[Xrd] I-No Gameplay Discussion

[OneSanitarium]

On Sol

 

Ground Throw RC > Double hover hop cross under > c.S > 5H > j.H > S Dive > c.S > sj.S > sj.H > P Dive > 66 > j.H > P Dive

138 Damage, 4 note oki.

 

I'm bad at combo exploration. Definitely think the key to cross under VCL is an extremely small delay so I-no falls low enough for it to happen. And perhaps a certain moment in the enemies fall arc too.

 

 

 

So you use this when you're anticipating the opponent to burst in a blockstring, right? You use button priority to make sure you get a YRC instead of a gatling, and if they don't burst the chain keeps going?

Pretty much. If they have a burst in stock, you can just input burst safe inputs and get a combo. If they burst, you get a YRC into whatever.

Soul steal, jump block~land c.S punish, what have you.

[Hollysmoke]

Sorry for bugging you with all these questions. I just wanna "git gud" this time around so there's a lot to learn.

[TheRealBobMan]

On Sol

 

Ground Throw RC > Double hover hop cross under > c.S > 5H > j.H > S Dive > c.S > sj.S > sj.H > P Dive > 66 > j.H > P Dive

138 Damage, 4 note oki.

 

I'm bad at combo exploration. Definitely think the key to cross under VCL is an extremely small delay so I-no falls low enough for it to happen. And perhaps a certain moment in the enemies fall arc too.

 

Ah, I just got it to work on Bedman.  That looks pretty good.  I'll experiment with that set up later.

 

 

Just gotta do some basic stuff for Bedman and I'll be ready to do a write up on the wiki.  I guess I'm going to do this tonight since plans fell through.

 

So uh... does Bedman's idle pose last forever or something?

 

Wow at Bedman's hitbox.  Glad I started drinking some rum cause it's taking the edge off of this bullshit.  Even though I-No physically puts everyone she airthrows on the other side of her body, if you RC early enough with Bedman he'll cross you up and stay on the same side.  Also there are times where you'll Sdive wallbounce him and he'll visibly pass over you, but when you catch him and continue the combo he's in the corner again.

[OneSanitarium]

Questions are good and you can never ask too many!

[TheRealBobMan]

Holy shit, **** Bedman.  His goddamn Idle pose (the bed lies down and he sleeps "normally") ducks under HCL.

[madigawadesperate]

Let's be honest, sol just fucking runs and it evades hcl which is twice as annoying 

But that's pretty funny with bedman tho 

[TheRealBobMan]

I'm only mad because it's random.  Sol running under HCL is like Dizzy running over Slidehead.  Also, one of his taunts being able to go under HCL at times is pretty cool.

 

But like, if the Bedman player has his thumb so far up his ass that he decides to just stand there and lose, and then Bedman dodges HCL on his own? 

[OneSanitarium]

Faust crouching dodges Potemkin's 5D, if that makes you feel any better. I also had an Axl run under HCL and 6P me into damage.

 

 

6H's hit trajectory can make it so HCL hits a bit meaty. c.S>6P>6H>Meaty HCL>HCL~Follow Up is like 206 damage on Millia. I don't think this has a worth while use. Some characters you delay HCL on, some you don't.

[Wonderswan]

Elphelt is really damn annoying too. I sincerely hate varied wake-up timing. I'm watching my replays and this bitch has a really misleading hitbox. Trying to land note or wake up shenanigans is just obnoxious, and in this one replay she straight up walks through my HCL at 3 character lengths away. wtf?

 

Anyone else have any experience with this match up yet? Am I just setting things up wrong, or is there actually something amiss here?

[Antitidus]

Yo, what should I do for burst bait punishes? After they burst I try to go in and c.5s but sometimes f.5s come out. It's pretty annoying.

[TheRealBobMan]

Depends on how you block the burst.  Mid screen?  In the corner?  Blocked on the ground or in the air?  IB or regular block?  Where were they vertically when you blocked the burst?

 

 

I just messed around a little bit with training mode and you can set Blocking to "First hit only" and Auto Psych Burst to "1" for decent practice.  Jab, leave a gap, then jab again, or jab > 2H or something.  With the block settings this way, if you take too long to punish they'll block it.  You can also set the CPU to burst at X combo hit, so you can practice BnBs with bursts at any point in the combo.

