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[Xrd] I-No Gameplay Discussion

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Uh, where are you getting the range values?  Also, are there range values for HPB?  Prior to this, most air command throws were just ground-to-air or air-to-air unblockable.  If we have range values, that might mean they're throws, which would mean we could throw bursts with I-No's command throw.  That's huge considering we can cancel into it from ground normals, including those that can't be jump canceled.  The opponent's burst would almost never be safe.

 

I noticed that they're doing attack levels on a scale of 0-4 instead of 1-5.

 

So yeah, there's a lot of changes:

 

 

6P is now 1-11 above the knee, instead of having 1-4 above the waist, then 5-11 above the knee.  Now has a 90% prorate instead of a forced prorate it looks like.  Damage is up to 32 from 28.  These are some welcome buffs.

5H does 38 damage now instead of 37?  Ok, that's a buff.  Why not.

There is now a 80% prorate on 2H.

There is now a 80% prorate on 6H.  However, the first hit starts on frame 5 instead of 7.

5D not only takes 20 off the RISC gauge like before (dusts were -20GB), but it has an additional 80% prorate!  *Flips table*  At least it starts on frame 26, so it's slower than AC but faster than +R.

j.D's landing recovery is now 9 after landing instead of 8 after landing, so it's nerfed slightly.

Ground throw now has Forced Prorate 65% instead of 40%!  Given that we have to spend 50% to combo off of it, this is welcome.

Air throw now has Forced Prorate 65% instead of 50%!  Given that we have to spend 50% to combo off of it, this is welcome.

Kdive prorates 80%.  This is new, and sucks given that we have to spend meter to combo off of it (AFAIK it doesn't slide on CH anymore).  There's also no mention of the attack level going up when charged, which someone mentioned a few months ago.

Hdive hits for 20x3 again.

Sdive prorates 75%.  This is nerfed from the 80% in +R, which really sucks given that we have to spend meter to combo off of it.  There's also no mention of the attack level going up when charged, which someone mentioned a few months ago.

Sterilization Method has a 60% Forced Prorate.  This is welcome given that it's free to combo off of and a better prorate than I-No's regular Air Throw.

Ultimate Desperation (Ground Super) now does 50x3 damage (buffed from 46x3), but has an 80% Prorate.

 

 

Our IK animation has changed significantly.  It's now 5H.  Without Hellfire, its 9 frames until the screen freezes, and 12 frames later it hits, with invul on 9-30.  So, once the screen freezes, we're invul.  During hellfire the startup changes to 5-9 (making it easy to combo), with 5-19 invul.  If 6P still has the non-standard untech time, it'd be really easy to combo into IK without spending 50% on an RC.

 

 

I could dig for more differences, but I have to go do stuff.  Thanks for posting the frame data here!

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The last column to the right only has numbers on it for throws, and Circuitous gave reason to believe its at a 1750x1 ratio. Diving the numbers by 1750 seem to give throw ranges similar to what you'd see in the past games.

 

Totally wrote the HCL followup being +3 at like 8am after waking up too early!

 

Charged dives was, I think, specifically for H Dive? It was just a side note I couldn't personally translate. And can you actually cancel into IK's? I've only seen it happen through RC's>IK's or after a move that does silly long stun.
And there's totally a chance that 5P>6P is gone according to the gatling chart.

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Ok, thanks for the heads up.  Yeah, I suppose IK's could function like Fafnir where you can't gatling directly into them.  It'd suck to need a CH on specific moves, or to land a 5D in the corner for wallsplat or something.

 

Damn, so her airthrow range is tied with Pot's for second highest, with Bedman having the highest.  And yeah...  it looks like an actual airthrow if they're giving it a range value, since HPB and Heat Knuckle don't have range listed.

 

 

Eh...  it looks like HCL and VLC are airborne on frame 2.  Riot Stomp still looks like it's frame 1 airborne, so I don't think that's a mistake.  That sucks.  I liked using reversal VCL against oki 2K.

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Aww man, just noticed that HCL got a damage nerf to 35 and is active for 10 frames (one less than before), derivative's damage is 25, and VCL's damage is nerfed to 40.  With the second hit of 6H being nerfed to 40 damage (from 52), this means Fortissimo is our highest damage attack.  Since there's a proration to meter gain when using RC/YRC, Fortissimo is going to be our go-to for doing damage whenever we can get away with not needing the time slow on RC to set something up.  All dives had their damage nerfed now that I'm paying more attention.  Hdive dropped back to the AC value of 20x3, but Kdive and Sdive were nerfed to 30 (to match P dive) from 35 and 40 respectively.

 

On the plus side, STBT (both versions) lost their prorations.

 

 

And we have the Devilish I-No Bustah!  That's all that matters!  :yaaay:

 

*Edit*  Ok yeah, google translate for I-No's wiki page says that Hdive becomes 5 hits if you hold it.  It's just google translate (one part of this move's description is "it is difficult to use plants for love is large" :v:), but as this wiki lists moves as lvls 0-4, it'd be weird if they meant that it becomes a lvl 5 attack.

 

If you have to charge it all the way, it's going to be almost completely useless.  The main reason to use this move is for the meter gain since the damage sucks, and if you were to RC to set up a full charge the meter proration would defeat the purpose of doing that.  I guess we could use it in a Danger Time confirm?  Otherwise, if you only have to charge it a little bit, maybe we can get some really fancy TK combos with 5H.

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I really like how different OSCA's and Hasegawa's play look. Hasegawa uses really simple stuff, short combos into KD and oki. OSCA is a bit more of a wild card; trickier stuff and more punishes from pokes and random hits. I like!

 

Osca and U-zen is more fun to watch, but I think Hasegawa is the better player (I wonder what their rankings are??). He's more patient, better defensively, and just overall solid. Not sure if just me, but I notice he gets wins against tougher opponents more frequently.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWOcrNaHpeQ

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Osca and U-zen is more fun to watch, but I think Hasegawa is the better player (I wonder what their rankings are??). He's more patient, better defensively, and just overall solid. Not sure if just me, but I notice he gets wins against tougher opponents more frequently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWOcrNaHpeQ

It also helps that Hasegawa is more comfortable in situations that would seem otherwise. I remember watching Uuzen fight Toruso in Arc revo and the dude just fell apart after he got knocked down. But yea, hasegawa gets a little crap because his execution and crazy setups isn't to other players, but his neutral game strength and overall stability is soo up there ahah

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I know it's not good to be comparing players and what not, but I always liken Hasegawa's I-no to N-O's Rachel, and U-zen's I-no to Rinhime's Rachel.  U-zen (Rinhime) has way better combos and setups, but Hasegawa (N-O) is a more solid player with better neutral and wins a lot more because of it.

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A few questions from a new player:

 

1. Does anyone know how tight I-no's combos are in XRD in comparison to her +R incarnation--not taking into consideration 6frc6?

2. It seems like some of you are excited for the time freeze effect of YRC. Why? Are you using it for input buffering or something?

3. I come from Street Fighter and reading the frame data for this game is odd to me. How important are attacks levels? Also, is there frame data (even loosely) for XRD yet?

4. She doesn't have double air dash? :(

5. Mynus is chaz right?

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1. Has hard stuff, but her overall minimum execution requirements has dropped a lot. Hardest things about her inputs will be proper movement, and a specific combo route shes like to use midscreen now.

 

2. 25% tension for:

  • Oki the opponent can't reversal out of that you can then mixup however you want from.
  • Control pacing of the match better by causing a slow down effect you can act normally from.
  • Use a forward moving special, Stroke the Big Tree, and YRCing it for strong momentum carry to get in, to mixup during some strings, or even to anti air with a grab.
  • YRCing like anything really and just doing stuff!

3. Attack levels are a universal ranking of how much stun things do. Those numbers, combined with a moves recovery/cancel windows tell you your frame advantage and how somethings work in regards to frame data. We have frame data compiled by some players, as well as a whole mook from 4gamer released not long ago. Will eventually be translated here, but you should be able to tell whats going on.

 

4. Nope, sorry.

5. Yes.

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Her combos are not really difficult to perform aside from that, and specially now that's easier to do combos against characters like Ky and Zato/Eddie. It's really important though to learn to do JI especially now that she only has one airdash again (yeah, but that's not the worse thing you should worry about though). VCL YRC is good especially to keep your opponents in the corner and do mixups, and if you had problems doing note FRC you will not have that problem anymore since you're not restricted to specific frames.

