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zeth07

[CP] Azrael vs. Tager Match-up Discussion

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Discussion about the Tager match-up goes here.

Anyone is free to post info as long as it is constructive and helps with the discussion of the match-up.

From jp Azrael Wiki / jbbs: Huge thanks to hakimiru for the major translation work!

Match start -

Backstep is a reliable opener, I think. 5C is tempting but it's a guaranteed ch if they forward jump, so it's better to get some distance first and retreat to the max range of 5C.

From here, Tager will slowly but steadily approach with walking and forward JC. If you see forward JC, use 2C, since it's sort of hard to AA with 5A like you can for other characters. 2C can be hit-confirmed into 6D/3D, etc. Going too far in is very dangerous. It should be fine though, since it's not too hard to confirm off of a Tager air-hit.

Once you've applied a weak point, be sure to properly meaty 5A on their emergency techs. If you're on-point with beating out their backsteps and A Drivers and can force them to block, a lot more options open up.

If they create some distance with backroll, etc, there's no need to overextend yourself to chase.

Going in with low airdash JB, etc, will lead to you getting AAed with 2A, so it's best to just zone and initiate with 5C.

If they manage to get you to block a 6C, it becomes a yomi match from there.

Their main options are pretty much just A Driver or GETB. Collider can probably be beaten out with a rising JA, but backstep is the option with the least risk.

Tager's moves generally have long recovery times, so I think it's best to bait his actions and punish with 5C.

If you see them do 6A or 2D/5D etc, you can backstep it for an easy 5C>Gustaf>rc>3C etc. punish.

Defending -

If you've made some sort of mistake and Tager is on the offensive, 5C doesn't chain into anything seamlessly, so you can backstep for free if you block one.

When magnetized, Tagers options after 5C are mainly 2D, 5D, and 6A.

Blocking 2D puts you in a heavily disadvantageous situation, so you'll want to dodge it with backstep. They're in crouching state on whiff, allowing you to go into full combo with 5B>3C>Dump>~

If you block a 5D, they're likely to do B Sledge, or A Sledge if you're close.

IBing the first hit guarantees you a ch to Hammer with 5A, so aim for that.

They can continue their blockstring with Sledge>rc>5B if they have meter, so be sure to check.

Getting hit with Gadget Finger -

Their only punish for our backstep is Driver, so we can get away after a Gadget easier than most.

Driver is a high-risk move due to how open it leaves them on whiff, so it's not something they'll throw out that often. Running away with backstep is probably the main option you'll be using.

Pressing up right after the backstep gives you a free combo if their throw comes out late, so that might be best.

After blocking a Wheel -

On ground block: CA

On air block: jump cancel. If you're out of air options, land>Growler

Things get pretty messy if you end up blocking a 6A or 2D, so be sure to counter them with backstep!

Sorry for the length.

Notable Matches:

(these are only recent matches, not necessarily notable)

[10/06/13] Tager vs. dinbra = http://youtu.be/98nyWmkEWDY?t=5m44s

[10/04/13] Mato vs. Tager = http://youtu.be/o4MVH4Wm3FA?t=11m7s

[09/14/13] Tahichi (Azrael) VS Tager = http://youtu.be/CCy9-_vBLL4?t=8m48s

[08/18/13] Default Azrael vs. Tager = http://youtu.be/f04PUSVbZmE?t=35m33s

[08/18/13] Tager vs. 11th Dan Kamina Azrael = http://youtu.be/txksQ8f8apc?t=2m48s

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A lot of my opinions are already reflected in the original post, but here's what I've learned from my sets with him so far...

Backdash is godlike in this matchup. There's almost NOTHING tager can do about it. If he gets in with 2D, ends a combo with gadget finger, or is pressuring you, backdash will get you out. After gadget finger, backdash gets out of 5A, 5C, throw, 360, 720, atomic collider, and the list goes on. Not to say it's the answer to everything, but almost everything. Tager can use 5D to beat it but if you think about it, it's preferable to getting hit by a lot of things.

When pressuring Tager, keep in mind the gaps in our pressure. Make use of jump cancels and backdashes to punish tagers for churning 360A or 720. Once he respects you, you'll get a free pass to do normal mixup with drives, frame traps, crossups, etc.