 

Probably the most universal starter after a burst bait will be HCL YRC.  If you don't have meter... I don't know.  I guess it'll be burst point specific.  I'm managing to get IB > 5H > IAD j.K to work at mid screen.

 

 

Hopefully one of the stronger players can chime in with advice here.  I was able to read bursts decently before, but I always messed up the punish.

[johnysilkboots]

is i-no still as difficult to use as she was in the previous games? Also is she being used a lot or is she underplayed?

[Hollysmoke]

is i-no still as difficult to use as she was in the previous games? Also is she being used a lot or is she underplayed?

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/7367-xrd-i-no-gameplay-discussion/?p=875938

[LionHeartx]

Sin MU is a huge pain for me goddamn.

 

he can slide on reaction to air note at most ranges and it also goes under HCL

 

all his hitboxes are huge so if hes just swinging its super risky to try and move forward unless you just like super jump forward and dive YRC or something

 

he can cancel his DP into other specials for some reason so I have no idea what to do on his wakeup

 

he has a normal where he just pokes the ground with his flag and it hits about 2 character lengths away so you cant even use STBT much

 

anyone have any experience fighting him? I'm really lost in this MU

[TheRealBobMan]

I had played against him a little bit, but both Sin players I've played against were relatively new to the character.  One of them is a smart player that was adapting from Baiken (plays Hakumen in BB), and the other player I don't know, but I beat him in tournament pretty soundly last week.  I'm looking at Sin's frame data and messing around with him in training mode now.

 

 

So first off, if the hitboxes on his special moves give you trouble, block and/or instant block them to punish.  It looks like the majority of his moves are - on block.  Sure, he can cancel them into each other to make them safe, but he can't do that forever, so he's eventually going to give you an opening.  Some of them are slow as **** too so it wont be too hard to see them coming and block in time.

 

Oki will probably be fine with regular note > follow ups.  He can only cancel the DP if he makes contact with you (hit or block), so force him to block a note and move in for your mixup.  If you can't do that and are forced to use basic safe-jump stuff, just block his follow up.  If he chooses not to do a follow up for his blocked DP, he'll get totally owned.  Spending extra hunger on making his DP safe is actually kinda good for us.  Also, VCL YRC should still work.  If you react to him using the DP during the screen freeze, you can FD it and deal with him appropriately.

 

He spends 1K of his hunger meter with every special move except for his hops (the 214 P/K move) and eating, and 1K additional for a cancel (again except when canceling into the hop or eating), so doing DP > another special move costs him 3K total (1K for DP + 1K for cancel + 1K for the next move).  He eventually has to eat, and that has 57 frames of recovery unless he cancels it.  However, the devs were smart and made it so that he doesn't actually fill his hunger until part way through the animation (when he starts glowing after eating the food), so that would still give you plenty of time to punish him unless he eats when you're knocked down.

 

 

That move where he does the big horizontal stab (236H)?  At his max range you'll clash it with 6P, but if you're close enough you can CH him through the move.  It also looks like HCL outranges it, and STBT definitely goes under it.

 

His sliding move (236K)?  If he slides under HCL, Counter Hit him with VCL YRC instead into a big combo.  If you're using note at the right range you can just shoot it low to stop him from sliding in.  You might have to take some risks to beat it clean, but it's possible.  5H and 2H also seem to work on prediction if you're far enough away.

 

That giant slow overhead (214S)?  Looks like a couple of things can actually clash that if the hitboxes connet just right, like 6P and 6H, not that you should use those.  Its so slow that you should pretty much never be mixed up by it (unless he YRCs it into an actual mixup).  You can probably reaction into 2S or HCL YRC once you get used to it.  It covers a big arc so don't dive or summon notes carelessly, but it shouldn't be too big of a problem.  It's also -19.

 

As much as f.S sucks, it actually reaches over his 3K.  HCL also goes over it if you start early enough.  Since his 3K is frame 11 you can beat it in the speed department, but yes he has an option that shuts down STBT if you use it carelessly.