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I'll elaborate on #3 a little bit.

 

The majority of players don't really know what attack levels mean, and it's not really important to learning to play the game.  Knowing the attack level helps because it's a universal system of knowing the properties a move will have.  It tells you the standing hitstun, crouching hitstun, blockstun, FD blockstun, IB blockstun, hit-pause, Counter Hit Modifiers, meter gain on hit, and RISC (formerly GB +/-) values, and I may have forgotten some other stuff.

 

Special moves frequently have different properties.  HCL's base tension value is something like 2.5% for using the move and 1.2% on hit/block, but, generally speaking, lvl 5 moves like HCL build 3.84% on hit.  Some special moves build no meter on whiff, like Derivation from HCL which only gives meter on hit/block because you can only use it if HCL hits or is blocked.  Generally though, special moves generally build meter just for being used, and the values don't fit the formula.  Guard Bar / RISC values tend to fit into the convention too.

 

 

So yeah, attack level can tell you a lot.  You don't need to memorize all sorts of values per each move since you can memorize the conventions associated with attack levels, though that's really unnecessary when starting out.  Learning how fast your moves start up and any special properties will help you a lot more early on.  Another note that should help you out is that there are actually quite a few other conventions that are pretty simple to remember.

 

Everyone's 6P has some degree of upper-body invincibility, so that everyone has an anti-air option and it's easy to switch between characters and know what this option is.  However, not all of them are your best anti-air move for a given situation.  Sol's 6P actually hits kind of low to the ground, so it's a good ground-to-ground poke against moves that have high hitboxes.  He has an amazing DP that's untechable on CH, and the hitbox on his 2H also works for AA in some cases, so he doesn't really need his 6P to be designed around anti-airing people.  Compared to that, I-No's 6P is more frequently used to AA people, since VCL, 6H, and 5P are more situational for AA use.

 

Everyone's 5D is an overhead, and 2D is a low that knocks down, ensuring that everyone has basic grounded mixup.  RoboKy was an exception to this with his 2D, but he's not in Xrd.  All j.D moves have some amount of landing recovery, but it varies per character.  Otherwise, jumping normals have no landing recovery (there might be some other special case I'm not aware of).

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Thanks for all of the information. I played Millia and Justice (Don't ask) in +R. I kind of feel like my fundamentals for guilty gear are shitty because of that--meaning I won with Millia if I got to mix-up because she has brain dead mix-up, and I won with Justice because 1. No one knows how to fight that character and 2. Even really simple combos deal a lot of damage for some reason. I tried to pick up I-no in AC, but the moment I showed interest all of my friends (who know more than i do) were against it. Now that there is a new game out I have enough knowledge to know what I'm getting myself into. 

 

With that out of the way, I'm not really trying to be a frame data guru but I do use frame data to tell me what is possible, or what could be possible if I create a specific situation. I'm not sure how much I would benefit from it outside of knowing what is positive or safe in this game though.

 

With my limited knowledge of what I-no used to be, it seems like shes making use of re-launch combos more I guess in lieu of double dash combos? That's a question said as a statement. It seems like she struggles in neutral as well. Is there a good video I can watch of a top player overcoming that?

 

Thank you all for the help.

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It's really important though to learn to do JI especially now that she only has one airdash again

 

I'm pretty sure jump install isn't necessary in Xrd anymore, as all attacks that put you in the air have air options enabled by default

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There are quite a few good I-No players to watch.

 

For Xrd footage, you can see plenty of OSCA, U-Zen, and Hasegawa.  There are some other prominent players, but those names stick out in my mind the most.  There's a video thread that has hours of footage linked thanks to some hardworking people here like OneSanitarium.

 

Looking back at AC/+R, you'll find more of Koichi and 2-Rio, besides the players I just mentioned and several others who's names I forget.  If you really wanna see sexy I-No play, check out Koichi's performance in Slash.  There's another video thread for AC/+R I-No in the AC/+R section of the forums.

