[CP] Azrael vs. Ragna Match-up Discussion

[zeth07]

Discussion about the Ragna match-up goes here.

First post may be edited as important information arises. If any information seems wrong please feel free to correct it, hopefully with actual proof / examples. Anyone is free to post info as long as it is constructive and helps with the discussion of the match-up.

• Will post info later.
  

From jp Azrael Wiki

横押し→6A

サイズ→5B

GH→二段目を2Aで空かせる

6Dガード後バクステで逃げられる。

昇竜を読んだ場合6Dからきっちり決めよう

Need a proper translation.

Notable Matches:

[09/22/13] Dogura vs. Ragna = http://youtu.be/RRQF9e7UdSU?t=1h38m8s

[09/22/13] Senchou (Azrael) VS Ikamen (Ragna) = http://youtu.be/1RXe1POxh-A?t=18m8s

[09/21/13] Light Blue Azrael 13th Dan VS Kogatan (Ragna) = http://youtu.be/gMXAMwPTRvI?t=17m34s

[ThatHiroGuy]

Having extreme issues with Ragna. How the hell do you do anything against him? He gets in, he does pressure, you lose. You try to hit him, he has priority. What the hell is with him this time around? I just can't seem to ever win against him, no matter what I try doing. It's insane how much you (can't) punish anything other than him air dashing in, or using blood scythe.

[AMB Bakery]

You should probably take that to the matchup thread.

You should also try doing 6A to beat stuff that isn't a low and doing 214B if he gets too close during pressure.

[ThatHiroGuy]

So 6A has decent priority then? I'd imagine that get's beat out by most things since it's so slow, right?

[LegendaryRath]

So 6A has decent priority then? I'd imagine that get's beat out by most things since it's so slow, right?

take a while and study Azraels frame date. 6A is fully invul from frame 7-24. So ya, you could has it has decent priority lol

[Ice Cube]

Neutral:

Azrael's j.B has higher priority in air-to-air situations.

2C win in anti-air situations, especially against air dashes.

6A beats a lot of things ground-to-ground, but you need a good read before throwing one out.

Offensive:

On oki, make use of Azrael's side switches to scare Ragna from DP e.g. front dash through > jump j.B cross up, front dash through x2, etc. In corner, max range 2C will punish tech and is DP safe (probably). 6A will clash with DP (whiff 2A to start punishing) or even CH at times.

Ragna can 5B out of most of Azrael's string into 6D/3D (e.g. 5BB > 6D, 2C > 6D) even on normal block, so don't spam these by all means. Frame trap him with 6A & 3C instead.

Defensive:

Backdashes is punished by Ragna's 5B often. Don't try to backdash out of his IAD j.C oki. Think before backdashing in general.

Backdash is free if he's running at you after midscreen Hell's Fang, unless he keeps running and 2A but then that only forces blocking, and you might be able to Growler out.

Growler against blood scythe. Early backdash > 5C might FC, but backdashing late and you eat a 5B CH.

Backdash out of dead spike, easily done on reaction. Since Ragna can dash cancel it on whiff, you don't want to do this in corner. Growler absorb is an option. IAD j.B punish is a very good option, can be done on normal block, but you need a good read, whiff against dash cancel but you get out and put him into corner anyway.

Respect his j.B cross-up oki and just block. Back dashing out and you eat 5B instead.

Combo:

Delay last hit of corner TCL slightly so you won't accidentally push him out of corner.

[LordSpectreX]

6A Clash isn't too great. He can just DP again and from what I can see, the only thing that will win is Scud.

 

I don't feel like this matchup is very difficult but I find it hard to deal with Ragna's who turtle. 5B already zones Azrael out completely without including Ragna dashing to space it better. Getting through to him on the ground feels extremely difficult.

 

I feel like you have to play a strong air game and hope you can bait his godlike 6A or his intercept j.A/Airthrow attempts. Along with baiting his DP. Not hard...just kinda stressful.

[Warhound]

Wow, I really feel like Ragna can with this match up with 5B alone. It dominates the battlefield.

 

One Ragna even wiffed a j.C, landed, and threw out a 5B as soon as he landed and just stuffed my attack. Incredible.

[Fatalis]

His normals are really good, so you have to be very cautious with your approach.

 

I would recommend against Gustaf unless you're near certain it's at least going to connect, as he can 5B to hit you out of it on reaction, or just jump to make you whiff.

 

Air approach is also difficult as his 6A is a great anti-air, and let's not forget Inferno Divider.

 

It's best to play patiently, and wait for an opportunity I find rather than trying to make something happen yourself, as you'll probably get blownup for it.

 

If they're getting really DP heavy, doing the cross through on knockdown is a good way to get a hit in, as it'll mess up their DP input.

