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Phrekwenci

Zappa Love+R (the practical AC+R thread)

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With a new game comes a new thread, and it seems a new character almost entirely. Please add to the discussion about Zappa in AC+R in this thread about your experience with the new (and improved!) Zappa and I will update the first few posts as good information comes from our discussion. I'll be making posts for each summon in this thread* and updating as necessary. Zappa owns your soul for free!

*I thought about making separate threads for the summons but decided it would just add clutter. I can be talked out of this in private messages of logical reasoning.

Edited by Phrekwenci

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I only have a few points about naked Zappa that have changed which will affect the way we've played before.

  • The 5Sf puddle will now knockdown the opponent. This move also seems to have more recovery than we're used to (in comparison to the timing I used to have with using this move in relation to 8D with the dog) and according to the wiki, the extra 3 frames of recovery makes a difference.
  • The 6HS travels a much shorter distance now, only just a bit farther than the 5HS does.
  • The summon 236P, only grants one orb on hit however it now legitimately OTGs a knocked down opponent. So after any knockdown you can run up 236P RC, 2HS JC, jP, jK, jS JC, jS, jD. On hit, it also seems to float the opponent higher. This seems to be good for using a summon to follow-up after 2D, 236P combos (ie.: 2D, 236P *ghost, 5P, 5S, 6S, 6S, 236D, see combos here). Because there is only one orb on hit, doing summon RC summon combos are wasteful. You are better off using tension with the overdrive for orbs instead.
  • The 3 centipede overdrive 632146HS will grant one orb on each hit. This move will also OTG a knocked down opponent.
  • The forcebreak 214D will grant 2 orbs on hit.

Edited by Phrekwenci

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The new dog in comparison to older versions now acts more like a game character because it now experiences push-back when attacking for both the dog and the opponent with every attack. The only attack that moves the dog forward no matter what is 8D. Because of this, the dog's corner pressure is not as strong because it will continue to be pushed out of the corner with every attack (including the dive). However, this new property is helpful to now sandwich the opponent between the dog and Zappa. As the dog attacks from the back, it will push the opponent into Zappa for combos (and infinites). Here are some more infinites by KBNova.

If you get the dog and the opponent into the corner, the best thing seems to mixup with 5HS and the bite. One thing I've been practicing is the following: 2HS, 5HS, 5D, 2D. On a crouching opponent it should get all 6 hits; the 5D should come out before the 5HS begins to hit while the 5HS should be hitting during the 2D startup. The last hit should be the bite which will knockdown. Obviously, once your opponent figures out to start blocking high, give them something low instead. I suggest using 5Sf as a low because it will knockdown, but 2K will work as well as a low. There isn't much pushback with the above combination so it works well for keeping them in the corner, if that's what you want. If you have tension you can get closer to Raoh by using the overdrive after the bite and then OTG summon for the last orb; similar to this combo by lynxfort. The problem is the bite cannot be the follow-up attack to the dog neck attack (5D) because then it will not give you orbs (it only gives orbs as the first attack).

Also, hitting the opponent in the air with either 6D or the dive of 4D will now ground the opponent immediately with a knockdown. The 2D bite will knockdown the opponent directly in front of the dog but is no longer unblockable. The dive and follow-up dive are now both overheads and can still be used to create unblockables.

Controlling the dog is a bit different in this version of the game. Most of the changes revolve around the retreat and dive inputs. See the possible combinations below of main attacks (the first attack) and follow-up attacks (if the main attack hits). Remember, you still are only allowed to attack with the dog twice, even though you may be inputting more than one D button combination, as the case with the 4D retreat.

The non-mobile dog moves are executed just like how we are used to in earlier versions of the game (5D and 2D). Remember a blocked 2D as the first hit will give one orb now.

5D, 5D

5D, 2D

5D, 6D

5D, 8D

5D, 4D, D

2D, 5D

2D, 2D

2D, 6D

2D, 8D

2D, 4D, D

The mobile dog moves are slightly different when using the dive attack which now will automatically dive at the opponent if holding back and hitting D. You may no longer command retreat the dog (the 4D animation) while it recovers from the first mobile dog attack. You can use the natural dog recovery backflip as the retreat in order to get a different trajectory for the follow-up attack. For example, connecting with 6D then delay the second 6D during the natural recovery backflip to get the dog to lunge over the opponent and get on the other side.

