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Psykotik

[CP] Carl vs Kagura

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Discuss the Kagura matchup here

Random notes:

- Vivace should theoretically beat most of Kagura's drive moves

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Discuss the Kagura matchup here

Random notes:

- Vivace should theoretically beat most of Kagura's drive moves

"So.... this guy has more options than Noel could ever wish for on his Drives. Goodlike anti-air hits way higher than Litchi's 4B... Works more like Izayoi's C~DP but goes much higher. I was hit out off Dash allegreto, no clash, no trade, just me getting hit. Odd because I was literally rubbing up against this niggas balls and he didnt get touched. Safe to say its on Azreals anti-air level, not sure of its properties on block. Hoping with all my might he cannot gatting into his drive.

Fullscreen dash that has auto-guard, no weak points, that can cancel into more drive mixup. His crossup ability rivals that of our own, making blocking a tad bit difficult. Because of how active his moves are and the large hitboxes, using Ada anywhere near him will only cost her health, and if your not carefully yours along with it. Easy hitconfirms from great distances into a decent 2.6k from any C attack. Along with a very stupid hitbox and a DP that can be mashed regardless distance because its safe as hell. Looking like Ryu's Light DP. (Even crossups wont work, his DP is a charge attack. 28~C or D idk)

Has a very good projectile with very little charge, cannot punish the charge with 46D on reaction. Trying to Yomi him fullscreen with Ada will also be impossible since 3hits is half of her HP and while Ada is at max distance for a 46D to connect Carl is still in danger of being hit because of Kagura's reach. Must have 1 backdash distance or more in order to cause his attacks to whiff. But at that point even if Ada does get a CH, confirming into a combo is impossible. Id have to say that this is a way harder matchup than Litchi or Mu-12. He cannot be approched and letting him take the offensive is even more dangerous than staying at neutral. Trying to Anti-air him will also get you hit, his jc has a better hitbox that Ragna's jc & Haku's j2c combind. Not only that, but his jc causes stagger ON A NONE CH!!!!!!! If your not paying attention to when you get hit so that you can tech he gets a free 2.6k (Possibly more) and if you do get hit at tech he has the option of Jc>Air drive>Command grab.. So you you get hit by the jc be carefull, because his command grab does 2k raw. Unsure if it can be combo'd after, praying it cannot. This guy is an all around complete character, as far as I can see he has no flaws. IB'ing and jumping out is your only option. Trying to block his mixup is rather dangerous.

Overall, Kagura has safe mixup a chargeable DP, incredible reach, amazing anti-air, fullscreen pokes>into mixup, a dumb hitbox to make confirming even harder, great damage, wonderful oki, command grab, crossups and a very safe DP."

~Shiro

PS: One can only pray he gets nerfed.

[Edit] Did I forget to mention he can fly!?

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Pretty much everything Akira said. It's really hard to play neutral against this guy.

I think a preemptive j.A might be helpful as an anti-air if we can predict him coming in.

Other random things: His 6D~C charges right through our Gear super. So you can't hide behind that to stall for time, lol.

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Alright, so I got to play some games with Omnisscythe and other good Kagura players and I managed to hold my own against them. This matchup doesn't feel as bad as I thought.

Some things I took away from those matches:

- Akira pointed out a lot of things that make this matchup look really dumb on paper (high damage, big normals, flashkick, etc) and he's right in that Kagura is definitely threatening thanks to those. However, there's one flaw Kagura has that balances out these strengths and prevents him from abusing them as easily as he'd like: his poor mobility. This restricts his neutral gameplan to be somewhat defensive.

- In neutral, it seems that hovering right outside Kagura's 5C range is the sweet spot, He can't do much here; 5C and 2C whiff, if he tries to approach in the air, he'll eat a Brio and if he tries to bulldog his way in with 6D~A/C, Carl can punish it with cantabile or by simply jumping and coming down on them with j.C (second option only works if Kagura's drives whiffed/didn't hit Ada).

- Tenerezza is very useful in this matchup. Anytime Kagura's in 5C range w/the doll, he can be caught by it. If Kagura's poking around with 5C or 2C, you can "punish" the whiff with Tenerezza. It may not actually hit but they'll be forced to block and if Carl's in the neutral range I mentioned, Carl can even get in on him to start pressure provided that he can do so quick enough so that there's no gaps for Kagura to flash kick through

- Be mindful of doll usage. Although Ada can eat projectiles w/near impunity, Kagura's individual strikes deal massive amounts of damage to her, so much that he can kill her off from starting health values that you didn't think was possible.

- I found that crossup mixups and resets are much riskier in this matchup as Kagura's flashkick blows them up for free. Better to limit usage of j.2C crossups in this match.

- When you're mixing up Kagura, throw out an overhead every now and then to make him lose his flashkick charge (make sure the string's tight though).

- With that said, I did some kind of crossup setup and somehow made the flashkick whiff (!?). I'll have to look at the replays again to see what I did.

- I've been told that Kagura's mixups aren't actually that safe. FWIW, they don't feel too safe to me either considering how I managed to mash out a few times.