[Warhound]

[obligatory ranting and desire to commit suicide after a brutal session against a Ragna] Go ahead and delete.

Mod edit: nah, it can stay

[LordSpectreX]

My thoughts on the matchup;

 

I'm not the most experienced with this matchup. I'm more writing this for my sake; if you have any disagreements, then you're probably right. This is just based on my perspective and results will differ largely depending on the type of Ragna you play against.

 

Round Start;

Not a lot you can do here. 5C and 3C will mostly likely get blown up by everything. Best option is to jump back or backdash. Jump forward if you filling edgy.

 

Neutral;

Ragna's 5B is just an incredible normal with even more active that Azrael's. His 6A will beat most of your jump in attempts and j.C will zone you both in the air and on the ground. Those 3, along with his other normals, do a good job at turtling Azrael. Remember, there's no real reason for you to rushdown Ragna. He cannot make you block fullscreen and start pressuring you like Mu-12 or Litchi can. The best thing you can do is turtle yourself.

 

If you're lucky, the Ragna will get impatient and try to rush you down. In which case, feel free to blow him up with 5B, 2C, and other assorted normals. If the Ragna is good, then it will most likely result in a calm neutral dance a la street fighter. This is where Azrael has the advantage however. Your two main tools in this situation is j.2C and Gustaf. These are both moves and make you travel a far distance and force the opponent to block. You can't compete with Ragna, even at close and mid range. Long-Mid range is where you want to be. Stay calm and dance around until you find an opening to Gustaf in, j.2C in, or simply jump in if you've conditioned him to expect j.2C.

 

Azrael's Offense/Ragna's Defense

Ragna is one of the most annoying people to fight in regards to Azrael's offense. He sports a 5F 5A and a 9F DP. He has the ability to hit you out of almost any gap if he IBs enough. Don't go ham and don't be predictable. Don't be afraid to let pressure go by backdashing. Try things like Pink Throws to keep him on edge. You need to make him think about as many things as possible so he can't focus just on IBing and DPing you out. Cross up as much as you reasonably can.

 

Azrael 6A vs Inferno Divider

This "matchup" is fairly simple. If Ragna does nothing after clash, 6A, 2A wins, If he does DP again, 6A>6A wins. You can also OD the clash to win automatically (unless he does the same). It's mostly a 50-50 if the other Ragna knows. Don't bother with it midscreen, though feel free to try in the corner. Since the damage of 6A in the corner is worth the 50-50 since ID won't give nearly as much. Don't use it too much, unless the Ragna is spam DP happy ofc.

 

Azrael's Defense/Ragna's Offense

The tradeoff in this situation is that Ragna is one of the most capable characters at dealing with Azrael's defensive options. His blockstrings usually make Growler incredibly risky and liable to just randomly whiff. He can also punish backdashes extremely easily with 5C, 5B and dash 5A. Not only that, but he gets a safe jump setup off a lot of stuff in the corner, and j.C/j.B can catch you trying to do stuff on midscreen wakeup. Your defensive games is going to have to be pretty honest. However, the good news is that Ragna's actual pressure and mixup game is pretty bad. Just block his stuff and wait for an opportunity to Growler or backdash away.

 

Conclusion

Overall, I believe the matchup is about 6-4 in Azrael's favour. They both play this matchup very similarly to eachother. The main reason Azrael wins is just sheer raw ability. Azrael does more damage, has the ability to create more mindgames with forward dash input messups, has more Health, etc. Ragna just needs more opportunities and better reads. This means that while, yes, you have the advantage, you can't really be lazy about it. If you're predictable, then Ragna has the ability to blow you up for free. How easy to find this is going to depend less on how well the Ragna plays and how well you play.

 

Though Ragna can go YOLO and steal a tournament win with a few lucky guesses. In which case...err unfortunate, pick Koko or Valk next time? 

[Warhound]

Based off of my consistent bitching and egregious amount of salt around here, I'm far from an expert but I'll offer my thoughts to the discussion. I still don't see how this is in our favor, but then again, all I get to do is netplay, in which case Ragna, Terumi and the like are king.

 

My thoughts on the matchup;

 

I'm not the most experienced with this matchup. I'm more writing this for my sake; if you have any disagreements, then you're probably right. This is just based on my perspective and results will differ largely depending on the type of Ragna you play against.

 

Round Start;

Not a lot you can do here. 5C and 3C will mostly likely get blown up by everything. Best option is to jump back or backdash. Jump forward if you filling edgy.

 

I can SOMETIMES get away with a 6A right out of the gate. Something you can do to scare them once in awhile, but backdashing is best idea here.

