[CP] Noel Vermillion - Critique Thread

[Litherain-XIII]

A side note that I would like to see all Noels do (including myself) is use RC pressure more. An example drive string>d.2D>RC then pick between >air dash>j.C>j.B>drive cancel mixup or >land>2B. This and the spring raid RC>j.C>drive cancel mixup are things that I've only been seeing JP Noels do and it lands them hits a lot.

That is kinda gimmicky and requires a respecting opponent (which in america we aint trying to respect noel period so ima DP her shit because i cant stand blocking 4 shit mentality) otherwise ive already tried this before back in CS2 and EX and honestly it only works for me if the drive strings are kept extremely short. an example of this is something like pressure stuff > 6D > BT(1) > RC > mirco dash 6B. it works alot of the time and surprisingly most block low after the RC so 6B just picks up for some good damage.

[EXonestar]

Thx for the critique. My friend is going to look at it , in a moment.

Much Appreciated.

[bakahyl]

Try to anti air more. Most of the time that Noel did not even try to use her 6a and Mu's air normals are not that good to hit people on the ground

Don't be afraid to actually dash up to Mu more. Mu cannot recklessly throw out 5c or habaya because Noel's 3c goes under these moves and Noel's 5c can beat Mu's 5c due to the extended hurtbox on Mu's 5c before the move is active. (and CH 5c leads to very high damaging combos) And Noel is more dangerious at close range than Mu

Throwing out 4d every time after Mu's 5b or 6a is risky, because these normals can either go to lows or (which i sometimes tend to do against Noel) is jump cancellable into j.2c and CH Noel's 4d every time

Avoid using raw 2d in cp. It's not as good as in cse and Mu can easily punish that now

edit: a mistake that i also noticed is that after Noel whiffed her drives at fullscreen, she still did assault through at the end. I usually throw out a habaya to deal free damage because Noel can't go through it with assault through at that range

Edited March 10, 2014 by bakahyl
typo

[Ayane]

That is kinda gimmicky and requires a respecting opponent (which in america we aint trying to respect noel period so ima DP her shit because i cant stand blocking 4 shit mentality) otherwise ive already tried this before back in CS2 and EX and honestly it only works for me if the drive strings are kept extremely short. an example of this is something like pressure stuff > 6D > BT(1) > RC > mirco dash 6B. it works alot of the time and surprisingly most block low after the RC so 6B just picks up for some good damage.

It's gimmicky but so is what you posted. the d.2D RC is pretty hard to see coming. and you can use the SR RC to bait punishes.

[LunaKage]

Personally if I'm gonna spend meter it's going to be for one of three reasons:

1. Make something stupid and risky safe/safer

2. Finish off the round/match with a Super Ender

3. Keep on an opponent who was godlike enough to actually block everything

Number 3 is super important to me in CP, since Noel's main objective while up close is to land a hit with her tools. The gimmick/option that you posted is fine if that particular combo will kill and you just need a bit more damage, but the way I see it, Noel's mixup and baiting options are good enough as it is, they just allow your opponent to escape if they block/don't take the bait.

Basically what I'm saying is: Personally I'm not going to bother using a trick that needs meter just to work, when Noel's basic options are strong enough when used correctly meterless, and thus saving that meter to cover your bases if they blocked, or to kill them if you get a chance.

I feel like keeping as much meter as you can is so important for Noel in CP, since it's so much more rare in CP than it was in Extend, 50% heat can mean the difference between a win and a loss. I've actually had several situations occur, where my opponent blocked my first barrage of mixups, I rapid canceled to allow a couple more mixups, I HIT THEM FINALLY, but then I couldn't kill them since I didn't have enough meter to Fenrir at the end of the confirm, so I had to go for another mixup/bait situation.

[Ayane]

Alright so here's tetsu yarou doing what i was talking about http://youtu.be/b8M4BPXB8RI?t=26m21s I'd say he's a good Noel so I wouldn't expect him to just be doing stuff that never works for him or he thinks is bad. Also if the opponent is crouching the d.2D it makes it even harder for them to react to. To me this is no different than Chie's Rampage>RC stuff.

I've seen the SR>RC so many times but here's Shino doing it against the best v-13. http://youtu.be/XIxKj9nSHh0?t=6m33s Shino being one of the best and my favorite Noel I'd say the same thing goes for him. And don't forget you can also SR>RC>j.4D and the same can go for the d.2D RC. Another thing Shino likes to do a lot is 6D>RC>2B and it landed almost every time he did it. And even though he probably has the best defense out of all the Noel's I've seen. He still uses his meter on counter assault quite a bit. He basically uses his meter on everything (besides CT) evenly.