6D, D or 6D

6D, 8D

6D, 4D (no retreat animation; auto-dive)

8D, D or 6D

8D, 8D

8D, 4D (no retreat animation; auto-dive)

The retreat animation as the first move works more like a positioner for all mobile dog attacks instead of solely being used for the dive.

4D, D or 4D (all 4D follow-ups work, except the retreat animation; auto-dive)

4D, 6D (all 6D follow-ups work)

4D, 8D (all 8D follow-ups work)

Edited by Phrekwenci

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As we all know, the sword is dramatically different now in comparison to older versions of the game. The main new property is that nearly all sword moves will be in a moment of suspension (where it says in place) after attacking. It'll take about one round second for the sword to begin to return to Zappa after an attack that suspends the sword is used. You can "cancel" the return by attacking. Almost all sword special moves (except for the 63214HS swipe) will reset sword position by returning the sword back to Zappa. Also, many suspension sword moves will also move the sword from the original suspension location. Below is how each attack moves.

5Sc: Moves straight forward about one sword length

5Sf: Moves straight forward but a shorter distance than 5Sc

5HS: Moves straight forward but a bit greater than 5Sc

2S: Moves the sword diagonally down-forward about one sword length

2HS: Moves the sword diagonally up-forward about a bit greater than one sword length

6HS: Moves the sword diagonally down-forward about one sword length (it goes up a bit first)

jS: Moves the sword forward about one sword length

jHS: Moves the sword diagonally down-forward about half a sword length

63214HS: Moves the sword forward about half a sword length

236S (first hit only on connect with opponent): Moves the sword behind the opponent about two sword lengths

Instead of the swipe FRC into 2HS air combo, the new combo after the swipe is 5S, 2HS (2hits), 6HS (one-hit), 63214HS which will leave the sword high in the air*. 2HS will now gatling into 6HS. This is helpful because the 2HS is the only attack that moves the sword upward, so the 6HS will help move the sword back down to be easier to attack the opponent with. The 2HS attack moves the sword more than any other attack, so getting it back down will take some work or a special move reset. However, you can move the sword up and down by using crouching attacks; 2HS to go up and 2S to go down. Just remember when moving the sword, if it whiffs you have some recovery to deal with. Which is why some of the best tactics seem to be using the jumping normals, since Zappa is a moving target and the recovery is on landing.

*Because the sword and the opponent are so high, I can almost guarantee opponents will forward tech out at the end of the combo to advanced toward Zappa and away from the sword. You must be prepared for this in some way. Either by sword uppercut anti-air, sword rush evasion, or something else.

The moves above will only move the sword about 60% of the screen across before not being able to move forward any more. Zappa must close the gap by getting closer to the opponent in order to move the sword forward more if the opponent is on the complete opposite side of the screen. I will suggest to end ground gatlings with 2HS so that you can use jumping normals to close this gap and continue a combo. For this reason, learning the FRC point in the jHS will be crucial for our gameplay in the following BnB combo: jS, jHS FRC, jS, jHS or jK if close enough. For example (corner): 6P, 5Sc, 5Sf, 2S, 2HS (one-hit) JC, jS, jHS FRC, jS, jHS land, 2S, 2HS (one-hit), 6HS (one-hit), 63214HS.

When you (F)RC a sword move it will immediately go into suspension at the location it was when (F)RCed.

Both air normals must be blocked high, even if the sword is suspended low to the ground. The 2S is only a low hit if the suspension is at the same height as when the sword is with Zappa. If the sword is any higher, the 2S can be blocked high. The 6HS hits are still high first and low second no matter how high or low the sword is.

The sword somersault j236HS has a new FRC point which is activated when Zappa hits the ground for better recovery from the move. Along with the somersault, the uppercut 623HS and the sword rush 236S, HS will reset sword position. I feel the sword rush FRC is also easier now; it's at the point between when the sword is in the position for the attack and when it moves behind the opponent. For a more in-depth look at sword FRCs, check out this post in this thread by 9:02 PM. The sword rush speed and distance can be controlled by holding either back or forward after inputting the move. I believe this will be a good move to use for a few reasons.

  • Using the new speed control, you can make the move relatively safer on block or whiff the move on purpose for other shenanigans.
  • If the opponent is trying to evade the sword and get you by IADing high over it, I would use this move to go underneath (by holding forward) and "collect" the sword to reset the momentum. By holding forward, Zappa will travel approximately 60% of the screen.

It seems we will need to revert to our usual ghost air combo (P, P, P, P JC, P, P, P, D) if we end up attacking in the air because of the new sword suspension.