- You can rhythm block his crossup and fake crossup; the latter's faster by 9 frames

- Kagura's flashkick is safe on air block. If you're in the air and in range, he has no reason not to do it. Keep this in mind when running pressure/mixup/oki on him.

I still need to do more research on this matchup but I think that it's definitely winnable.

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Psykotic... your forgetting his ability to stance dance... Kagura has no points in his strings that you (Carl) can actually mash. If you are at 5a distance it is a possibility, but for the most part there are only a few moves you can block to escape. Please keep in minds I do not know his inputs for his attacks so I will be giving descriptions. Kagura on air approach can evade Brio fairly easy because of his stance dance, continuing to change stances back to back in the air to halt his falling momentum, into a sort of Dive stance that will evade Brio that he can cancel into any attack, usually his fullscreen auto guard dash/stab attack.. From that attack, depending on if it hits Ada or not, If you are trying to brio then she absolutely got hit, he can cancel into other moves. I am not sure how many options he has, but I do know that there are two that are completely mash safe; one option is his autoguard attack that is a fatal where he lifts his sword and kind of hits you with the flat part like its a shield, the other option is where he slides along the ground, which if blocked you can escape, and performs a two hit low striking attack. Both options will eat any form of mash, while the slide also stops jumpouts but has no combo or pressure capabilities.

But apart from that, most of his strings are usually on going, he only stops when the player choose to be risky. Because Kagura has so many options for moves while pressuring some players forget/neglect some. Im not sure what Omni or the other people were doing but aside from IB'ing specific attacks then jumping out you cannot escape his pressure by mashing. Unless Carl somehow got inferno divider.

:gonk: One can only wish at this point.

Point being

-You cant mash because you will more than likely trade... always and forever not in carls favor.

-If Kagura is in the air he should always be going into his dive stance which has 3 diretions he can fall 1,2 & 3 into more overpowered mash. #IHateThisGuy

-Try to use ada to punish him and he blocks, he can turn around and punish ada =/ So I wouldnt advise that. Like Psykotic said, he will Merk our heavy handed gorilla :gonk: ADA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Try to do any ariel approach and he will mash DP as if his life depended on it. Be advised, if you block his DP in the air, he can just mash it again :vbang:

-Also outside of his 5c range we ave no normals that can hit him O.o so I dont understand what purpose that does. Would you mind clarifying???

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Psykotic... your forgetting his ability to stance dance... Kagura has no points in his strings that you (Carl) can actually mash.

No, I did not neglect Kagura being able to chain his drives. The thing is, if Kagura wants to go for 6DA, 6DB or his overhead for his drive mixup, you can mash out of it no matter where he chains it from, which is why I don't consider it a safe mixup since he has to burden that risk if he wants go for it. With that said, he does have options for frame traps that are high reward so choosing to try to block him is also a respectable plan.

If you want more details on Kagura's safe/unsafe drive strings, a Kagura player put up results of his extensive testing on a google drive document.

Kagura on air approach can evade Brio fairly easy because of his stance dance

Stance fast-fall isn't fast enough to used reliably for that. The earliest he can cancel his air stance is around 16 frames. He's also going to be in the air for longer than that if he's even in a situation where he can be hit by Brio. Good Brio usage should discourage him from being around there in the first place.

Because Kagura has so many options for moves while pressuring some players forget/neglect some.

You're not really wrong but one thing to note is that Kagura can only chain 1 attack per stance for a total of 3 attacks (that is, he can't use 6DA after 6DB or whatever). If you block one drive attack, this means his total number of options is reduced to 5-6 for his next attack depding on the stance used. With this in mind, it's a bit easier to defend his strings.

-You cant mash because you will more than likely trade... always and forever not in carls favor.

-If Kagura is in the air he should always be going into his dive stance which has 3 diretions he can fall 1,2 & 3 into more overpowered mash. #IHateThisGuy

-Try to use ada to punish him and he blocks, he can turn around and punish ada =/ So I wouldnt advise that. Like Psykotic said, he will Merk our heavy handed gorilla :gonk: ADA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Try to do any ariel approach and he will mash DP as if his life depended on it. Be advised, if you block his DP in the air, he can just mash it again :vbang:

-Also outside of his 5c range we ave no normals that can hit him O.o so I dont understand what purpose that does. Would you mind clarifying???

The first bolded is part of why I suggested the second. If Carl is just out of 5C range with Ada between them, Kagura can't hit him without overcommitting into a drive move and he's close enough to move in quickly as Ada makes Kagura block to start pressure. Otherwise, I completely agree with you on solo Ada usage being very risky since Kagura can hit back so hard.

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One nice thing is that because Kagura's drive moves lose their cancel frames on wiff, if you just vivace past somethin like his thrust... 6DB? No clue, cant remember his stuff. A lot of his drive moves have noticable recovery, and making them wiff is how I play against him as Relius. Obviously Ley is a bit better in this as you don't move away from him and it avoids lows, Vivace can still do the same against a lot of his moves. This is just theory of mine and I tried Carl on pad today just to have it rip my fingers apart xD; just my input.