As for it being gimmicky. Everything Noel does is gimmicky. You guys do know that her drive mixup isn't legit in the first place right? You literally can't make them respect your mixup unless you d.6C. In fact, I have an entire list of what all can be done to each drive into another drive if you guys want me to post it somewhere. Gimmicks aren't a bad thing. Honest characters like Makoto lack a lot of this and I think it's a pretty big reason why shes so low tier. That being said I wouldn't consider Kokonoe as a character who needs to use gimmicks to win. She has tons of them but her tools are such BS that she doesn't need them.

I'm not saying if you don't use these your bad or anything. It's actually really cool that Noel can be played so many ways. But please don't just brush this off and act like it's terrible (though you may not have been).

[Litherain-XIII]

i wasnt brushing it off. i was implying ive tried this method several times before in the past including the d.2D > RC stuff and SR>RC>j.4D in the past i just refrain myself from doing it anymore. if someone is mashing stuff then its like arggghhh..... if they respect then cool its pretty nifty. SR>RC>j.4D just get thrown out of by mashing grab by the time the j.4D lands its annoying >_> its netplay so oh well i guess. the last time ive tried d.2D > RC > 2B it whiffed on barrier. d.2D pushed me out on barrier block and i was sad T_T 6D>RC>2B is actually more plausable imo since they probably expecting d.6B majority of the time and ive done it atleast twice in cp its pretty good me like it.

[Ayane]

Yea I think netplay is a big part of it. But I think higher level players tend to respect more since they are probably more confident in their blocking so it might work better on them. If people your playing against are in love with their DP you can just start 4Ding in the middle of your drive pressure to let them hang themselves. The 6D>RC>2B thing is def rly good as well and I'll probably try to implement that and CA more.

[LunaKage]

Actually, higher level players DP every chance they get, they only block if they feel that a 4D is coming.

[neojammerzx]

Hi guys...would love to know your thoughts on how to improve better from these set vids...

 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTQn9DzvMD5blyLLMkeoxJDSJMEicV1o-

 

Thanks

[DeaDz29]

I'm still pretty new to BlazBlue, CP is my first serious BB entry, feel like I'm stuck at where to go, would really apreciate any help.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2IX1dMNR-g

 

Lengthy video, I know I apologize. This is the newest BB video I have uploaded.

 

Be as harsh as you want, I need all the help I can get.

[Ayane]

I only watched one match but heres what I would I would say.

 

Don't use j.D in neutral so much. Maybe use it if you are trying to bait an anti air (and are right above them) but other than that its basically for combos and sometimes cross up pressure resets (5B>5C>IAD>j.D).

 

I'm sure you already know but you really gotta work on your confirms. Noel doesn't have a whole lot going for her but something she definitely has is consistent damage. Every touch you get should be getting around 2K at least.

 

It looked like you were kind of unsure what to do at neutral. You probably just need to practice your movement more. Noel is pretty fast so you should be moving around pretty fast as well. Test opponents with IAD. Dash>Barrier is your best friend. Jump at them and barrier, then jump again to try and confuse them and bait out AAs.

 

Once you get that down you will need to learn Noel's pressure. Drive pressure is a pretty easy thing to learn but it's also kinda meh. Stagger pressure is something you will really need to know. Basically you want to do things like 2A, dash 2A, 2B, 2B/5B. leaving tiny amounts of space in between your gatlings allows opponents to mash, and then get punished because their wasn't enough space for their move to get active. You can also cancel into drive pressure any time you want. And don't forget about throws.

 

Something you will want to learn later once you are used to the other characters animations is to 4D overheads that you can react too. This works on most of the cast and is literally saying "Fuck your mixup". This often gets opponents scared and confused about what to do with their pressure.

 

That's a good amount of things to work on, not sure if you were lagging or not in the video but it could easily be the case. Lag often messes up my movement/neutral completely but in good 2 bars and 3 bars I can do it.

 

Keep working at it and get ready for people to rage at you! :D

[DeaDz29]

@Ayane

 

Thanks for the input!

 

I knew using j.D so much was bad...for some reason I started using that a lot and I can't even say why I started doing that, it is something I am currently working on.

 

Confirms have been a problem with me on every fighting game I play...I've gotten better at confirming since playing CP, so that's a + I guess.

 

You are right about me not knowing what to do at nuetral....I've never had a good nuetral game, I don't really know how to work on improving that. You are also right about movement being a problem as well, but that's mainly from still transistioning to a arcade stick, but IAD is something I had problems with even on pad.

 

Good to know on that 4D overhead stuff, what kind of stuff can 4D go through anyway? I've been trying to figure out everything it goes through.

 

When it comes to lag in the video, there was none, the connection was silky smooth.

 

Again, thanks for the input, I appreciate it. 

