Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Shinjin

[AC+R BUG] Abusing button macros to get negative edge inputs during every single frame

Recommended Posts

If it's irrelevant to game balance then you are saying it doesn't matter, you are saying it has no purpose what so ever into how the fundamental balance of the game is made.i You can't say it's sole purpose to seperate players into who puts the most effort in, especially when a player with average execution but excellent decision making and reads can do just as well if not better than a player with top tier execution but below average reads. I also like how you skipped over the double butterfly argument after it made you look foolish for your assumptions about consistency in execution being a gateway to allow a tool-assited option into the mix. But that's fine most people tend to cherry pick their responses when they start looking foolish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If it's irrelevant to game balance then you are saying it doesn't matter, you are saying it has no purpose what so ever into how the fundamental balance of the game is made.i You can't say it's sole purpose to seperate players into who puts the most effort in, especially when a player with average execution but excellent decision making and reads can do just as well if not better than a player with top tier execution but below average reads. I also like how you skipped over the double butterfly argument after it made you look foolish for your assumptions about consistency in execution being a gateway to allow a tool-assited option into the mix. But that's fine most people tend to cherry pick their responses when they start looking foolish.

Actually, didn't notice your post yet.

Yeah, that's pretty rough. I don't know if I'd call it outright impossible, since there are probably ways to practice specific situations/confirms into double butterfly to alleviate that issue (only do it from a max range *insert normal* on *insert character*), but it's definitely a pain in the ass. I don't know how much sympathy I have (getting meaty in Melty can be almost as shitty [more frames to hit within makes it easier for sure] sometimes, between the different wakeup speeds and the height I hit the knockdown normal changing things -- and I practice that), and I don't think it's definitively impossible, but it's probably more work than it's worth at the least.

Execution is only one skill among many relevant to fighting games, and some skills are more valuable than execution. Good yomi is more valuable than execution, I'd say, but that doesn't mean having good execution doesn't pay off, and it certainly doesn't mean that getting better exec won't help you win matches. Sure, top tier exec player could lose to top tier yomi player pretty easily, but the yomi player might need several reads, whereas the exec player might only need one or two. Execution barriers -are- there to reward players, but there are other skill barriers that are also rewarding to pass in every competitive game, so I'm not sure why bringing up one of the other barriers (skill at reads) is a counterpoint.

I'm also going to be cruel. You're insinuating that execution is intended to factor in the fundamental balance of the game, and then you're bringing up double butterfly, which is almost certainly an unintended glitch. That's questionable at best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I said it is an unintended glitch and that the very nature of it's execution makes that not really an issue. allow a macro frame perfect input tool would make it VERY much an issue. That's all ive said from the get go, is that this macro is a pandora's box to circumvent execution and that is a very BAD thing for the game. You have insinuated otherwise, that execution only serves as a way to measure gaps in player effort and skill. Basically you are jumping all over the place and haven't provided one good reason for why the macro ISNT a big deal other than "i don't think it's a big deal even though i can't accurately tell you how important execution is to a game".

If you are striving for excellence in waffling you are doing a fantastic job.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as I can tell, I've been repeating the same thing the entire topic (barring comments about how possible the Justice glitch is without the macro, since I'm still not sure, and whether or not Justice makes it banworthy, since a lot of that is on whether or not it's possible anyways).

Also, and this is more legitimate interest in this specific case: if Anji could do double butterfly off every knockdown, would it be a legitimate issue? Given the other powerful forms of okizeme in AC, would it be something to worry about, or would it make Anji shoot up a bit in tiers, but not make him nuts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did I seriously just see that execution is not intended when factoring balance into a game when making it? Are you fucking kidding me? Why do you think some moves have more complicated motions then others? 0_o Why is guile a charge character in SF2 instead of a regular motion character. Why is zangeifs SPD a well SPD motion and not a fireball motion? Because certain things should be harder to do then others obviously. Hell why are FRCs in GG 3 buttons instead of just being 2? Maybe to make it harder? To make execution a factor? @_@ Seriously or why not even just say back in the XX days I dont recall any special moves been done with a dust button. Why not just back in the day of XX having FRCs beening pressing just dust ONE button durning certain attacks to get a FRC? Why does it have to be 3? Could it be that beacuse execution should be a factor of games?

Oh and since ive been mentioned now by mean real name(or not!!!!! ) umm thanks for your comments lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Motions themselves can have balance ramifications (you don't have to stop blocking to charge flash kick; Baiken's GC motion starts in a block; you have to stop holding block to DP; etc.), but the difficulty of inputting them is not one of those ramifications. It's more to be intuitive than anything else. Supers are fancier and cooler, so they get harder motions than specials. That's about it, though. Anyone playing seriously could do Tyrant Rave 50 times in a row without sweating, let alone a fireball. The "difficulty" of the motion would have zero effect on play.

And if you're insinuating that hitting three buttons is somehow hard for the average player on a stick, that's pretty funny. It's no harder than hitting three keys on a piano. (Pad's different, obviously, without weird mappings.) You can stop trying to brag about your exec now. Your videos are really fucking cool (no, seriously, I like them a lot), and props for them, but seriously, we get the idea.

EDIT: Made something less confusing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have much to offer to this topic, as I am very new to this game. so i'll just tell you guys a bit about myself and how I feel.

My name is Kareem Hailey.

I'm reside in Greensboro, North Carolina. (stop asking me skaterr...)

I'm 22 years old.

I'm an 09er.

I think this my first post on the dustloop forum (TriHard).

My favorite game is guilty gear AC+.

This is my first guilty gear.

I currently distribute my time between anji and faust.

I'm pretty sure anji-sama will never return my feelings, but I can't leave him alone ;_;

I should probably apologize to faust for leading him on...

I play on pad/analog, and map pks to my R2 button so I can do my frcs.

I have fat fingers Orz.

This is the first I'm learning of an issue dealing with macros.

I just learned what macros were yesterday LMAO.

I haven't experienced this glitch or know how to perform it, nor do I want to.

If it is something that the majority feels could compromise a tournament, then macros should probably be banned in tourney.

I suppose them's the breaks :/

If I never get a chance to participate in a tournament, I will continue to support this game because it's fucking fun.

Speaking as a new player, after reading through this thread and noticing someone masturbating to their past accomplishments, and denouncing others' arguments rudely, I feel slightly opposed to playing this game if the ppl in its community are similar.

Some guys are dicks.

but I suppose them's the breaks as well :/

I'm sure most of you are great people though.

HI BRETT-SENSEI O u O/

also I didn't mean to make my first post this extravagant but YOLOOO NIGGAAA #SwiftRage (I'm sorry if I came off as a dick) ^_^

One more thing! Is someone gonna make a poll for this issue or wait until after nec? or?...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thinking less effort is bad is called entitlement blablabla

I don't give a shit how much effort you spend on learning New Tech X or whatever, and if you can pull it off after only seeing it once then good on you. I meant effort of pulling stuff off in a high-pressure situation. There's no mental effort, I guess I meant to say, in that you don't have to concentrate on getting something perfectly right. Like doing a perfectly timed reversal after being knocked down means actually paying attention to not only when you were knocked down, but also if your character landed face-down or face-up and how that affects their riseup speed. That is something you consciously have to consider and that puts a cognitive strain on you and that will affect how the mind games are played out.

Similarily, a Baiken player that doesn't need any effort to get a perfect 1f-counter against any random pokes will have a severe advantage over one who actually needs to confirm things.

There's actually no less commitment, just less chance of error.

I can't believe you actually think this!

Also, because Sirlin is always appropriate:

Apples and oranges

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Actually, didn't notice your post yet.

You seem to have not noticed several good posts in the last day or two. :/

However, I'm privileging the PS3 version of +R over the arcade version, since that's the one we all have in front of us (unless you're fortunate enough to be in Japan near an arcade). I can't find it reasonable to privilege the arcade version if most people playing the game in the Dustloop community will never come near it, and most of the new blood won't even know there are differences, or understand why this macro glitch is preventing them from using the macros built into the game. -That- seems to be controversial in this topic, but that is my opinion.

Yeah, a bit controversial. There's no reason to ignore the entire Japanese side of our community and the most ambitious of us who actually work their asses off to make it to Japan to play in arcades (see my post #145 for a current example, which you seem to have not noticed). There's also no reason to assume that it is in anyway difficult to explain this issue to the "new blood". I'm not sure how in touch you are with the aspirant GG players in your region, but the dozen or so of newer players I've dealt with lately tend to come in already accepting that this game is "legit" in the challenge it will provide, but also rewarding for the sense of accomplishment it can foster.

he only way your argument is sensible is if getting double butterfly consistently is impossible, but there's plenty of evidence from other games to suggest that getting frame perfect inputs with high accuracy is possible. As a result, I can't accept this argument.

You really should present this evidence, because it looks as if you have been misinformed, or misinterpreted something along the way.

I've seen players hyped up as absolute execution gods, who can, yes, hit 1-frame links with higher accuracy than the norm. At no point, however, do they approach the levels of "high accuracy" that the macro glitch would allow for. It looked as if you were under the impression that you'd still have to time the directional input with just-frame timing, but this is not the case. The way Guilty Gear's input buffer system is weighted, directional inputs linger long enough that the macro glitch can save incredible amounts of timing, not to mention focus. (You know, focus: that limited commodity that has a habit of deciding tournaments.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are many people posting recently in this thread that I must thank greatly for expressing the same kinds of notions I would like to, but don't have the time, patience, nor writing ability to put concisely. Not to mention the perseverance to continue to debate about it against contrary opinions etc etc - so thanks, honestly. This is not me circle jerking, but yeah, thanks.

I've been following this thread closely for quite a while, and just wanted to bring up a few things (I know I always preface whatever points I'm about to make with similar ice-breakers; I'm sorry.)

1. This is an issue for TOURNAMENT ORGANIZERS. This is obviously a topic everyone can discuss but I do think it's important for people to realize we should be making it so that TO's who read this can understand it clearly. One of the things that irks me the most about Dustloop is the sheer difficulty of keeping track of the flow of discussion and being able to extract meaningful information out of them (most combo threads 1st posts' don't even list bnbs, but that's offtopic :P). It would be nice if people could try to put effort into compiling the pros and cons, each side of the arguement, etc, and making them presentable for TO's to review. Some have and definitely are reading and following this thread thoroughly, while others probably have no clue what's being discussed here. It would be nice, regardless of the side of the issue you stand on, if we could make effort into making it so tournament organizers are more _well informed_ about the topic, rather than making uninformed assumptions and/or decisions. Again - it would be nice. That's all.

2. On the topic of tournament organization, at Norcal Dogfight, a Guilty Gear monthly that has been ongoing consistently for over a year, the ruleset was identical to the one I suggested a while ago, being that both players in any given match had to agree mutually before hand in order for pad macros to be usable. Otherwise, they weren't allowed. Things generally went smoothly, and there was no drama despite there being some pad players.

There was indeed a justice player. People who gave him the OK generally lost to him, even after he explained the implication of permitting it. People who told him no forced him to play normally and no harm was done.

I'm reporting all of this not because I'm trying to prove a point, but because there hasn't been a lot of new concrete _data_ being presented in this thread. I have nothing against the amazing, but lofty discussions that are also going on here, but I would like to make an example by action that there are other ways of progressing this discussion. The main thing I really want is just for this discussion to continue progressing and moving towards an end resolution, regardless of what it is. I really don't want to sit here and wake up every morning wondering whether we're all going to start learning to use pad macros or not.

3. I understand that most people seem to agree that the Justice glitch is banned, but I'm still saying all of this stuff because there are those who still believe in a "wait until we see results" mindset. Thus I'm giving you results. There are a lot of people who have been saying things like "Oh fine Imma just learn justice etc etc," but I have yet to see those people say anything. As I mentioned earlier, I played with it extensively, and did get results - I won a ranbat by mashing with the occasional decision making using it. Not only that, I can tell you some things that others would know if they actually messed around with it - such as the fact that Grand Viper does not actually defeat the NB spam tactic because you can pre-emptively release a P one and hit him for it. Not to mention at certain ranges its extremely easy to bait with a slight pause, and there's very little risk to leaving a tiny gap randomly in the fireball danmaku.

tl;dr - this issue will be resolved by the decisions of TO's. So if you want to contribute I suggest making your post / this thread useful for TO's to read.

and lastly, an actual question because I feel like things 5-6 pages ago were said as if they were absolute truth, and now are being swept under the rug:

Very early on in the thread a few things seemed apparent:

1. Banning the Justice Pad Macro alone was not an option - you must ban pad macros or you must allow them.

2. People then proceeded to argue that the Justice Glitch wasn't actually that big of a deal, and along the way people started slowly responding to the arguement about the use of the macro as a "turbo button"

3. Most people are saying the Justice Glitch is broken and bannable, but there's a lot of disagreement regarding the "turbo button" usage.

so..... am I wrong about this assumption about 1.? It really seemed like everyone was in agreement on that part, yet it also seems like the majority is now in consensus on the Justice Glitch being broken. If not, that's even more reason for some of the data I've posted. And yes I've posted some of it before but this is also an attempt to make it straight forward and presentable.

Thanks for the patience required to read all the crap I write :(

-Brett

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i personally think video games should be hard as fuck with no fun allowed. if you are a new player who uses pad macros because you haven't figured out how to adapt to 10+ year old control schemes you should just be banished to a hole in the floor while the execution bros drink nattie light and spit on you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right so I'm sick of being called a cheater and/or lazy because I think it's silly to re-learn my entire control scheme because of some stupid bug. So I'm not really going to get into this debate anymore. However I do want to drop off some food for thought. Concerning mainly two points: A) That "mashing" inputs while holding down the macro will always result in easy reversals, frame 1 links, etc. and that B) A character specific macro would "introduce more drama" than a full ban on macros.

A) I've seen a lot of talk about how you could, theoretically, mash 214 during blockstun or 623 on wakeup and always get a frame-perfect special move as soon as you are able. But let's think about that, shall we?

Let's look at a link in the game. Since I'm a Jam player, the first one I can think of is her 6H, 6P. Now, this is by no means a hard link. I'm not sure on the exact frames to do it, but it feels like maybe 3f-5f? It's tricky to time if you don't know the exact moment to 6P, but once you know it you should be able to do it pretty consistently.

But that's it. It's tricky to time. Timing implies that I'm not hammering on 6P as soon as I do the 6H. Anyone who does links can tell you this is silly. That's not timing anything at all, that's mashing and hoping you get lucky. Now, how is mashing inputs on wakeup any better? You're not timing anything, you're hoping you get lucky and get close enough to a reversal input. And in a game "where frames matter", close enough sometimes isn't good enough. You'd still have to time your special input to get that reversal...in which case why use the macro in the first place? You can't tell me that pressing the button would be so much more of a handicap in this scenario that it could mess up your timing.

In fact, there's ONE thing that would give you an advantage to using the macro here. Because it's negative edging, that means you're NOT pressing a button and committing to the attack. So if you do 623(Macro Hold) and miss your wakeup timing and you're too early, nothing comes out. But that still happens if you miss your wakeup timing with a button press...in addition, I'm sure many of you are aware of double tapping buttons for reversals or links. When done with a special move, this means you have 4 times the chance to hit that frame link. Once for the initial button press, once for the negative edge, then again, once for the second button press, and once again for the negative edge. At least, that's how it was explained to me.

Someone explained to me how apparently, the game holds inputs for specials much longer than for normals? So this point is whatever wrong sure. Point B then.

B) A full ban on macros would somehow cause less drama than banning it for one character. Bear with me here as I'm going to pull some arbitrary numbers out of my ass here, but the point is less the specifics of the numbers and more of the general idea, so try to understand.

We'll say there's 1000 Guilty Gear players in the country. How accurate this number is, I don't know. That's not the point.

Of these 1000 players, we'll say 300 of them play on pad. Guilty Gear is an execution heavy game and many players are pushed to learn stick, so I feel this is a fair ratio. We'll also assume for simplicity's sake that no stick player uses macros (ignoring this glitch's existence here).

So, of these 300 pad players, not even all of them use macros (again, ignoring this glitch). We'll say it's pretty half and half, so 150 of these players use macros for FRCs, FDing, what have you. That's 150 players that would be affected by a full macro ban. 150 out of 1000 doesn't sound so bad, but stick with me.

Now, let's look at banning macros for Justice players due to this glitch. Again, 1000 Guilty Gear players in the country. Of these 1000 players, we'll say 50 of them play Justice, stick, pad, macro, or not (As there are 25 characters in the game, 1000/25=40, so I feel 50 is a fair number, especially for a new character).

So, of these 50 players, maybe 20 of them play pad, and 10 of them use macros for FRC, FDing, etc. So 10 players would be affected by the ban.

"But," the argument I've heard, "banning it for only Justice players would cause a bigger fuss than banning it across the board!"

Even if every Justice player was against the ban, there would still be 50 Justice players to the 150 Pad players that are only affected by the ban. Now, these numbers are arbitrary and out of my ass, but I hope you see my point.

A complete macro ban would affect more players and lead to just as much, if not more drama, than a character specific ban.

...like I said. Food for thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As far as I can tell, I've been repeating the same thing the entire topic

Yes, and klaige keeps posting better responses. Someone get that man a medal.

and at amadeus

A) no... you actually still kinda need to time reverals..this isn't blazblue. the game will read your motion for several frames but you need to be more precise with the buttom press. Which is why the macro is more reliable than any human with good timing. you can literally just be swinging the stick from down to forward at any reasonable pace not looking at the screen and the macro will net you reversal timing every single time.

B) so banning macros might piss off 50 players. Not banning them will piss off a lot more ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A) Friend of mine pointed out how, when done during a blockstring, you HAVE to be FDing to use the macro glitch. Just another point to think about.

B) I wasn't saying don't ban them at all. That argument is for banning it for ONLY a character who it is a major problem with. Re-read my post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

B) I wasn't saying don't ban them at all. That argument is for banning it for ONLY a character who it is a major problem with. Re-read my post.

Only adding to the point, my statement stands

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What I'm getting out of this thread is that a strangely large amount of top players think human error is an integral part of the game. I can't help but disagree on that.

Human error is an integral part of life, dude.

I think it's funny that you continuously deny the role of execution. Especially because I know firsthand that even at the highest levels of play, execution matters a whole hell of a lot.

I've played against two of the best Anji players in Japan. In most aspects, they are roughly of equal (and very high) skill. However, I can beat one of those Anji players a lot more than the other. Why is that, you may wonder?

Because one of those Anji players consistently does optimal damage combos, and one of them doesn't. I've asked other players their opinion on these two players as well, and their sentiment echoes mine. Some even think that the Anji player with lower execution has better decision making skills, but will still point to his lackluster damage output as his weakness.

Not necessarily pertinent to the subject of banning glitches that are very obviously gamebreaking, but food for thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

question: what is the worst result if macros don't get banned? defense, combos, etc become easier, causing...? justice gets a buff of sorts, causing..?

compare that to the worst results of if macros get banned, if justice gets banned, whatever

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Justice doesn't just reach "full potential" she get's access to something that can't be done by human hands alone, period. The worst result is that you open the door for every tool-assisted option to come into play in tournaments. If you allow this macro input glitch how do you tell someone they can't use turbo or programmable inputs? They are in essence doing the same thing, so giving one the ok and not the others becomes hypocritical and now you have a bigger problem. Now you've allowed something besides the players actual skill at the game to determine the outcome and that's never a good thing to have in any competitive situation.

If the macros are banned the worst thing that happens is pad players who use macros for their intended purpose get screwed. Make no mistake for all I've said about this issue I have a great deal of reservation over taking away something pad players have always had access to and likely will never abuse. Ideally we ban the act and not the macro itself but there's simply no way for TO's to enforce that rule, you'd have to have someone staring at everyone's controllers for an entire match, and even that might still make it difficult to notice if they use it.

It's not so much what this glitch does by itself, (even though for a justice player it's a huge tool that she's not meant to have) but the precedent it sets by allowing it to go forward. If this didn't overlap with a part of the game that's been accepted for years (allowing button macros) it would be auto-banned without second thought. This is a gray area because it's a glitch that is detrimental to the game but encompasses a part that is a kick in the mouth to players that use the option for it's intended purpose. At the end of the day it's going to require a black/white response (ban them or dont) that is again an area of obvious grayness.

IMO the pros of banning this far outweigh the cons of letting it go, but i'm not oblivious to the fact that this creates very unfortunate results for pad players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At best, we prevent Justice from facerolling through tournaments CT Nu style. At worst, we alienate pad players who rely on macros.