 

 

The double airdash thing was new to +R, so she generally liked to either dive loop in the corner for meterless damage, or HCL loop for big damage and corner push at the expense of meter.  I don't know how deep you were into SF, but learning damage optimized combos isn't the biggest priority.  It was actually super important to learn 5K > HCL > 6FRC6 stuff before with I-No because it gave her big damage and corner push, as well as the ability to confirm off of things you wouldn't otherwise be able to capitalize on, but you wont be doing that in Xrd.

 

Her neutral game is difficult, but that's the fun part.  She generally has to be specific in what she uses to beat out moves when you make a read, because while her moves are good, the hitboxes on them suck.  You're generally not going to out poke someone without making use of a very specific property on one of her moves (like the upper body invul on 6P, or the low profile with STBT).  Some characters can answer a lot of situations with a handful of moves, but not so much with I-No.

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There are quite a few good I-No players to watch.

 

For Xrd footage, you can see plenty of OSCA, U-Zen, and Hasegawa.  There are some other prominent players, but those names stick out in my mind the most.  There's a video thread that has hours of footage linked thanks to some hardworking people here like OneSanitarium.

 

Looking back at AC/+R, you'll find more of Koichi and 2-Rio, besides the players I just mentioned and several others who's names I forget.  If you really wanna see sexy I-No play, check out Koichi's performance in Slash.  There's another video thread for AC/+R I-No in the AC/+R section of the forums.

 

 

The double airdash thing was new to +R, so she generally liked to either dive loop in the corner for meterless damage, or HCL loop for big damage and corner push at the expense of meter.  I don't know how deep you were into SF, but learning damage optimized combos isn't the biggest priority.  It was actually super important to learn 5K > HCL > 6FRC6 stuff before with I-No because it gave her big damage and corner push, as well as the ability to confirm off of things you wouldn't otherwise be able to capitalize on, but you wont be doing that in Xrd.

 

Her neutral game is difficult, but that's the fun part.  She generally has to be specific in what she uses to beat out moves when you make a read, because while her moves are good, the hitboxes on them suck.  You're generally not going to out poke someone without making use of a very specific property on one of her moves (like the upper body invul on 6P, or the low profile with STBT).  Some characters can answer a lot of situations with a handful of moves, but not so much with I-No.

 

I was an advanced Makoto player with a few notable wins under my belt. Nothing crazy but good enough to work around her weaknesses and use frame data knowledge to my advantage. Thanks very much for the info.

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4gamer put up images for the palettes, taunts, and respects. Decided to remake the ino color image for the hell of it from their images.

 

pnhmxSb.png

 

I hope the mirror match exclusive color becomes selectable in the console version. It looks really nice.

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4gamer put up images for the palettes, taunts, and respects. Decided to remake the ino color image for the hell of it from their images.

 

I hope the mirror match exclusive color becomes selectable in the console version. It looks really nice.

 

Woah, that blue one looks nice. That is the mirror match color right? That might be my second go to color.

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Yep, In order of 1-6, Mirror. I remembered seeing the blue one a few times, but sort of assumed it was a thing that was only in the loketest or something, and then seeing the 4gamer thing jogged my memory that there were mirror match exclusive colors.

 

Still hope its normally selectable on console. If they don't give us any new colors, than that would be the least they can do. Really expecting new colors.

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The black one which reminds of her default color in Reload version is already good enough for me, but yeah, I hope they will add a bit more for the console release though.

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Oh man that blue looks sweet.  Looks like they realized that pairing a magenta guitar and magenta underwear with dark blue clothes is a bad idea.  That shade of blue is really nice, and the cream colored guitar goes well with it.  Almost makes up for the lack of purple.

 

Honestly, with the exception of their idea to pair the hot pink costume with ganguro, all of these colors look good.  The yellow's hue seems a bit more mellow so it's easier to look at, and the white costume doesn't have that rank-nasty white lipstick.  The only thing worse than that for mental imagery is brown lip-liner.

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That blue one is super sexy, but I will most likely be rocking the Black & Red as I always do in almost every game I play for stream and tourney play. Glad the homie U-zen is sporting the black as well. 

 

Pretty sure Zidane will try to convince me to pick the pink colour as much as possible in casuals tho lol. 

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