DylanTubularK Report post Posted September 29, 2013 If I may add to what Celerity is saying, look at UNIB (Under Night In-Birth). That game had silly long combos, and a lot of systems that enabled long combos (ways to gain lots of meter, odd gravity, etc.) to the point that most combos lasted 20 or so seconds. It suffered because of it. The game got vastly improved after all that got scaled back, with the makers speicifically citing SNK's fighters as an inspiration for some of the changes. SNK's games are a really good template to use. They're a good middle ground between Street Fighter and Arc System Work's fighting games. They keep a focus on fundamentals while allowing some level of flash in combos and creative systems added onto the base gameplay. I cannot disagree with this more. Fighting games, at a sufficiently high level, remove quite a bit of luck from the equation. Someone dropping a kill combo or making a bad hitconfirm isn't luck, it was poor execution. What about playing footsies, proper spacing, or baiting reversals is luck? If nothing else, purposely putting MORE luck based elements in does nothing for the game. Look at how bad adding random luck was for Halo: Reach with the bloom mechanic. Or how even in CCG's, where random draws are a built in factor, part of the game is building a good deck that minimizes the luck factor because it can hold its own no matter what you draw. I don't understand what's bad about putting luck in a fighting game. ESPECIALLY because it's done a lot. For example, Phoenix Wright in UMvC3, and by extension, the character who's based off him in Divekick, Markman. If you really think adding luck is such a bad idea, I'll probably end up adding an option to turn it off, and a poll about it, and if most people say no luck, I'll say no to crits in competitive. But I thought it was a good idea and a way to put super long, cool to watch combos in the game, but balance it and make them virtually impossible for competitive gameplay. Also, to add to characters who use luck, a more relevant character to Dustloop who uses luck, is Faust. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DylanTubularK Report post Posted September 29, 2013 SF4 1f links are actually 2f. There's a large difference. And well...you asked for constructive criticism, in a fighting game forum where people know a lot more about fighting games than you do. If you choose to argue and ignore advice, that's up to you. Just remember, as an independent developer, you're marketing to the Dustloop player more than the Marvel player. Edit: And yes, Rifle is saying good things. I'll make them 2f then if that's true. I didn't know that tbh. And also, saying "in a fighting game forum where people know a lot more about fighting games than you do." How do you know what I do know about fighting games and what I don't. And I'm really not arguing or ignoring your advice. IE, me taking 2f into account. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Xtra_Zero Report post Posted September 29, 2013 Rough draft everything before the actual programming. Get character biographies, artworks, plotlines, features, and other unique traits to the game done on paper first. Be nitpicky with your own work, and improve on it from there on, and keep adding to it. Once you have it all practically blueprinted, you will be ready for the actual programming, and there are tons of useful programs on Google to learn off of. It's still going to be hard work regardless, no matter how much experience you have with this kind of project. But once you have a firm grip on what you are doing, your only limitation is how far you want to take it. Wrong. Step one is programming. Nothing else matters until you have something moving on the screen. Anyone can write a design doc, but unless you have tons of money lying around it's not going to just make itself and nobody's going to want to code for you if you aren't paying them. If they're going to code without getting paid they'd rather work on their own ideas. "But how do you know what to do to work toward what you have in mind?" This is why you should learn programming, art, music, etc. You won't have to rely on others as much if you have some experience in everything yourself. You can see immediately if it's not right and fix it just as fast. Just start making something. Grab C# and Visual Studio, start an XNA project, and click run. Your game will open and you'll get a blank, blue screen. There's your template. From there start messing with things. Stop arguing about the system and characters and story because none of that matters until you have the means to make it. Get programming. Popular languages are: C#, Java, C++. C# with XNA is the most practical and easy to use to make games. C++ is the most traditional, but arguably the most difficult to make production-level games. Java is heavily used for other projects but it's a standard language that every programmer knows. There are plenty of tutorials online for XNA. Google is literally your best friend when coding. Get coding. Also, don't rule out things like GameMaker, Unity, and Mugen. Have you seen Card Sagas Wars? Check that out. It was made in Mugen. Don't let the name fool you, GameMaker is EXTREMELY solid. If you don't think you're ready to jump cold into programming, definitely check it out. It will help you understand what's going on under the hood as the game runs, and from there you can more easily see how cold code is morphed into a game engine. Personally, my path was C++ classes -> Java classes -> GameMaker -> XNA -> Android (Java). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RifleAvenger Report post Posted September 29, 2013 I don't understand what's bad about putting luck in a fighting game. ESPECIALLY because it's done a lot. For example, Phoenix Wright in UMvC3, and by extension, the character who's based off him in Divekick, Markman. If you really think adding luck is such a bad idea, I'll probably end up adding an option to turn it off, and a poll about it, and if most people say no luck, I'll say no to crits in competitive. But I thought it was a good idea and a way to put super long, cool to watch combos in the game, but balance it and make them virtually impossible for competitive gameplay. Also, to add to characters who use luck, a more relevant character to Dustloop who uses luck, is Faust. All the characters you've listed draw out random items. In every case besides maybe Wright, that's a balancing feature because a few of the items would be too powerful as a regular move (ex. Faust's meteors). Furthermore, when the item is seen, the opponent can react to it as normal. The process of drawing the item has the same animation for all items, and the damage and properties of an individual item are always the same. The player throwing an item must judge when it is wise to do so, it is a move to be used at the right time like any other. When I see Faust throw a bomb, I know how to react to that that, same for any of his other items, and I can defend myself if I act correctly. There's nothing I can do to defend myself from crits other than not getting hit (already doing