In neutral make use of gustaf to get in and counter hit his slow normals. Backdash 2D, 5D and 6A for a free punish. I haven't looked into optimal punishes yet, I'll post again with those sometime.

---

Silly stuff...

Backdash makes spark bolt wiff lol. I don't really think it's easily reactable, but often it will happen in neutral just on accident for me.

After gadget finger, some Tagers will use magna-tech-wheel. I guess to punish possible DPs, mashing, or to get the OMC mixup with 100 heat. If you backdash on wakeup and notice magna-tech-wheel, you can PATRIOT APOCALYPSE right through it. I'm assuming you could do the same for 720, but the situation never presented itself.

That's all that comes to mind right now.

edit: I think this matchup's in our favor. Every round seems to almost exclusively take place with Tager in the corner.

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Scud I know for a fact will go through 720 even if you initiate it first and they attempt to punish with 720, not 100% sure on this but I did get away with it playing a Tager last night.

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3C at neutral seems like a good way to get on the offensive during this matchup. It seems like if he blocks it there isn't really anything he can do after and it beats out 5D so if Tager likes to mash it it's a good way to punish him for it. Only thing I've noticed is that he can 720 you if you try to use it within his range.

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This matchup is like Az vs. Kagura, shitty for both characters.

From matches that I watch from Nico and YT I see a lot of Tagers just charging when they're at fullscreen distance from Az. His Voltec Charge has GP against all but unblockables/lows/throws, but after GP ends it's got 23 recovery. If you see Tager charging a lot (if you have meter) you could pretty easily OD BHS > 22C > combo punish them. Better yet if they have at least one weakpoint and they're close to corner, then you can just go haywire. (That is, if VC actually puts him into CH state.)

I rarely get to fight against Tagers so I can't say for sure...

Edit: it does put him in CH state++

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So like, how do you beat air throw tech>360?

 

I got caught by it the other day a few times because I legit have no idea how to get past that due to lack of matchup experience and was too scared to mash J.A over nothing. Is that really what I'm suppose to do? J.B\J.C instead maybe? Something I can press after it and have good chances to beat it? I know it sounds scrubby to ask this, but like I said I don't fight enough Tagers to know what I'm really suppose to do at moments like those.

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For most character's you generally mash j.A to beat it cause that's their quickest horizontal normal. But since Azrael doesn't follow that, rule, mashing j.A won't work. j.B and j.C should work fine and net you a combo. From what I tested anyway. You can also use Divekick if you're feeling sly.

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Kinda gimmicky, but Azrael's 5D actually has airborne frames somewhere in the middle of it, if you're expecting a 360A/B, you can actually go through it if you time it right for a CH combo to the wall. The issue is that you do it too early or too late you'll still get caught by it(also I haven't thoroughly tested what happens if he holds it), so it's generally much safer to just jump, but it's there. Come to think of it, it should work on 720 too. However, you might as well just 6C or even Sentinel Dump instead, or as mentioned earlier, just jump and punish accordingly.

Also if you're against a Tager that's rather Voltic Hammer happy after Sledges, you can Sentinel Dump after blocking both A and B Sledge(you don't even have to IB though you have to IB on B Sledge) and you'll get a CH combo here too. Pretty sure a lot of other things beat it though if he doesn't Hammer immediately.

And yeah, you can beat air throw tech>360C with j.C or j.B as LordSpectreX mentioned.

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^5D beats grabs:

 

That's pretty interesting but I find 3C is better as it's easier to time right. Def beats all grabs (maybe A sledge too) plus if it's blocked you can RC > j.A it for what, 7 frame overhead after a low.

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Yeah, definitely not the most practical thing, but pretty interesting nevertheless. That makes me wonder whether you can just throw 5Ds out in other match-ups when you expect throws to come in.

3C certainly does work pretty good though sometimes I get grabbed out of it still during its start up.

 

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^5D beats grabs:

 

I tried it out with 360A, you get CH even if Tager holds A. Still on wakeups it's tricky 'cause if Tager decides to backdash before grabbing you're in trouble.

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Holding 360A doesn't extend Tager's invulnerability, merely the active frames of the throw.

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Man I hate fighting this piece of ass shit, all he has to do is mash grab against me, and auto win. I know we have some major advantages, but, I fucking hate fighting Tager.

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Space yourself and poke with 5C.