 

Neutral;

Ragna's 5B is just an incredible normal with even more active that Azrael's. His 6A will beat most of your jump in attempts and j.C will zone you both in the air and on the ground. Those 3, along with his other normals, do a good job at turtling Azrael. Remember, there's no real reason for you to rushdown Ragna. He cannot make you block fullscreen and start pressuring you like Mu-12 or Litchi can. The best thing you can do is turtle yourself.

 

If you're lucky, the Ragna will get impatient and try to rush you down. In which case, feel free to blow him up with 5B, 2C, and other assorted normals. If the Ragna is good, then it will most likely result in a calm neutral dance a la street fighter. This is where Azrael has the advantage however. Your two main tools in this situation is j.2C and Gustaf. These are both moves and make you travel a far distance and force the opponent to block. You can't compete with Ragna, even at close and mid range. Long-Mid range is where you want to be. Stay calm and dance around until you find an opening to Gustaf in, j.2C in, or simply jump in if you've conditioned him to expect j.2C.

 

I will agree with mixing in j.2C in your offense, like anything else don't get predictable, but it really does mess with him. Gustav usage...I'm a little shy to use it, just because Hell's Fang beats it outright, it seems. And I think there's less advantage for him using it than our Gustav so, I would almost bait or wait for a Hell's Fang. Only problem comes when after you block it, you'll have to determine if he's a DP happy Ragna, in which case IB and punish (if netplay allows) or just backdash out and CH with 6D. But every time I try to punish Hell's Fang I just eat a DP :/

 

Azrael's Offense/Ragna's Defense

Ragna is one of the most annoying people to fight in regards to Azrael's offense. He sports a 5F 5A and a 9F DP. He has the ability to hit you out of almost any gap if he IBs enough. Don't go ham and don't be predictable. Don't be afraid to let pressure go by backdashing. Try things like Pink Throws to keep him on edge. You need to make him think about as many things as possible so he can't focus just on IBing and DPing you out. Cross up as much as you reasonably can.

 

The one Ragna that caused the most salt for me even fell prey to dash Sentinel, it was glorious.

 

Azrael 6A vs Inferno Divider

This "matchup" is fairly simple. If Ragna does nothing after clash, 6A, 2A wins, If he does DP again, 6A>6A wins. You can also OD the clash to win automatically (unless he does the same). It's mostly a 50-50 if the other Ragna knows. Don't bother with it midscreen, though feel free to try in the corner. Since the damage of 6A in the corner is worth the 50-50 since ID won't give nearly as much. Don't use it too much, unless the Ragna is spam DP happy ofc.

 

Just as a note, I've never been happy about a 6A clashing with ID, it's never turned out well for me. If you call it, just backdash and come back in with a CH.

 

Azrael's Defense/Ragna's Offense

The tradeoff in this situation is that Ragna is one of the most capable characters at dealing with Azrael's defensive options. His blockstrings usually make Growler incredibly risky and liable to just randomly whiff. He can also punish backdashes extremely easily with 5C, 5B and dash 5A. Not only that, but he gets a safe jump setup off a lot of stuff in the corner, and j.C/j.B can catch you trying to do stuff on midscreen wakeup. Your defensive games is going to have to be pretty honest. However, the good news is that Ragna's actual pressure and mixup game is pretty bad. Just block his stuff and wait for an opportunity to Growler or backdash away.

 

I noticed one thing Ragna can do, which is, for an oki, he can rush in and pressure with the edge of his 5C. To which I'm pretty sure throwing out Growler will result in a CH.

 

Conclusion

Overall, I believe the matchup is about 6-4 in Azrael's favour. They both play this matchup very similarly to eachother. The main reason Azrael wins is just sheer raw ability. Azrael does more damage, has the ability to create more mindgames with forward dash input messups, has more Health, etc. Ragna just needs more opportunities and better reads. This means that while, yes, you have the advantage, you can't really be lazy about it. If you're predictable, then Ragna has the ability to blow you up for free. How easy to find this is going to depend less on how well the Ragna plays and how well you play.

 

Though Ragna can go YOLO and steal a tournament win with a few lucky guesses. In which case...err unfortunate, pick Koko or Valk next time? 

 

Again, this matchup doesn't appear in our favor. Much like Kagura, his DP blows up some of our standard pressure options. Dash crossup is great when he isn't mashing his jab, that's probably your best way in, as (and I haven't tested it) it seems to just kind of stuff ID no problem.

 

This matchup is painful and stressful, Ragna still almost always has 50 heat to work with, in which case his pressure will seem never ending and his wake-up and other ID gimmicks give him a free out. Good luck, bitches.

[LordSpectreX]

#1; 6A will work vs 5C. It still largely a guessing game that you dont really want to play.

