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LunaKage

[CP] Noel Vermillion - Gameplay Discussion

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dbbenDVQYI

 

This is a 4 part video series I'm working on, so far only this video is finished, but it gives you a good idea of what to expect, also gives you the best confirms into oki/super from all of her short starters too, which is something you need to know.

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Anyone been using any fancy corner oki or resets lately? I'm looking for some new tricks to try out...

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Here's a question for anyone who feels like helping me get better at beating them lol.

I've been getting blown up by netplay Noel tactics (i.e. poking into 5D 6B/D mixup) a lot and it's super annoying. I know you can reversal/mash/jump out of some drive combinations but not all, does anyone want to try to break down her pressure options for me? I.e. what strings frametrap jump startup, what can be mashed or reversaled or backdashed, etc.?

I play Izayoi if that helps at all.

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>Netplay Noel Tactics
>Lists something that's not netplay tactics at all.

 

At any point Noel goes into drive from a normal string, she can be poked out of, if you're too late though, you will get CH, and a 5D starter is gonna hurt like hell, so watch out for that.

 

As far as during Drive strings, you can actually reversal between any two moves, the only thing you can't really poke out of is any drive attack into d.5A, that will keep you honest, though you can still reversal if you IB the previous move.

 

As a rule of thumb, Noel's true threat during drive is her mixup, so figuring out at which point the Noel player likes to d.6B or d.6D during her drive strings, will allow you to poke her out everytime, thus forcing her to do other options other than the mixup at that point, such as d.4D to bait DPs, but since you're Izayoi and you'll probably be using 2A to poke out most of the time, her d.2D will beat that. Also be wary of using Izayoi's super at any time, sure it's safe on block, but Noel's 4D and d.4D will beat it every time, there's absolutely no reason for Noel to block that move, even if 4D wont hit Izayoi, it's always gonna be a better option to have both moves whiff for Noel.

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Actually, I just did some testing of my own and I don't think that's entirely correct.

 

5C 5D is a pretty small gap on regular block.  I can't seem to beat it with Izayou's 6f 5A even in IB, I just get counterhit.  It may work if you do it on the very first frame but I wasn't able to hit it.

 

The following is airtight:

- Anything > 5A or 5B

- 6A > 6B

- 6D > 6A

 

The following frametraps jump startup:

- 5D > 6A

- 6B > 6A

- 6D > 6B

- 5A delay > 6A

 

The following can be jumped and barriered but will break non-airblock:

- 5D > 6B

- 5A > 6B

 

I wouldn't try to mash any of those though, not with Izayoi 8f 2A or 5A that whiffs on crouch.  Still good to know what can be safely up-backed though.

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Uhm, if Noel does 5C - 5D, you can just mash A to break out.  And anything - 6B isn't air tight.  6B has a hella long startup.  Or maybe I don't understand what you're trying to say.  Are you talking about Noel or Izayoi?

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Those are interesting findings, I guess they buffed the blockstun more than I thought.

 

I suppose the absolute safest thing you could do would be to Barrier block Drive and push her out. If I'm not mistaken, if you barrier a 5D/6D > d.5A, the next move should whiff if it's a d.6B or a d.6D. Though there are things Noel can do if she notices you Barrier blocking to kind of put her at advantage, sort of at least. We can do a string that puts you in range to have to block a 236A, which is +3, though we'd be too far away to actually use that to continue pressure, though ending any confrontation at +3 is much better than nothing.

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Uhm, if Noel does 5C - 5D, you can just mash A to break out.  And anything - 6B isn't air tight.  6B has a hella long startup.  Or maybe I don't understand what you're trying to say.  Are you talking about Noel or Izayoi?

He just got the notation wrong, except in the cases he mentioned 5C, he was talking about the drive moves, so when he said 6B, he meant d.6B.

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Uhm, if Noel does 5C - 5D, you can just mash A to break out. And anything - 6B isn't air tight. 6B has a hella long startup. Or maybe I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you talking about Noel or Izayoi?

You can't mash A to poke out, that was my point. You might be able to on IB but it's pretty tight especially if you don't have a 5f jab. Not to mention if your jab doesn't hit crouching she can 6D to go under it if she expects mashing.

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You can't mash A to poke out, that was my point. You might be able to on IB but it's pretty tight especially if you don't have a 5f jab. Not to mention if your jab doesn't hit crouching she can 6D to go under it if she expects mashing.

 

You can definitely do it on IB. Nu can IB 5C and 5A Noel out of her 5D. They made Noel's drive more legit for pressure in CP so it makes sense there isn't a free way out of it.

 

Though if you are really concerned if she will 6D to prevent your 5A, you can just throw her after IBing 5C. It catches both 5D and 6D after an IB'd 5C,

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That's not gonna be a great idea most of the time Toan, a Noel who actually knows what they're doing is gonna space the hell out of that. usually a well spaced 5C > Max Range 5D is used to get stuff going, from there we choose our path based on what you have done in the past when put in this situation. Also, if you try to throw, and we use 2D instead, you'll get CH, midscreen, a 2D when used at this point will also crossup.

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I know there are different options. I was just giving him an option that covered both of the options he discussed. If she is within range that 5C > 6D would hit, then you can throw her out of 5D. Noel's 5D moves her pretty far forward before going active so she would need to be practically max range of 5C for the 5D to avoid the throw. Of course, she could just 2D to avoid the throw. Or 2C and probably some other stuff. Safest option is just block.

 

And since I am here, I might as well ask. What do you do against Murakumo backdashes?

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During pressure you can call out Murakumo backdashes with 2D, with the added benefit that if they don't backdash you get a crossup, and if they jump back, they're forced to block it at worst, at best they'll get hit out of jump startup.

 

2D is kind of an all purpose spacing tool now, it's kind of like a jump in with more commitment, as always it's biggest threats are anti-airs, and psychic airgrabs.

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I'm still not buying that you can't just A mash out a Drive starter after 5C.  I'm pretty sure you can mash out 5D, 6D, 4D, and even 2D.  ALL of Noel's Drive starters have a decent sized gap before they go active.

 

I'm gonna independently verify this tonight after work.

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5C is a level 4 move with 18 frames of blockstun. 5D has 23 frames of start-up. There is a 5 frame gap. Characters with 6 frames jabs need to IB to be able to stuff it.

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But you're not looking at this correctly.  5C has 18 frames of block stun, yes, but watch this:

 

5C = 12 startup, 6 active frames.  If you hit on the first active frame (as in, you've got them in a block string) you've just soaked up 5 of the block stun frames.  Noel won't finish her 5C animation until frame 5 of block stun, which means now there's only 13 frames left.

 

5D = 23 start up, 4 active frames.  Remove the 13 frames left of block stun from the previous 5C, and you're left with 10 frames before 5D goes active.  Which gives a 6 frame poke 4 frames of leeway.  It is 100% possible to A mash out 5D. 

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23 frames of start-up means it goes active on the 23rd frame. And active frames being separate from recovery frames don't really matter when it comes to canceling a move but at this point, it is probably better for you to test it out for yourself.

 

Sorry for derailing the thread like this LunaKage.

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It takes a frame to register the attack, as well as block the attack.  If you cancel the attack on the first active frame, well the last active frame is the same as the first block stun frame.  So that's 1 frame.  17 frames later you will stop blocking.  It takes 23 frames to get active on Noel's 5D.  Simple math 23 - 17 = 6.  So you have 6 frames of freedom before Noel will hit you the 2nd time.

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Hmmmmm...  Never knew that.  Good to know.

 

Something still doesn't add up, though, cuz I KNOW you can poke out Noel's 5D.  It happens to me plenty often.

 

Also, is there any article on Revolver Action (Gatling, whatever) and how cancelling attacks into other attacks affect frame data?

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Toan, you can't derail a thread about Noel Gameplay discussion by discussing Noel's gameplay man lol.

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5C 5D is her safest drive blockstring starter and thus also the most predictable. Most people who know the matchup are probably going to be mashing buttons with properties specifically suited for beating it out, i.e. Izayoi 6A with mid-high guardpoint. I imagine stuff like Azrael 6A works too but I dunno, never tried.

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