[Sashi]

4D goes through basically all attacks except jumping non-projectile attacks and low attacks. And throws, obviously.

[Ayane]

And by low attacks he just means attacks that hit Noel's feet. It doesn't have to be an attack that has to be blocked low.

[ScopeyDoo]

Hi, I have some gameplay I'd like critiqued if possible.

 

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66KOeeTwBHE

 

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbgCGBa6wF8&feature=youtu.be

 

My main concern is; have I formed any bad habits? I feel like I rely too much on 4D. Also I've been told by a more experienced player that my movement is poor. 

 

Any help and advice will be much appreciated.

 

Thanks

[Ayane]

Here's some replays I saved from April. Feel free to critique it but tbh I think I know most of the things I do wrong at this point besides specific MU stuff. Just gotta work on reactions but it's hard on netplay Q.Q

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgZIV1UtuUk

[Ayane]

 

Hi, I have some gameplay I'd like critiqued if possible.

 

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66KOeeTwBHE

 

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbgCGBa6wF8&feature=youtu.be

 

My main concern is; have I formed any bad habits? I feel like I rely too much on 4D. Also I've been told by a more experienced player that my movement is poor. 

 

Any help and advice will be much appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

 

IDK if I would say your movement is poor but the movement options you chose are often strange to me. There were a lot of times where you would kind of just stand there and let Jin come to you which is weird to me because I'd rather be the one putting the pressure on Jin rather than letting him start it on me. I try to approach Jin using basically all of your movement options. He has answers for all of them but most of his answers have long recovery so you will at least be able to start pressure on him if not right out punish him. Use dash barrier more to safely approach him.

 

I think it's more of a matter of learning how to space your normals better and also picking better normals to space with depending on your opponent. Also you were picking kind of odd times to mash but that's part of learning the matchup.

 

It seems like you def would rather 4D or backdash than block anything. That is def a bad habit especially with the backdash nerfs coming in 1.1. I think a lot of Noel's (including me especially on netplay) have the bad habit of being like "Fuck blocking it's my turn now." and using 4D a ton. It's actually pretty stupid how easy it is to beat 4D yet it works so often on the not so good to average players that it seems like its broken. What I did/do to try and break the habit is literally just tell my friends that im playing how to beat it. This forces me to learn to block and helps them with the MU and really doesn't affect the usefulness of 4D. Then if/when you go to a tournament and you fight someone who already know's the MU you won't be getting blown up for spamming it. It just takes practice getting used to blocking and IBing over just 4Ding all the time. In casuals you should definitely go for the knowledge over the win. 

[ScopeyDoo]

IDK if I would say your movement is poor but the movement options you chose are often strange to me. There were a lot of times where you would kind of just stand there and let Jin come to you which is weird to me because I'd rather be the one putting the pressure on Jin rather than letting him start it on me. I try to approach Jin using basically all of your movement options. He has answers for all of them but most of his answers have long recovery so you will at least be able to start pressure on him if not right out punish him. Use dash barrier more to safely approach him.

 

I think it's more of a matter of learning how to space your normals better and also picking better normals to space with depending on your opponent. Also you were picking kind of odd times to mash but that's part of learning the matchup.

 

It seems like you def would rather 4D or backdash than block anything. That is def a bad habit especially with the backdash nerfs coming in 1.1. I think a lot of Noel's (including me especially on netplay) have the bad habit of being like "Fuck blocking it's my turn now." and using 4D a ton. It's actually pretty stupid how easy it is to beat 4D yet it works so often on the not so good to average players that it seems like its broken. What I did/do to try and break the habit is literally just tell my friends that im playing how to beat it. This forces me to learn to block and helps them with the MU and really doesn't affect the usefulness of 4D. Then if/when you go to a tournament and you fight someone who already know's the MU you won't be getting blown up for spamming it. It just takes practice getting used to blocking and IBing over just 4Ding all the time. In casuals you should definitely go for the knowledge over the win. 

 

Thanks a lot!

I'll try and make a conscious effort to improve on the things you said. Would you advise just not using 4D at all for awhile and force myself to block more? 

[Ayane]

Thanks a lot!

I'll try and make a conscious effort to improve on the things you said. Would you advise just not using 4D at all for awhile and force myself to block more? 

Hrm that is kind of extreme but it might help you a lot in the long run!

 

What I use to do to get in the habit of just blocking was put the CPU on expert and go to versus mode, fight them and see if you can survive until time out off of just blocking. This obv works better with some characters compared to others but it's a good start just to get into the habit of being patient.

 

Also something I did was I would go into training mode and record my opponent doing various mixups EX: Jin 5B>2B, 5B>6A, 5B>throw, 5B>6B. Then I would have the game play them back at random and practiced blocking, reacting to 6As with 4D instead of block, and reacting to 6Bs with 5A instead of block or 4D.