Because the sword can never be farther than 60% of the screen distance from Zappa, you can reposition the sword by backdashing if the sword ends up behind the opponent. As you know, backdashing will also help you evade the opponent's incoming offense after they get past the sword and give you some time to decide what to do next.

Video about mixups with the sword.

Edited by Phrekwenci

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While it might seem that the ghosts haven't changed much, they actually have changed quite a bit and you'll need to get used to them in comparison to older versions of Zappa.

When we used to continuously tap attack buttons with the ghosts, they would only perform a triplet combination of the attack button pressed. Furthermore, the distance that the attack reached would be fixed; meaning the ghosts would not compensate for push-back on connect. This has now changed. You can gatling any ghost attack into another ghost attack no matter the strength (except 6HS). For example, gatling 5HS, 5Sf, 2S works. This will also work on whiff. Furthermore, the distance the ghost moves depends on which ghost is attacking. The first ghost to attack has a terrible attack range, the second has an attack range more similar to AC but the third ghost moves very far from Zappa (about 60% screen length, except for 2S). So for example, you can whiff 2S, 2S and then use the third ghost 5HS and have it attack very far in front of Zappa. I've found myself getting the ghosts with a summon, using 2K to push them away and then doing 2S, 2S, 5HS. The 5HS should be right on top of them as they get up and can be replaced with 2HS also.

There is a small problem with this in relation to the ghost toss connection afterward. If you attack with the third ghost and then input a toss, the ghost will come out from Zappa's location (it will not be the ghost that just attacked), so the toss will not combo (unless using the D toss which MUST use all the ghosts available wherever they are). However, the 2HS explosion will now combo from the standing ghost attacks (except for 2S). So it is advised to end a gatling with an exploding ghost for a knockdown. A couple of other gatling quirks to note:

  • The 5Sc animation will only come out when attacking with the first ghost (close to the opponent of course) and does not have triplet attacks, the other animations afterward are the 5Sf ghosts. 5Sc will still gatling from and into 6P, which means 5Sc, 6P, 5Sc still works. The 5Sc does not count as one of the triplet attacks. So the following is a working combo: 5Sc, 6P, 5Sc, 5Sf, 5Sf, 5Sf (you'll see 4 ghost hits in succession here by simply pressing S after the 6P 4 times).
  • If you attack with all three ghosts, the 2D sweep will not combo after the third ghost. To sweep the opponent with 2D, you can only use two ghost hits or opt to explode a ghost as the third attack. In some cases, using only two ghosts in the gatling and then sweeping will work better for misfortuning purposes. As you can then connect with the K toss directly after the knockdown.

The ghosts have a new return command (214P) which will return a used ghost from either a toss or HS explosion. If you command return the ghost that misfortuned the opponent, the opponent will lose misfortune. There is some priority with returning ghosts that I'm still trying to figure out.

The jHS now has increased startup and can no longer be comboed into from jS. However, the jS (not j2S) can combo into jK and jD. So it seems we can do sword type air combos except that the jS is not jump-cancellable. This works: jP, jK, jP JC, jP, jS, jD. Speaking of jumping attacks, no jumping ghost normal is counted as a high attack. They can all be blocked low. The only overhead ghost attack is the 6HS.

There are two new ghost normals; 6S which moves diagonally up-forward with each button press and j2S which hits underneath Zappa while in the air, but each ghost moves closer to Zappa (opposed to moving away like all the other moves). There was an execution heavy combo that was possible in AC which called for a TK ghost toss FRC in the corner: 6P, 5Sc JC, jP, 236K FRC, jS, jHS land, 5Sc JC air combo. You can do something easier using the new j2S air normal (you don't even need the corner): 6P (or 5Sc) JC, j2S, 236K FRC, jK land 5Sc ground combo. The falling jK is an overhead and should open the opponent up given how long you stay in the air for it (and the FRC flash).

Misfortune works a bit differently now also. With each ghost you connect with, a misfortune item come out immediately. So connecting with the D toss using all three ghosts; three random misfortune items will come out. Then after those items come out, 3 more items will come out how we are used to seeing them (one over time every so often). After those three items are out (after the initial hit items), then the ghost will return to Zappa. So you can have a maximum of 6 misfortune items after one connected (D) toss. And speaking of misfortune, the flower pot item will immediately ground and knockdown the opponent on hit. This will definitely screw up your combos so be ready for it.

Edited by Phrekwenci

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A few new things for Raoh added from older versions.