 

If you see him try to sledge, you can get off a CH Gustaf and get a combo off that.

 

Don't try to meaty him, you'll probably end up getting grabbed.

 

You can't just go to town on him like many other characters, as if you're playing a good Tager, he'll know where the holes are, and you can be sure he'll grab you at those times.

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Doesn't sledge usually have super armor? I thought Gustav would lose to that.

 

I know mixing in moves like 5D and 6C are good for stuffing grabs at least.

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Yeah if you're magnetized and Tager is 6A'ing you in, 3C him. Sometimes when I'm feelin ballsy I 3D his 6A. Too bad CH 3D>6A doesn't work on Tager though.

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It's a shame 3D > 6A doesn't work but you can still do 3D (CH) > 2C > 3D > 6A > 5C > TCL > either 5B > aerial or 669 j.AC > j.D, which nets you roughly 5k. Or just go TC > Valiant to ensure getting a weakpoint.

Tager's immune to TCL > 3D ender too so, yeah, sucky.

 

Edit: @Lucalibur: *pats on the shoulder* we think alike bro

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Yeah if you're magnetized and Tager is 6A'ing you in, 3C him. Sometimes when I'm feelin ballsy I 3D his 6A. Too bad CH 3D>6A doesn't work on Tager though.

You can still get 5K+ anywhere on the screen against Tager off a 3D CH, thankfully. If too far from the corner then you can get over 5K by doing 3D CH>2C>3D(Heavily delayed)>6A>forward walk 5C\2B(2B is much easier, 5C leads into more damage)>TCL>Dash 5A\IAD J.A>air combo ender

 

Close to the corner you change dash 5A for 5B into air stuff, adding roughly 200 damage. Ironically, you get the least damage if directly in the corner, as you can only go into 5B after 6A which means you miss out on the extra damage 5C or 2B gives. Still over 5K though. Feel free to come up with better combos though since my combo knowledge is limited due to me not playing a lot lately.

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God, watching pros fight him is fucking depressing. I think I saw one clean win, and a few tricks that can work from time to time.

 

I saw one cool thing where if you get magnetzied and you read his 5D, I saw him just Valiant right through that shit. I wouldn't call it a reliable solution by any means, but it was a good read, and beat it pretty clean.

 

EDIT: So I tested this a bit more in a fight, granted I wasn't fighting any great Tagers or anything, but, when you're magnetized, you can expect certain things from Tagers. Among them, from outside of his grabs' range you might be able to call a 5D or sledge, and in that instance Valiant will super armor clean through a lot of his attacks.

 

I'm not a huge advocate of reckless Valiant-ing, but in this case it is certainly something to consider, and not do it too often, obviously.

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This match up 6-4 Azrael

Tager wants to magnetize you and has a number of ways to do it. However your mobility and jump canceled buttons leaves a lot of them desperate for something. The only way Tager should ever win a round against you is if you're magnetized mode. Guess what, just in case he does, just dont jump until your magnetism is gone, then Tager has to do it all over again. This is because his collider will pull you towards him if you jump and it's quite fast too. Very difficult for Tager to put an agile azrael in magnetism, except with Iron fist. That special is ridiculous and can catch you in the air, fullscreen. Also, counter hit iron fists = tons of damage without burst, be wary. You should definitely save bursts for cases like these. You get iron fisted again, you're most likely going to lose the round.

5C into Gustaf and 6C oh and be sure that tager is blocking the 5C and not super armoring it. Do not ever leave this formula, big chance you will be punished.

5b and 5a both jump cancel-able. Not a single reason Tager should ever grab you unless you time your meaties wrong. Also since he has a big hurtbox, at least 70% of your box jump Bs will confirm more easily than on other characters. 
As soon as Tager is in the corner J.a. All day. If well timed, Tager will eat CH for wake up anti air. You have to make the player know for sure hes not getting out of that corner without 50 meter tech wheel and with shit tons of Azrael health you can afford to eat one per round.

If he manages to catch you with Spark bolt which is also 60% of the time useless against you cuz of growler, then you may be losing without burst. Gadget finger situations are "TERRIBLE" for azrael and is go to route for the round loss. 360 Throws after punish the fuck out of your back dash. Also, frame advantage. Be very wary and commit to one of 3 decisions, 5a, Up back barrier, or block the next string, THEN back step.

 

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