[CP] Tsubaki vs Makoto

[Kiba]

Discuss the Makoto matchup here!

[Monarch]

22B at round start isn't recommended. Most Makoto's I've played do 3C at round start, which has head/body invulnerability. Usually I start the round with 3C, because of they use 3C I can score a nice FC combo to the corner. Other than that..

- Use 421A/j.236A with caution, you can get caught in the start up animation by Lightning Arrow, which is FC on hit.

- Watch out for Asteroid Vision resets, a lot of players like to do a few blockstrings, asteroid vision (A) behind you and go for a grab.

- Makoto's DD "Big Bang Smash" may not be a great reversal, but it's pretty good at tagging you from across the screen if you're charging in neutral; so be careful where you charge.

- Makoto's Astral has a lot of range, and many inv frames. So if she has the conditions filled, you may want to expect a YOLO astral coming your way.

- If a Makoto uses 236A>D in neutral, you can 421D>236D through it for free.

[Airk]

Yeah, weirdly, 3C at round start works okay in this matchup. It also beats parry, if you run into some nutjob who decides they want to parry at round start (don't laugh, I've seen it.)

[chzchan]

Is it a good idea to use projectiles in this matchup?

[Kiba]

Yes, although as a general note it's a good idea to use the projectile in most matchups. Covers your approach, makes players move in ways which you can take advantage of (by jumping you can AA/grab) etc.

 

I think it's even more effective against Makoto because there isn't much she can do about it and she has to make a choice between jumping and evading or blocking. She can counter with her own projectile but generally I don't think that's a good idea. Could leave her open for your IAD j.C.

[Airk]

Yeah, due to the way it works, Break Shot just takes too long to be a useful way to cancel an opponent's projectile.

 

Makoto doesn't really have good answers to projectiles; Theoretically she can avoid them with 3C (even though it's not technically projectile invulnerable, I think it's low enough to go under them) but you really shouldn't be doing projectiles at a range where she can do that anyway, and 3C has tons of startup, so assuming you've recovered you can just 2A/2B her out of it, and I think Big Bang Smash is too slow to punish projectiles fullscreen - though it might work against j.236A since you're in recovery until landing, so you might want to be a little careful of that one once she has 50 meter.

[chzchan]

I've been running into a few Makotos lately and I just have lost more often by using my projectile than not. I think I am just not using them correctly or not judging distance correctly or something. Makoto is tied for fastest run speed with Bang so it always seems like she can just navigate around things pretty easily.

 

I also have trouble dealing with people who jump over 421A projectile if they are too far away. If I go for air grab I get smacked every single time and I don't know which buttons to use on people who are already in the air. It always seems like they are just a bit too far away if I try to go after them after letting out a projectile and if they advance towards me I just end up blocking. I guess this isn't limited to Makoto. That's just me, though.

 

I feel like I need to figure out how to generally use the projectile against certain characters. Like where/when I should be using it against each character because I just throw it out to attempt to cover me and if my opponent airdashes into it or just hangs back and defends because they don't feel like going in, I feel like it is effective. If someone doesn't let the projectile stop them in their tracks and finds ways around them I am super screwed because they really are not that great at covering Tsubaki and both can be punished super easy.

[Airk]

Have you tried just advancing behind your projectile and using 2C against people who jump over it?

[chzchan]

I guess that works on Makoto unless they bait it, but against Jin, Ragna, anyone with a great hitbox, 2C doesn't do anything to deny them jumping in.

[Airk]

I guess that works on Makoto unless they bait it, but against Jin, Ragna, anyone with a great hitbox, 2C doesn't do anything to deny them jumping in.

 

Nonsense. Even now, 2C can beat all of those characters jump ins if you space it correctly. Which is easier if you've got a fireball dictating where they have to be.

 

The places this becomes problematic are when you are up against characters with strong ways to change their direction in midair.  Makoto CAN change direction in the air, but Furry Tail doesn't really get her much, so it's not a big concern.

[chzchan]

Yeah I should have listed Tao, Bang, and Hazama as characters that can just hop around the screen.

There's also Terumi's j.D as well, though that goes in it's own special category because it eats projectiles.

[chzchan]

Holy shit what do you do now?

 

Makoto has two more defensive options that are very difficult to punish as Tsubaki now. You just can't maintain oki on her anymore also frame trapping her is severely difficult now.

[Airk]

Two MORE defensive options?

[Daedron]

Parry is not active from frame 1 anymore, her DP can still be low profiled quite easily. I don't understand either. 

[chzchan]

I was just having a hard time with Omni 236Ding out of my pressure and on wakeup. I guess it was just me not timing meaties correctly, but if you ever try to go into 6B you will get 236D fatal countered out of your pressure.

 

Her 236D is godlike. It is the one that moves her backward and out and then back in. According to Omni, it has invuln from frame 5 which makes it a very safe way out of Tsubaki's pressure if they IB. I don't know how the hell to punish it yet, so I was having a really hard time.

 

 

Two MORE defensive options?

 

I guess I should have said one new defensive option and one that was made more reliable and easier to input. Just me being a scrub and complaining about something new I have yet to figure out how to deal with.

[Airk]

Given that it's 22 frames of startup and -16 on block, treating it like a DP will work just fine.  Alternatively, you can hard callout her hard callout with 3C (Her invuln frames don't last anywhere near to the end of her startup, and 3C has so many active frames there's no timing involved.)  Also, 5CC> 6B should be safe against it.

 

I think you were probably just being predictable with your pressure.

[chzchan]

Resetting pressure and frame trapping is hard though.

 

5CC > 6B is not safe if they IB 5CC which is super easy to do. Also, the Level 3 version is only -12 on block. You can punish it, but it is definitely harder to punish than her DP. I think her parry is also around the same negative frame advantage, but you just have to make it whiff.

 

I'll try doing 3C more and treat her like Noel now. I'll do some more experiments and see what I can come up with. Pressuring her is so much scarier now.

[Airk]

Charge cancel.  Charge Cancel > 2A is probably  even fast enough after most normals that you'll be able to block even if 2A whiffs.

 

Did you test to get that -12? Because that's a LOT better than it was in CP1.1; But even if it is, she should easily be within range for 5C.

 

Also, there's no reason it should be 'easy' to IB 5CC since you can delay it.

[chzchan]

Yeah I did the jump test frame by frame. Guess I'll just try to block it. It's a good thing that it doesn't push you back a ridiculous distance.