  • The Last Edguy 214S can now be done in air. If you do it in the air, you will not be able to recover until you hit the ground or RC it.
  • The Darkness Anthem 236S, P or K or S or HS (new!) can be done in air. You can only do one Darkness Anthem per jump. The new HS follow-up moves only about half screen.

Credit to Hellscream for the following combo (in the corner): jHS land, jS, jHS, 236S, 66 (air dash), jS, jHS land, sjHS, 236S, jHS land, run up 214S. Without the corner the second 236S wont connect.

Edited by Phrekwenci

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So I can't put this in the ghost section yet because I don't know what's happening but I've done some testing with returning the ghosts. Sometimes the ghost that misfortuned the opponent will return to Zappa while another ghost is still yet to be returned. Obviously, we would want the misfortuned ghost to return last. I've tried a number of different scenarios but nothing really produces the same results every time. Here's what I've tried.

Connect a toss, whiff a toss, 214P

Connect a toss, whiff a toss FRC, 214P

Whiff a toss, connect a toss 214P

Different distances between the ghosts and Zappa

Different ghost recoveries (return directly after FRCing the toss, return when ghost is stuck after toss, return when ghost is in auto-return)

And of course, different types of tosses

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I don't have a 360 nor a vita but there is something that worries me quite a bit based on your informations (Who are actually really helpful. Thank you very much for that.).

Did you try the AC dog combos in +R ? If that is the case, is it still possible to do stuff like 4DD>2K>cS>fS>5D>2K>cS>fS>2D in the corner or the pushback for the dive is way too strong ?

Also, based on what you said, it seems that the combos midscreen will be much easier to set up. However, are they different compared to AC ? And what about the damage ?

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The 4DD doesn't place the dog where it hits the opponent any longer, it flies backward similar to what happens when the 6D connects. You'll never get a bite to connect in the corner simply by using the dive to position the dog. Like I said above, the only attack that will move the dog forward is the 8D. You could also use 4D (as the retreat) 6D (while in the retreat animation) to make the dog fly over the opponent and into the corner. However, this makes the dog fly so far into the corner, many of his attacks will whiff there.

I don't know about damage. I understand everyone in the game had their healthbars increased so that will be a factor with any match. You can do some of the midscreen stuff from AC but it really helps by having the dog behind the opponent because each dog attack will push the opponent back into Zappa. It also seems that the 5D isn't the best option midscreen because it doesn't push the dog back much. Many of the Japanese players tend to use 4DD and 6D instead to get the dog to move back farther than 5D (see the infinite above).

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Ohh I get it now ! I did see some matches but I never noticed that 4DD resulted in the same thing as 6D.

As for 5D, yeah it explains why they didn't use it at all in the matches I saw or why the Zappa player mostly used 6D during the infinite.

Another question then if you don't mind. Considering you said before that 6D and 4DD (the auto-dive like you call it) immediately knockdown on air hit, did you mean that it's impossible to combo afterwards or you can followup with cS or even 2H for an air combo ?

Edited by Magaki

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If you have the right position and are ready for the hit to connect, you can certainly hit them before the opponent touches the ground and juggle with either 5Sc or 2HS. You can try connecting with 8D and then hit D again because both the opponent and the dog will be in the air and see what happens in terms of timing.

Edited by Phrekwenci

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I played a couple of sets of +R and gosh... Zappa is so different now, feels like a completely new character and he seems a loooot more complicated now. I was just praying to get ghosts, because sword and dog just work different and have other purposes now. I feel like I'll have to grind out training mode again : )

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Repost from another thread:

All of the reference images are the first FRC'able frame, and apologies for the weird video speed, but the youtube playback speed thing is strange.

The FRC point for 623H (the DP) and 63214H (the slash) always begin on the same frame after startup regardless of where the sword and/or opponent are in relation to Zappa. 623H always begins on the 13th frame from when you hit H, and 63214H always begins on the 17th frame

If the sword is right next to Zappa, this is what you'll be looking at:

2e0pppl.png

But sometimes you could be looking at something like this:

14447d.png

The best visual cue for the DP is just before the little blood splash reaches its peak.

The FRC point for 63214H always begins on the 17th frame, which looks like this:

28aksuu.png

THe FRC point for j. 236H always begins on the first grounded recovery frame, which gives him a funky animation:

34yxjjp.png

His sword charge (236S) is probably the weirdest, the FRC point begins on frame 15 AFTER the move actually makes contact. Its' actually pretty easy to execute since the correct frames are just as he touches the ground again.