 

It's good for Noel players general reaction to a standing OH to be 4D because there are only a few characters whose standing OH's beat 4D while most will straight up lose to it and won't be able to RC.

[RockinGamma]

Say, anyone wanna bop me for free? Then tell me what Im doing wrong :3

[MahouShoujoA]

Can i get some input on my play? Went to my first tourney/major this weekend and managed to get on stream so i finally have some footage.

http://www.twitch.tv/funkyp/b/542616160
1.29.50, then 2:26:04 is next match

There was some confusion in the first match because we were playing criss cross (Names on wrong side). I'm the yellow noel. After the first match, i didnt take the time to swap myself to P2 side cuz i wanted to get back in immediately to not loose momentum.
Against the koko i realized she was up backing out of my pressure often, but i wasnt sure what to do to prevent that.

[Monarch]

Here are a few of my netplay matches: http://youtu.be/PpJwSbMqx_w

I fight on and off, so here are the timestaps when I play: 4:17, 11:18, 15:05, 18:18, 21:28, 36:17, 53:16, 56:16, 59:10, 1:02:25, 1:06:13, 1:12:41, 1:15:36, 1:20:02, and 1:24:12.

Any feedback would be appreciated!

[L0n3l1eR]

Here are a few of my netplay matches: http://youtu.be/PpJwSbMqx_w

I fight on and off, so here are the timestaps when I play: 4:17, 11:18, 15:05, 18:18, 21:28, 36:17, 53:16, 56:16, 59:10, 1:02:25, 1:06:13, 1:12:41, 1:15:36, 1:20:02, and 1:24:12.

Any feedback would be appreciated!

ehh learn the basic midscreen carry combos and the grab combo in the corners lol.also over drive cancel combos lol.. but it doesnt matter.. bbcp 2.0 noel bnb changed a lot..

[LunaKage]

Not sure why the user CP stopped informing me of posts in this thread, I've missed too much here.

 

Anyway, Frost, I'm gonna take a look at your first match and give pointers as I see them.

 

First off, get more comfortable with your anti-air confirms, there's no good reason to ever go with 6A > j.AAA. Also, if you ever see that Mu player again, tell him that bursting that combo was a complete waste of a burst.

 

It's a good idea to Jump forward > Air Barrier when facing zoners, it allows you to inch your way in better, and it will help save you from eating random Swords of Decimation.

 

Starting the round with 5C isn't a bad idea generally, but against characters that out-range you, it's a terrible idea. Mu's 5C completely shits all over Noel's normals, especially at round start. If you're going to hit buttons on round start against Mu, you're gonna want to either 2D or Microdash 4D, both are good ideas against Mu's 5C, but for the most part, you should start by getting out of Mu's effective range first, then work your way back into the neutral game.

 

Combos combos combos, get them down. Dropping combos happens to even the best players, but I haven't seen you land a single one. If Noel isn't making the most out of her hits, she gets literally nowhere.

 

As soon as I finish writing that, I see you actually land a full combo, proud of you :3

However, it was the wrong combo in all honesty, in that situation, you should have done 4D > d.2D > d.6B > d.5C > d.5B > 236A > 665B > sj.C > j.D > d.2D > d.5B > 214D(opponent ends up in the corner) > 662B > 6C(2) > 6B > 22. Generally, you should aim to ALWAYS end a combo in 22B, a single hit of 22B midscreen, a about 4 or 5 hits of 22B in the corner, since that gives you the best wakeup options.

 

Aww, I was almost gonna be really proud of you. Sometimes muscle memory gets the better of you, and instead of doing the midscreen combo off of overhead d.6B, you go for the corner confirm, except it doesn't work midscreen. I totally understand, since this happens to me sometimes as well, no big deal. You RC'd the first hit of Bloom Trigger, and that's good, you can continue the combo from there, but you didn't, you didn't even really try, granted, this is something I've only ever seen myself do, but I'm sure I'm not the only one. The combo for this is: d.6B > d.5C > d.6D > 236D(1) > Rapid > 665B > sj.C > j.D > d.6B > d.5C > d.6B > 22C~66 > 6C > 6B > 22B

 

If you're going to use 2D as a part of your blockstring, make sure you're doing it when:

1. Your opponent is in the corner, as this will beat jump outs, and confirm into a decent combo.

or

2. Your opponent is mashing barrier midscreen, and you're now a good distance away from your opponent, it's usually best to wait until 5C is blocked from max range, since this is a good spot to 2D, worst case scenario, is you land in front of them, which is the expected result, best case scenario is you just barely cross over them, thus landing a crossup 2D, and yes, it's still possible.

 

Well, that was the match. Work on these things, and give us another video in about a month or so.