 

 

So, he can 6P through HCL like most characters (though he can do it from really far away), and he has a tool to beat STBT.  If you mix him up in neutral well enough, it shouldn't be too bad.  If his hitboxes overall are too much of a problem, remember that I-No can walk.  You don't have to hover dash all the time.  You don't have to STBT into his 3K and 2S.  You don't have to dash into his 6P.  Walk around, IB moves until he has to eat or he takes a big risk that you can punish on startup.  If he lets you get too far away, you can note him.  Do it low until he starts jumping.  I get the feeling his air-to-ground options aren't that great compared to his ground-to-air or air-to-air.

 

 

I feel like I'm saying too much without really knowing, but I'm testing hitboxes and this is what it looks like.  Approach the match with a different game plan.  If you can upload match footage to the critique thread we can help you more.

[HiguraShiki]

I'm having severe trouble with I-No vs Sol. It just feels like I can't hit Sol out of anything, especially in the air. A lot of the Sol players I fight tend to also abuse their special moves, and it just feels very difficult to counter any of them. Also I'm not sure, but whenever I try to punish the bandit revolver, I end up getting hit after blocking it. Then when it comes to the knockdown, I feel like I can't pressure Sol at all cause of his DP. If I try to rush in and bait the DP, I get grabbed instead. Idk I just need some serious help with this matchup.

[TheRealBobMan]

Ok, Sol I can actually kinda do.

 

Since it's getting to that time where people need matchup advice, I guess we should push to get those threads created and set up properly.

 

Just to start off, Sol's j.P is amazing.  I don't know how well it beats our 6P now, but it beat it clean in AC/+R, and his j.S and j.H are hard to AA if he spaces them well (though they can be beaten).  The thing with j.P is that it'll actually AA our dives if we come at it from above, he can self cancel it on whiff, and it has a lot of active frames.  It's generally really hard to try to challenge that move.

 

With Bandit Revolver, the simple thing is to throw him if he uses it from too close.  It's like -3.  IB the second hit to make it easier to punish and possibly get an actual combo (IB > 2K might work if your timing is solid).  If he uses the Bandit Revolver from far enough away though, you wont have the range to throw, and it makes it harder to punish.  I remember that before it was possible for some characters to IB the first hit and 6P before the second hit, but Sol shouldn't be using BR at that range in 99% of situations anyway.

 

Simple note oki should work against VV, especially now that the horizontal range is nerfed.  It's much harder for him to disrespect it and DP through the note to hit you.  Also, if you stand at max 6P range you can meaty it on oki and actually clash or whiff through VV and then punish him.  That's high risk though because of GV.  Overall, VCL YRC shuts down Sol's reversal options.  If you catch him using VV during the screen freeze you can FD and punish him.  If he tries to push buttons to disrespect you he'll get hit for big damage.  If he tries to BS you can just mix him up to punish.  He can maybe backdash out of the hitbox if he's not in the corner, but timing will be real tight since he doesn't have enough invul for the whole thing.

 

If you're getting hit by random GV, try to predict the startup and counter him with either VCL YRC or a properly spaced 5H/2H for a counter hit.  He can also easily go under us with 2D, so watch for that too.

 

If Riot Stomp gives you trouble, learn to react to the startup and beat him with 6P, but don't get careless because he can YRC to punish.  It's a way better move for him because he actually gets something on hit, but it's still risky for him to use.

 

Don't try to AA Bandit Bringer or Kudakero, unless you're trying to j.P them before startup or throw them or something.  You can jump > IB Bandit Bringer to get a better punish, and you can try to make Kudakero whiff, but the ground hitbox is pretty safe if you have to block it.

 

Try to go under Fafnir with 2K or STBT, but don't be afraid to block or IB it.  I think it beats our 6P if he does it deep enough, and it'll catch jump outs and back dashes so watch out.  Also, don't burst when hit by Fafnir.  It's really easy for Sol to bait that, so 99.9% of the time it'll be the wrong time for a burst.

 

If Sol gets you in a block string, his mixup is stronger than before, but you can still deal with his conventional options.  Don't be afraid to learn how to block that.  5D YRC, Fafnir YRC, and WT YRC really help him out, but probably the thing to watch out for is his new j.S > dj.P/dj.S option.  Remember how when you changed from standing to crouching before you'd still have the standing hitbox for 2 frames which lead to some mixup options (you'd block low, but a move that normally wouldn't reach your crouching hitbox could hit you because you were "standing size" for 2 frames while crouching)?  Well, it looks like you get put into standing hit-stun if this is done to you in Xrd, so much better options are possible.  Sol can apparently combo into VV to launch off of this and actually catch you.  I don't think many Sol players are going to be capable of using this for a while, but be aware that Sol has this setup so you can learn to deal with it.  He has a legit 50/50 off of a safe jump against something like 12/17 characters, and I-No is included in that.

 

 

Watch for his 6H.  They REALLY buffed the hitbox, and it's murder if he counter hits you.

 

Generally speaking, it's risky to hit a button at round start.  You can jump > dive to go over some of his good openers, but he has answers for that.  Those answers can be beaten with certain pokes, but for the most part, Sol is just going to hit a button at round start and we should either block it or try to get out of the way.  The risk of the round starting with Sol CH 6H into a 60% combo with corner push is a big one to gamble on, just for us to get oki off of our best options if they happen to work.

[Essay]

I just noticed we no longer have a dash-momentum jump (669).  The new 66[3] is interesting, but doesn't quite fill the roll.  No huge loss, though I'm left wondering as to whether a dash momentum jump might have slightly expanded combo routes against finicky air-hitboxes like Venom's.

[Slide87]

Hi!

At the beginning, I would like to apologize for my language, I'm still learning English. I am a newbie I -no. Previously, I played in the Guilty Gear Slash Baiken. I'm starting to learn to play I -no, and encounter some problems.
Firstly, i can't do airdash after hoverdash (6[6]9[6]). When I push 6 [6] I-No starts doing dash, but when I press 9 she jumps and nothing more I can do, despite pressing [6]. (I play on the pad)
Secondly, my musical notes are easily circumvented by opponents. Are there any guaranteed setups, for it to lock my opponent?
Thirdly, I have a very big problem in the middle screen, because I have the impression that each character has a higher priority than the I -no. What is best to attack, so as not to run the risk of serious damage from the enemy? What are the best pokes for I-no?
Thank you in advance for your help!!!

[HiguraShiki]

Eh I'm having a problem doing the IAD bnb's on the wiki. Also for some reason, everytime I do the ffvcl when I actually do land the j.k, j.s, it ends up not properly combo'ing. Any tips?

[Antitidus]

Eh I'm having a problem doing the IAD bnb's on the wiki. Also for some reason, everytime I do the ffvcl when I actually do land the j.k, j.s, it ends up not properly combo'ing. Any tips?

On certain characters you need to high jump IAD. Normal IAD works on most characters, but I specifically recall requiring to high jump IAD for sol's match up.

[Blackalpha]

Eh I'm having a problem doing the IAD bnb's on the wiki. Also for some reason, everytime I do the ffvcl when I actually do land the j.k, j.s, it ends up not properly combo'ing. Any tips?

 

Some posts a couple pages back go over this, but make sure you do the j.K and j.S as soon as possible off the IAD to get FFVCL. You'll know you're doing it too slow if she's bouncing up from the VCL after j.K > j.S. This is something you will have to grind out a lot to get consistent, I'm not even 100% consistent with it yet myself and I've grinded the combo out a lot. 

 

Edit: You have to super jump IAD on Sol, Faust, and May, everyone else is just normal IAD.

[Tomo009]

I'm honestly just considering doing j.H xx note midscreen against some characters. I'm finding it really hard to get a safe VCL YRC from the normal sj.IAD j.K j.S xx VCL > j.P j.S dj.S xx HCL ~ VCL combo and I swear if I run into one more Volcanic Viper I am going to rip my eyes out.

 

Sol in general is just really, really frustrating for me, I'm not sure if it is a bad matchup  but it is a matchup I have never enjoyed. Pretty much the only one in the series I can't stand, for as annoying as Faust can be, I enjoy playing against him.

[TheRealBobMan]

Eh I'm having a problem doing the IAD bnb's on the wiki. Also for some reason, everytime I do the ffvcl when I actually do land the j.k, j.s, it ends up not properly combo'ing. Any tips?