296i23d.png

I can't tell you exactly how many frames the FRC points are, but I can say that 623H and j. 236H are at least three frame windows, and 63214H I was able to successfully FRC as late as frame 22, so it's a pretty large window.

Here's a reference video if you want to see everything in slow motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYOoTIbV1O4

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EDIT: Here's the video.

If you are really quick and observant, you can pull off some combos directly after the OTG summon. The idea here is to be naked and do 2P, 2K, 2D buffer in a run (66) during the 2D and then after the 2D recovery is over, rush in and 236P. The momentum will get you close enough after the recovery of the summon to attack as the opponent is floating from the OTG starting with a quick standing punch (5P). Here's what I've done afterward directly after the summon:

Roah: 5P, 5S, 214S (easiest since you always know when it's coming).

Ghosts: 5P, 5S, 6S, 6S, 236D (you must use the D toss to connect in the combo, the regular 236HS toss will not combo).

Sword: 5P, 5S, 2HS (2hits), 6HS (1hit), 64123HS (this will put the sword high in the air, I suggest doing a short 236S sword rush to bring it back down).

Dog: 4P, 4K, 4D, 6D6 (run while dog attacks), 2HS JC, jK, jS JC, jK, jS (this works but it's hard as hell, the trick is to hold back directly after the summon and basically time when the dog is out of recovery and immediately retreat to put the dog in the air to attack).

Obviously, the one to practice is the 5P, 5S versions as they are for both the sword and ghosts while the dog is the hardest since it is execution heavy.

Edited by Phrekwenci

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So, here's something I've been playing with. I noticed Chonari in a few vids doing dog 8D in the corner with the dog to help with the new push back. Within a normal corner lockdown combo he would whiff the 8D backflip and with that Zappa would jump in with jP, jS. He had it in a combo but I haven't gotten the setup down. Instead, I use it during a block string and maybe open up the opponent with an overhead.

(while opponent blocking, dog just out of range for neck attack): 5P, 2K, 5Sc, 5Sf, 6D, 9D (Zappa jumps also), falling jS as overhead, 5P, 2K... dog is now near opponent again.

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When i should use sword's J236H ??

Good question. Since there's no real air-to-air combos with the sword any longer, I don't think it's all that useful as an air combo ender unless you want to bring the sword back to you. The only thing that may be useful is TKing it as a mixup but I don't know if it even counts as a high attack. I'd have to check.

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It can be used to re-position the sword when the opponent is slipping past it. It creates a hitbox between Zappa and the sword's old position that can catch the opponent by surprise, and is FRC-able on landing to ensure it's safe and the sword's back near you.

For example, if you go for an instant neutral j.S and the normal wiffs behind the opponent, you can still j.236H before hitting the ground and catch the opponent trying to counter attack by filling the space between with the spinning sword.

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It can be used to re-position the sword when the opponent is slipping past it. It creates a hitbox between Zappa and the sword's old position that can catch the opponent by surprise, and is FRC-able on landing to ensure it's safe and the sword's back near you.

The only problem I have is this move keeps Zappa stuck in animation and recovery frames more than the other moves that return the sword. I think there are better options to return the sword. The sword rush 236S is probably the best, with the 623HS coming directly after (only the uppercut attacks, so if the sword is far away and the opponent is close to Zappa, it can be punished easier).

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The only problem I have is this move keeps Zappa stuck in animation and recovery frames more than the other moves that return the sword. I think there are better options to return the sword. The sword rush 236S is probably the best, with the 623HS coming directly after (only the uppercut attacks, so if the sword is far away and the opponent is close to Zappa, it can be punished easier).

Heh, it sounds like you don't wiff 7/8j.S as much as I do! :sweat: Unless I show that I'm not afraid to j.236H my recovery for the surprise hit, my opponents tend to counter-attack/pressure after the wiff and can keep me from even landing. The move's not too hard to "wiff-confirm" and is pretty much the only good hitbox you can throw out in that scenario. With the FRC point to kill the recovery, it can be worth the gamble by restoring things to neutral (and making them think twice about counter-attacking immediately in those scenarios), especially when the alternative is letting them get in with your sword out of the picture.

But I agree that the other two moves should naturally see more use in a match (especially if you're not ass like me at the sword-rush FRC...).

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Ah yes, I suppose if you are already in the air then that is your best option. With the sword, I tend to stay out of the air unless I lock them down on the other side of the screen and then I start the 2HS, jS, jHS FRC pressure.

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