WHOEVER WINS, WE LOSE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At this point, the two options are ban macros for Justice only or ban macros altogether.

Earlier in the thread, I was of the opinion that banning it for Justice only (which is imperative) was a feasible option so long as everyone was informed of the effects of letting a Justice player use macros. This would also avoid upsetting anybody that uses macros for execution purposes (namely FRC).

However, brett pointed out something that I hadn't considered: soft-banning macros, but letting players decide before a match if they should be allowed (again, still fully aware of the possible ramifications). This solution is good for a couple of reasons:

1. It structures the rules to where macro-users are the exception to the rule. Of course I don't have numbers, but I'm willing to wager that pad players that use macros are in a vast minority. This way, the rule is global but can be tailored to certain people so long as they make their case before a match.

2. It settles the issue without allowing it to get out of hand. Now of course, I imagine a select few people are going to mess around with this glitch regardless of whether or not macros get banned, just for the sake of exploration, but as Klaige said, it's not just Justice. A whole pandora's box of new tech with macros could get discovered (May dolphins as RealBobMan pointed out). At least the macro ban would dissuade exploration of the glitch for use in tournaments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really am for the opinion that the macro bug should be banned. However, since there seems to be some(?) controversy around it, maybe we should start looking into some conditional ban to still allow newcomers an easier way into the game? I'm all for compomising if it keeps the community together

Just brainstorming a few ideas

  • Only ban it in top 8 for tournaments
  • Allow players to choose if macros are allowed for the round, as per Essays idea
  • Ban it after some time period (say, a few months), to allow pad players time to learn to play without
  • Other ideas...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to clarify;

People mentioned that "Outside of the Justice glitch, it's impossible to tell if someone is using macros." Well that's only kinda true. If you're holding down the macros you HAVE to be FDing unless you have no meter (which means you can't backdash either), so if a Baiken player is FDing a bunch and 1f countering all your moves they're PROBABLY using a macro. And since FDing pushes out more this means stuff like mashing VV out of it isn't so great cause it might whiff (which can be played around of course).

Of course this doesn't apply to reversals from wake up so there's no way to tell there.

Not saying this isn't really fucking annoying for TOs to monitor still, but hey, more info is good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I already said this like 3 times but no one seems to be listening or replying to what I said so I will type it in all caps like a douche bag

PAD PLAYERS!!! WHY CAN'T YOU JUST MAP HS TO A SHOULDER BUTTON AND DUST TO A FACE BUTTON ON YOUR PAD SO THAT YOU CAN EASILY PRESS ALL 3 AT THE SAME TIME FOR FRCS!?! IT SERIOUSLY WILL TAKE YOU LIKE A WEEK TO GET USED TO IF YOU REALLY GIVE A SHIT ABOUT PLAYING THIS GAME COMPETITIVELY! THEN WE CAN JUST BAN THIS STUPID GLITCH AND MACROS AND GO BACK TO PLAYING THE GAME AS IT WAS INTENDED

...and as the TO (yes I am a TO for those of you who do not know) of Frosty Faustings, I am leaning towards a full ban. Not only just Justice, but this glitch honestly gives a pretty bit advantage to people who know how to abuse it. I know it sucks but don't blame me, blame whoever was in charge of testing the game for bugs before release. Sorry, I am a little drunk right now but honestly, just re-read my all caps part and then read it again and then if you are a pad player, do what it says and the problem is solved. Seriously!

...and Thanatos... your execution doesn't matter arguments are pretty weak and I still can't see how you don't GET IT after all of those good posts by Klaige....

And for those people who are whining about how we are trying to shun new players and make it impossible for them to compete with veterans and shit... how so? If you are a new player, can't you simply just learn the game with a control scheme that allows you to FRC without macros on pad... or TRY using a STICK!? I honestly don't see why this is such an unreasonable idea! Like.... seriously! I like to think that I am a pretty reasonable guy.... and I am not trying to be a dick... but seriously... man up! Put a little EFFORT into something if you really have a passion for it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what the hell is this argument you need to FD to do it now to do VV or something? DP is a FORWARD motion. Why the hell would you FD if your mashing forward.. *face palm* Oh and to the dude with the johnny avatar that mentioned me who you be? Is this redbeard or something under a new name?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×