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No, I did not neglect Kagura being able to chain his drives. The thing is, if Kagura wants to go for 6DA, 6DB or his overhead for his drive mixup, you can mash out of it no matter where he chains it from, which is why I don't consider it a safe mixup since he has to burden that risk if he wants go for it. With that said, he does have options for frame traps that are high reward so choosing to try to block him is also a respectable plan.

If you want more details on Kagura's safe/unsafe drive strings, a Kagura player put up results of his extensive testing on a google drive document.

Stance fast-fall isn't fast enough to used reliably for that. The earliest he can cancel his air stance is around 16 frames. He's also going to be in the air for longer than that if he's even in a situation where he can be hit by Brio. Good Brio usage should discourage him from being around there in the first place.

You're not really wrong but one thing to note is that Kagura can only chain 1 attack per stance for a total of 3 attacks (that is, he can't use 6DA after 6DB or whatever). If you block one drive attack, this means his total number of options is reduced to 5-6 for his next attack depding on the stance used. With this in mind, it's a bit easier to defend his strings.

:arg: WHY AM I JUST NOW HEARING OF ALL OF THIS!!!!!

I THOUGHT THIS STUPID FOOL COULD JUST KEEP GOING :v:

The rage in my heart is strong... So strong.

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:arg: WHY AM I JUST NOW HEARING OF ALL OF THIS!!!!!

I THOUGHT THIS STUPID FOOL COULD JUST KEEP GOING :v:

The rage in my heart is strong... So strong.

I should probably note that Kagura can dash cancel his 5DA to try to reset his string. He's around -3 on regular block if he does this though so you can mash out of that if he tries it.

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I should probably note that Kagura can dash cancel his 5DA to try to reset his string. He's around -3 on regular block if he does this though so you can mash out of that if he tries it.

This I did know.. but thanks.

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Kagura's drives are outrageously unsafe on block, both on startup and afterwards. 5dA 66 is his only remotely safe drive and you can actually punish it on ib with any 5 or 6 frame jab. Basically the only thing stopping you from mashing out of pressure once you see him go into stance is that 5dA is mid/high super armor while 2dA goes over lows and throws. If you see him use either his mid or low stance and he tries to do another drive, it's a free punish.

The one thing you want to watch for is his frametrap with A orb or flash kick, but those are pretty gimmicky and easily punished.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

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essentially this is a match up where Carl shouldn't be too defensive? At the same time his Haku range is ridiculous so I'm not understanding this "5C range" usually it's easier if I run away until he whiffs something because Ada is dead if I try to approach

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I'm actually wrong about the 5C range part, dunno why that sounded right in my head but one forward IAD/two-thirds screen distance seems closer to the ideal range with Ada around the 5C range.

I also sorely underestimated flashkick not just in defense but neutral as well. Looks like I need to study this one a lot more than I thought.

While I'm at it, fuck that flashkick

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I find that CON Volante works well in this MU.

Mainly because there's usually some short, unjabbable breaks in block strings that you can volante during but as soon as he enters stances, he's fairly committed.

I played against Kagura a bit recently but the player wasn't so great...

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any newfound wisdom in this matchup? i find it to be quite difficult. i noticed IAD j.2C beats one of his anti-airs (2C?) but I suck at that. any good spots to instant block and punish? I'm at a loss

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Kagura doesn't really have any good anti-air normals aside from maybe 5A, and even that one's a bit iffy. His best AA option is B flash kick.

It's actually really hard for Kagura to catch Carl in the matchup as his mobility isn't that good and his normals don't help him a ton since the far-reaching ones are really slow. Against a Kagura who's running at you, you can stop him with doll moves or even do a well-spaced airdash at him since his AA normals are weak. If Kagura tries to approach by IADing, you can AA him with Brio or 6A. Carl's air normals fight Kagura's air normals pretty well so you could even try something like rising j.A against Kaguras trying to change up their IAD spacing. If Kagura hangs back and pokes at the doll, you can try baiting the poke by turning on the doll and then turning it off. If Kagura whiffs a C normal trying to poke it, you can whiff punish it by doing IAD j.B/C. 

With regards to his drive strings, there are a few things to note:

- Anything into 2DA (overhead) is not tight and can be jumped out of or vivace'd

- There's around a 7 frame difference between 6DA and 6DB. You can rhythm block the crossup if you see the startup since the crossup is around 7f slower.

- His forward dash cancelled 5DA is safe but minus on block, so you can mash 5A if he ends his string in that. To prevent the opponent getting pressure, some Kaguras will do 5DA > backdash cancel, which is even more minus on block but is out of 5A range. If they try to hit buttons after 5DA > backdash, Carl can get a CH 6B punish after 5DA backdash.

The biggest thing to remember on offense is that since Kagura's flashkick is a charge move, if you make him stand block, he loses his flashkick charge and can't flashkick for another while. Take advantage of Carl's many different tight/semi-tight strings into overheads to make Kagura stand and keep him from flashkicking.

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Thanks so much! I'll look into his movelist and try fighting some Kaguras tonight.

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