this conversation. Pretty much everything you just posted was an exercise in flapping your gums in something that you don't care about anymore, so congrats.

[AMB Bakery]

If they super jump, you just H missile once, unless it's Anji in which case you can just S missile every once in a while (like you should be doing to cover against airdashes). You should never have to detonate either cos you can just Michael Sword them to push them back out if they even start to get too close, even though the bombs themselves should be enough of a threat already.

As long as you keep the stream of p and k missiles up (as you should be doing anyway, it's arguably the most optimal way because no one can stay in the air forever), potemkin will just face-plant onto a bomb if he tries to slide head. If you walk forward even just a little bit you can also punish him with Michael Sword.

If it takes a hell of a lot of mental fortitude just to get through the danmaku of a Justice that's literally just holding down 2 buttons and mashing down down, imagine what it would be like in the hands of someone who actually knows what they're doing.

[Chaoschao222]

That I talk like what? That i'm not afraid to state harsh facts about something that is bad for the game?

I think Star was more referring to you saying things to the effect of 'if you do x, then stop playing the game' rather than your "harsh facts."

I hope that's what he was talking about, anyways :/

[Klaige]

It's how I feel about it, guilty gear will not be a proper competitive game at that point, it changes everything and not for the better. I'm certainly not telling everyone they have to quit playing the game, but in terms of having legit good high level competition, if you make this a part of the equation then the US competitive scene is diluted down into a silly joke at that point, and in those terms, imo, yes you might as well just sit and play BB, P4 or wait for XRD because +R at high level will be cheapened and serve little purpose as a tournament game if we bring this into play.

When I say I personally won't enter tournaments that allow it, that's all im saying, im only speaking for myself. I will say that i have talked to other players who have said they will actually do the same thing, but i'm not trying to start the picket line against GG tournaments if this becomes the norm, I'm merely stating that its how I personally will approach it and nothing more. I'm just another person with another opinion, and usually I don't care to get involved in these kind of debates. But this one issue has such huge ramifications on GG and the US scene that i feel it's worth my effort to post my stance on it. Some people will disagree with what i say, because it's an opinion, and nobody has one that's universally agreed with.

[Rigel Cyrosea]

If they super jump, you just H missile once, unless it's Anji in which case you can just S missile every once in a while (like you should be doing to cover against airdashes). You should never have to detonate either cos you can just Michael Sword them to push them back out if they even start to get too close, even though the bombs themselves should be enough of a threat already.

As long as you keep the stream of p and k missiles up (as you should be doing anyway, it's arguably the most optimal way because no one can stay in the air forever), potemkin will just face-plant onto a bomb if he tries to slide head. If you walk forward even just a little bit you can also punish him with Michael Sword.

If it takes a hell of a lot of mental fortitude just to get through the danmaku of a Justice that's literally just holding down 2 buttons and mashing down down, imagine what it would be like in the hands of someone who actually knows what they're doing.

If you P missile against Pot he can flick it. It does more harm than good. One H missile will stop their superjump from reaching you entirely, but they'll still gain ground unless you did it mega preemptively. If you're doing preemptive high missiles you're leaving gaps that people can dash through. Gaining ground matters. People aren't going to get all the way through with one or two movements, but ever time they make the right choice they get closer to you.

If you stop firing missiles to michael sword and you don't hit them, most of the cast will be able to punish you if you try to start firing missiles again directly after. Of course, you have other options, but continuing to spam missiles is risky at this point.

If you're better enough than someone than you can continually predict their movements far enough in the future that you can preemptively change patterns to stop them, then you deserve to beat them imo. And without that level of prediction, your opponent will get through eventually. It comes down to how long you can keep them out and how much chip damage/frustration you can build.

[Star-Demon]

I think Star was more referring to you saying things to the effect of 'if you do x, then stop playing the game' rather than your "harsh facts."

I hope that's what he was talking about, anyways :/

What Chaos said - just to be clear.

You guys DO know I care about things, too, right? I don't think you do. Some of those things are the exact same cares and worries as yours.

[Klaige]

Right now, I've given up on +R and Guilty Gear until Xrd. If it were me your position, I could either stay mad, put up with problems, go back to AC+, or just move on.

Games dead. it's been dead. Continues to be dead.

I'm just avoiding GG now, and it's not because I'm scared or jealous or mad at some stupid Macro glitch, it's because of all the shit and attitudes that that are surrounding it, now.

Just give up on +R, maybe.

You just said 4 different times you dont care about +R, aka the game this discussion applies to, so if you don't care why are you bothering to post?

[mAc Chaos]

well it was a nice run

now entering star demon drama thread

[Mumm-Ra]

I believe it'd be wise to avoid people who shitpost like Star-Demon or Dusk Thanatos and keep talking about the consequences of the glitch instead of giving them attention. I don't have much to say regarding the matter but to say that this won't break the game is pretty ridiculous, all fighting games keep evolving with time, something that seems harmless can end up being pandora's box (like this). Justice and Baiken are just the beginning, shit will keep being found and then all hell will break loose. I'm all for banning macros, why would you need one anyways? You can just map HS to a face button and D to a trigger like Elvenshadow and I've said.

[Fenrir Werwolf]

I honestly still don't understand the problem.

Banning the macro and letting the pad player to adapt is the obvius solution, as Elven said.

I don't understand all the drama, since we are talking about tournaments and the COMPETITIVE scene of GG, not just random casuals online

Said that, I'm out