 

#2; Ragna is not going to be using Hell's Fang in neutral very often. It's an inferior Gustaf. Not only is Gustaf +1 as opposed to Hell's Fang's -4, but Hell's Fang is also a lot more unsafe on whiff. Hell's Fang does indeed beat it but unless your spamming Gustaf every chance you get, then he shouldn't be able to predict it. The mindgame after hell's fang is similar to Gustaf's but worse. 

 

#3; That's cool, I prefer backdash as opposed to 6A as well. Which is why I mainly recommend it for the corner. Since Ragna's typically look for you trying to do a meaty and will attempt to DP. Doing this will net you 3.8k+ in the corner.

 

#4 Yeah, he can do dash up 5C. All it really means if you have to neutral tech. Again, Ragna's pressure forces you to be honest, but it's not actually very good. Just neutral tech and block. That's really all there is.

 

It is a rather stressful matchup, though tbh, I find every matchup except for like...Bullet to be pretty stressful due to how heavily Azrael relies on mindgames. However, you can't act the Ragna player like a robot who somehow reacts to everything. You always need to use all your options to make him as scared as possible. Sometimes that involves just doing something simple like 2A>Block. If you make yourself predictable, even slightly, then he will just ID for free. Remember, while it's easy for him to escape our pressure, it's easy to escape his too, Ragna's pressure is very unstable. You just have to be attentive. 

 

Here's some casual games against my local Ragna. It's just house casuals so it's not the most intense play ever.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZYSI1bDT3E&t=26m20s

 

You can see how for the first few games, I was being overly cautious and actually got blown up for it by constantly punishing my backdashes. 5A however would punish him to trying to do so. That's what this matchup is, it's just a big RNG battle. Azrael holds a better hand due to higher damage and higher HP, but Ragna is still going to mess you up if you make bad choices. 

[Warhound]

Maybe I just need to go back and watch my matches in slow mo, because this match up blows me up on the regular. I fought a turtling Ragna the other day, and it was a nightmare. 

 

Oh also, fight every urge to not throw out 6D after a blocked 2C, a lot of Ragna's train themselves to throw out 5B after a 2C, because they know that this will happen exactly. It's getting me blown up constantly.

[zankoku]

You can occasionally risk doing a frame-trap with 3C after 2C if you're noting a tendency to mash non-Inferno Divider after blocked 2C.

 

2C itself is -3 and both 6D and 3D leave rather large gaps to press buttons on, though, along with being air-blockable without the need of barrier, so I would just advise against using 2C in pressure in general.

[Warhound]

Sometimes it's by reflex, like I think it may catch them on jump out or something. But if I do throw it out in neutral or something, it's usually at a distance that takes a bit of distance to cover before getting a clean CH first.

[Zyed]

I used to main Ragna lol

 

Azrael's favor slightly (but only a little bit) because of Ragnas 5B that is hard to play around in neutral. That attack is pretty fucking homo and so bullshit easy to get hit by its like it doesn't even matter if Ragna is 10 miles away from u its like somehow the kick still fucking hits u. 5C as well the hitbox of that slice is magical i tell ya

 

Random blood scythes get fucked by J.B. But don't read too much because the Ragna will try to read you with 6A which can and "will" slap you out of the air and into corner. But what's ironic about this is that you can easily anti air his ass too. 

 

Azrael and corner = dead its so hard to get out once Ragna throws you in because 5D covers literally the whole fucking area specially when you jump and if you're hit, say good bye to a fraction of your health. Good Ragnas throw out a 5D often during corner pressure. You just cannot jump out of that you have to be very unpredictable about your corner escape. 

 

Knowing your opponent's spacing with Ragna is also helpful so u can detect if hes trying to bait you to growler or back dash while in corner pressure. 

 

I find that Ragna is easier to block than characters like Jin however because Ragna has more predictable block strings and u can tell when he's about to gauntlet hades or 6B. The only thing that mixes up such a linear string is if he ends it with 2D and THAT is kinda easy to get hit by cuz you're always thinking "overhead" and then he slams that fucking sword down on ur feet at the end and RC's it and you're like omg fuck you. If you block it tho chances are it will be IB'd and u can escape for free i think

 

I swear sometimes Azrael only needs one combo and two guesses and the round is over. When u bait ragna he is so dead lmao only 10k health and most likely in a situation with a red weakpoint in the corner, if he dares to inferno divider and whiffs with no burst hes taking 6k and hes done cuz 3D punish. You can also cross up the DP input and Ragna's C/D moves have piss start up so will most likely get Counter hit by 5A. Inferno divider is a great DP but will cost the ragna the whole game once you treat him like hes moby fucking dick. 

[prototype047]

That summary was entertaining and informative.