 

Yeah, that's my bad.  The table on the wiki isn't fully updated yet.  It's pretty close now though.  I only need to work through Venom, Zato, Millia, and Chipp to have it accurate, but when I first got it up there I was iterating on how it would look and function, and hadn't double checked a lot of the newer combos I had been working on as I was getting through more characters.  Make sure you read some of the notes around the table though.  If I put an asterisk (*) next to a damage value, you need to reach the corner at some point during the combo or the other character will fall out.  I also now have variants for regular IAD and SJ-IAD.  In some cases both work, but one might be a little easier or lead to other follow ups.  More importantly, the SJ-IAD version seems to be more universal if you can reach the corner.  The difficulty ratings aren't quite accurate at the moment.  As far as I'm concerned, anything with the 5H > IAD j.K link is going to be pretty hard, especially if you're linking directly into HCL, VCL, or j.S after the FFVCL, as those are also really tight links.  Anyway, I should have this first part of the table done before I go to bed tonight, and I'll be working on other mid screen combos and some corner combos pretty soon.

 

I'm honestly just considering doing j.H xx note midscreen against some characters. I'm finding it really hard to get a safe VCL YRC from the normal sj.IAD j.K j.S xx VCL > j.P j.S dj.S xx HCL ~ VCL combo and I swear if I run into one more Volcanic Viper I am going to rip my eyes out.

 

Sol in general is just really, really frustrating for me, I'm not sure if it is a bad matchup  but it is a matchup I have never enjoyed. Pretty much the only one in the series I can't stand, for as annoying as Faust can be, I enjoy playing against him.

 

Knockdown with HCL ~ D gives worse oki than knockdown with dives, and the further up in the air you are the worse off you are in advantage time with ~ D.  That particular variant that you're using might be good for getting additional corner push or might be necessary for the character you're comboing, but for the most part you'll have the least time to set up oki.  I'll try to get some simpler double jump combos worked out sometime soon because they'll end with Kdive or Sdive knockdown for better oki and similar corner push, though you'll probably get less damage off of them.  If you have to knock someone down from that far away, you can try to HCL YRC on oki from 2/3 screen to let yourself in closer.  If you don't have meter you can try to cover yourself with TK Note and shoot it up when starting it to encourage them to stay low, but then aim it down if they stay on the ground.

 

Note travels faster when you use it in the air, so TK it at that range.  You also influence it more when you return the stick to neutral and then tap a direction again, so if I do 214P > 222 it'll drop to the ground immediately.  Doing 214P > 88 > land > 1111 is a good way to fake out.  Just practice controlling your notes.

 

If you have 50% there's a really nice setup off of max range knockdown.  If they're used to you not being able to catch them all the time when you shoot a note at this range, even better.  Knock down with HCL ~ D, then shoot a note, aim it down, and YRC.  Immediately after, HCL right as they're getting up and committing to avoid the note, then do the delay YRC setup for those high damage combos I posted.  If they get caught by the time slow from the Note YRC, they wont get out of the way of HCL in time, and if they don't block it you can dash in with j.D to launch them away from the note and set up the combo.  Because they don't get hit by the note it wont scale the combo, and the delay on the YRC prevents the time slow scaling, so you'll do the full 220-300 damage depending on who you're comboing, assuming you can pull off the full combo.  This set up will barely ever work because all you have to do is block the HCL, or crouch under it, or 6P through it, but it's the fear factor of "oh how cute, you think you don't have to block at 2/3 screen" that you want to imprint on them for "taking the risk" of not preparing for HCL at that range.  It'll only take one success to scare them when you're doing 50-70% combos.  You don't even need the note for the setup - it's just the conditioning to make them jump that should make it easier.

[Blackalpha]

Have you guys started messing around with the vertical hoverdash at all (663)? So far I've found doing a note from full screen and aiming it up a bit then hover dashing in and doing the 3 to go higher is nice because it forces the note low (since 3 is a low input) if they stay on the ground and then you come in from the top. Other than that I figure they must have put this in for a reason, right? Just wondering what people have found for usage with this.