that anyways) or forcing myself to hold onto a burst in case I get critical hit. Besides, for every Faust or Markman, how many characters are there in every game without said random mechanic? How many games have no character with such a mechanic? The answer is the vast majority of characters and games. The reason for this is that adding random chance into the mix of a competitive game is risky, and has to be carefully balanced along with the style of the game. CCG's restrict maximal card copies because otherwise players could stack their decks for first turn wins easy, so that mechanic uses random chance to improve the game. But to insert any sort of random chance into chess (ex. there's a X% chance that, when trying to take a piece, your piece is lost instead) would utterly destroy the game. Besides that, having random damage activate off of any old hit some % of the time is different than a character who throws items. Random damage increases will sometimes give a player a win solely because the computer determined it to be so, which doesn't seem very intriguing or fun to me. Do you know how many competitive Pokemon players HATE that critical hits are such a prevalent part of their game? Or that 10% of the time ice beam will just completely nullify a member of their team (freeze)? I've lost tournaments because the opposing player got 5 critical hits in a row, or froze one of my pokemon for 25 turns straight. I've won solely because I got a lucky crit in on a fully powered up sweeper. No one on the stage or in the crowd thought those moments were hype or examples of excellent play. Competitive gaming is about outwitting and outplaying the foe. It's about skill, quick thinking, and execution. Random critical hits undermine this, because it suddenly weights the outcome of the match in way that neither player could control. That's frustrating for the loser (who may have had a second chance the other 90% of the time) and unsatisfying to the winner. Because of that, counter hits are a better way to let players have "stronger combos." Because a counterhit is punishing one player for throwing out an attack at the wrong moment and rewarding the other for calling them out on it. There is a reason to give the second player their damage/corner carry/knockdown reward. As for generating "hype," idealistically the game should be able to generate that on its own through having solid play and a caring scene. The truth may be far from that, but not even MvC3 resorted to anything as poorly thought out as random critical hits. EDIT: I also want to point out how random tripping was universally hated in Super Smash Brothers Brawl. It's a good example of how adding extra random chance into a game to balance it (was supposed to prevent wavedashing) is rarely a good choice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SoWL Report post Posted September 29, 2013 Also, don't rule out things like GameMaker, Unity, and Mugen. Have you seen Card Sagas Wars? Check that out. It was made in Mugen. Isn't that just vaporware at this point, or do you mean the videos by "checking it out"? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Xtra_Zero Report post Posted September 29, 2013 Isn't that just vaporware at this point, or do you mean the videos by "checking it out"? I mean the videos. Yes, it seems to have disappeared off the planet, but the fact remains that at some point it really existed and it was made with Mugen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
furix Report post Posted September 29, 2013 If you are just an "idea guy" you won't get very far. Too many people wishing they could make games when they have no coding skills or artistic skills. They think they can go into it by just being the "idea guy". The industry doesn't need any storyline tellers or writers or "idea guys" telling them what to do. Go and learn some c++ and make your game, or if you can draw you could do that. Otherwise, writers are the least in demand. Normally, I'd close this thread, but I'll leave it open for now and let you sort yourself out. This thread doesn't really belong here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DogsofWar Report post Posted September 29, 2013 Please dont close this topic just yet. It's pretty entertaining. Randoms criticals for hype, come on that's priceless. This may be the most well crafted joke topic i've seen in awhile. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M19Kamikaze Report post Posted September 29, 2013 Important matches come down to luck A LOT. Yeaaaa... No. Luck does not equal hype. As for another example, despite it seeming like luck, hitting Fiona's Sacred moves (Arcana Heart 3) isn't luck, but in the timing. It's something you practice and either A) realize that there are more practical means to achieve win or B) gain that skill and create your own 'Evo/hype moment' with it. More or less, it still coms down to the mechanics. That seems to be the key point everyone's pointing out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Celerity Report post Posted September 29, 2013 Matches I've seen come down to luck = zero. Matches I've seen where stream monsters think they came down to luck = a lot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XDest Report post Posted September 29, 2013 You're not going to get anyone to do the art for free. If it's 2D art, sprite animations take a shitload of time. If it's 3D art, then you need somebody trained to make 3D models and animation. Actually programming a fighting game? If you learned programming or used an already made engine, it can be done. But if you don't have the assets, you're not going to get anywhere. The best way to get good art? You're going to need to pay people money for that, people won't do long, quality work for free unless it's something they really want to do on their free time. If you're just an idea guy, your chances of doing anything are almost nil. Get a skill, and start working on things yourself. If you have a design document and nothing else, who is actually going to make the game without getting paid otherwise? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucalibur Report post Posted September 29, 2013 Normally, I'd close this thread, but I'll leave it open for now and let you sort yourself out. This thread doesn't really belong here. I don't think there is a right place for a thread like this to begin with. I'm not saying it should not be made, I'm just saying that from my experience there are no places related to fighting games that would accept a thread like this, or anything like it. Hell, he could be asking for help with designing the game on paper only and I still can't imagine a place where he could make a thread like this. As much this thread is a joke due to the OP's lack of experience with how this sort of thing works, I can't quite blame him for making the thread here, as there are no 'real' options and sometimes we just have to try our luck. P.S: I'm not arguing or anything nor replying to you\Furix in specific over this, just bringing up a point due to that specific part of the post. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites