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[Xrd] I-No Gameplay Discussion

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Yeah, the j.P at the end is more for the mixup that follows.  Land into 2K for the low and to be frame tight, go into j.D for the last second extra overhead, or go into VCL YRC for a frame trap that beats people trying to beat the j.D.  Getting a j.D out after a j.S ender that late probably wont work (you'll touch the ground and get 5D).

 

You'll also want to mix it up with stuff like 66956 j.K > j.P > j.S > j.H (whiff) > throw/2K.  The big problem is that from 66956 height, plenty of characters have options to low profile under the j.K overhead, and j.S sometimes leans over a crouching hitbox.  It's pretty stupid when this happens since they just crouch under overheads and get to punish for free as a reward for not blocking correctly.

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Yeah, the j.P at the end is more for the mixup that follows.  Land into 2K for the low and to be frame tight, go into j.D for the last second extra overhead, or go into VCL YRC for a frame trap that beats people trying to beat the j.D.  Getting a j.D out after a j.S ender that late probably wont work (you'll touch the ground and get 5D).

 

You'll also want to mix it up with stuff like 66956 j.K > j.P > j.S > j.H (whiff) > throw/2K.  The big problem is that from 66956 height, plenty of characters have options to low profile under the j.K overhead, and j.S sometimes leans over a crouching hitbox.  It's pretty stupid when this happens since they just crouch under overheads and get to punish for free as a reward for not blocking correctly.

 

Agreed, this is why I only do HD ~ AD when they're forced to block a note because if they crouch block the j.K and get hit, you'd have to be very fast with the hitconfirm to do a ground combo (since the j.S whiffs in this situation). I just make sure they see me doing this and block high so I can go 2, 3, or 4 overheads.

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Partial notes for the next loke test have been released. I'm reposting the stuff from the previous test, which includes stuff I missed. New changes for this version are in bold, changes that are unlisted but reported by players are in italics

 

5S:

- active frames increased from 5f to 7f

- staggers on counter hit

 

2K:

- has more vertical range

 

2S:

- moves forward more

- has more vertical range

 

2D:

- cancel window increased

 

H STBT:

- opponent floats about 3x as long now

- causes wall splat in the corner

- 90% initial proration

 

K dive:

- less likely to pass through opponent on hit

- causes ground bounce when fully charged

- new effect on counter hit (doesn't specify what the new effect is; there was literally no effect on counter hit in the previous version)

 

S dive:

- less likely to pass through opponent on hit

- causes long ground slide when fully charged

- on counter hit, causes short ground slide or wall splat in the corner

 

H dive:

- I-no no longer bounces backwards after final hit

- standing/crouching opponents no longer float on hit (from the previous test; not listed in the new notes at all. Maybe they removed it?)

 

Sterilization Method:

- active frames increased

- now has above-knee invincibility

- no longer in counter hit state during recovery

 

Dash cancel:

can cancel normals into hover dash again

dash cancel window timing has been changed

 

Longing Desperation / Ultimate Fortissimo:

easier to input

 

Also, a general change to all dives from the previous loke test that I didn't post: the time to fully charge a dive was shortened but the length of time before the dive automatically releases remained the same. Players thought you might be able to do something like P dive > max charge K or S dive but opponent could tech before reaching full charge.

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i didn't notice that s dive not going through chars as easy change, i'm excited about that making corner combos easier for those days when i'm not feeling the iad, or i'm going for the easy kill but i miss the spacing or jump forward instead of neutral jump and s dive crosses up

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Is it me or does 6p seem like it's not a good anti-air?? Any suggestions on what i should be using??

 

Its actually really good. 1-11 frame invul above the knees. Good for saying "no" to pokes too. You probably have to just practice the timing.

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Some jump-ins will still beat it.  The thing is, jump-ins that have the hitbox to beat it tend to be slow to start (mostly looking at like May stuff).  If you learn to time and space 6P so that they have to space their jump-ins properly, they'll have to do them deeper and later.  That's when you preempt them with 5P, VCL YRC, or 6H (I don't really recommend 6H in Xrd 90% of the time since the reward isn't worth the risk).  5P is frame 4, so you can try to attack first.  With VCL YRC you can safely block if they bait your AA, and if they get hit you'll get a solid combo in most cases (though you do need meter for this one).

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2D:

- cancel window increased

 

This is a big buff.  Note oki is pretty much guaranteed after 2d now.  If only we could get a slightly wider hitbox on 2d so we could actually combo into it on more standing chars.

 

 

Is it me or does 6p seem like it's not a good anti-air?? Any suggestions on what i should be using??

 

It's pretty bad.  Don't ever try it against slayer or pot off the top of my head.  The simple answer to your question is just to avoid ground-to-air situations with i-no.  use j.p and j.h to create space and try to get a note out to start your pressure.

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It's pretty bad. Don't ever try it against slayer or pot off the top of my head. The simple answer to your question is just to avoid ground-to-air situations with i-no. use j.p and j.h to create space and try to get a note out to start your pressure.

What are you even? Ino has one of the most solid and consistent AA games in Xrd. Please refer to the response above you by TheRealBobMan, and do try to have all research done before giving advice (which may be a dissemination of misinformation to players) especially new ones. Let's keep things factual and not conjecture in regards to questions asked as much as possible.

That being said, if an opponent wants to approach me from the air I WILL SIT THERE AND LET THEM hang themselves since it's free damage if your character matchup knowledge is on point.

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The only bad thing about 6P is that it moves you forward so if someone is jumping at you and aiming at your head, you'll often end up whiffing and they'll end up behind you for a punish. Gotta space it correctly.

 

Otherwise, it's an excellent anti-air that catches pretty much anything under the sun except Potemkin's j.S.

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Yeah 6P is reaaaaallly good. Depending on the character move angles in the air it can get blown up though. For instance, elphelt air bridal express if they do it at a correct angle, because of the upper body invincibility it actually goes right through i-no's head and shoulder and then you get punished :(. I've ran into this a few times before in other matchups but that one was the one that stuck with me, so now I just try and air throw it or jump back j.H xx note.

 

Great counter poke as well. Notable mentions I've found on this is slayer mappa/dandy, Ky 5h/f.S, May horizontal dolphin (this one is pretty tough though, tight window)

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What will 2D cancel window change, being able to cancel into note later so it's easier to oki with it? My note would always miss Faust when I was trying out I-no after release.

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Thanks for the info guys..u clearly just need to work on the timing.

I assume you meant "I need to work on the timing" =P

 

Best thing to do is go into training mode and set something like Sol's jK as a jump in. Its range is that you can beat it, and it's visible enough that you can see when you did it right (his kick will go through you as you do 6P). You can then launch into a combo using c.S > stuff if they're close enough. The follow ups depend on character and range but once you get the timing of 6P rest is ez pz.

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What are you even? Ino has one of the most solid and consistent AA games in Xrd. Please refer to the response above you by TheRealBobMan, and do try to have all research done before giving advice (which may be a dissemination of misinformation to players) especially new ones. Let's keep things factual and not conjecture in regards to questions asked as much as possible.

That being said, if an opponent wants to approach me from the air I WILL SIT THERE AND LET THEM hang themselves since it's free damage if your character matchup knowledge is on point.

 

I would hope if we're going to use relative terms like "good" and "bad", that we're going to use them in comparison to other characters in the game.  That is the context of these relative terms, after all.

 

I don't doubt you have successfully and consistently anti-aired plenty of players playing many different characters, but if you really think i-no's anti-air game is good compared to the rest of the cast, I have to wonder who else you've played.

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Slayer's j.H, Venom's (I think) j.H (the one where he sticks the cue down at like a 30 degree angle), and May's j.H stick out as things that you don't want to challenge unless they mess up their spacing/timing really bad.  Then there are things like Sol's j.S and j.H that have a big enough hitbox to beat 6P if they're spaced right, but any slight error in positioning and timing on Sol's part will let you beat these moves, and you can try to 5P early in some cases if he spaces that deep.

 

Hell, even in +R there were moves like Justice's j.H and Baiken's j.H that are insane to try to AA with a 6P, but if they fuck up the spacing/timing a little bit I-No can still 6P through them, and that's before they buffed it to be above the knee invul from frame 1 (used to be frame 1-4 above the waist, 5-11 above knee)  It also helped that back in that game, CH 6H lead to corner push and 50% damage without spending meter.  I really hope they buff the second hit to lead to something out of the corner with this patch...

 

 

 

Also, don't forget that BS is a thing.  If you have the meter for VCL YRC as AA, you could also risk BS.  You'll get back about 12% of your meter if it's successful, it'll stop even the best jump-ins (if they don't bait it), and you won't prorate your meter gain like you will with a YRC.

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I would hope if we're going to use relative terms like "good" and "bad", that we're going to use them in comparison to other characters in the game.  That is the context of these relative terms, after all.

 

I don't doubt you have successfully and consistently anti-aired plenty of players playing many different characters, but if you really think i-no's anti-air game is good compared to the rest of the cast, I have to wonder who else you've played.

Could you please be belligerent elsewhere? It's not conducive to the discussion here. He doesn't need to think it, he knows it and utilizes it consistently at high level tournament play; a level of which he performs consistently well at. This is why we respect the advice and information he provides; it all holds more weight with the experience he's had with GG and high level player as a whole.

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I guess you and I probably wouldn't agree on what it means to be belligerent.

 

The problem with i-no's 6p as an anti-air is and has always been a long startup, few active frames, a very low hitbox juxtaposed relatively close to her vulnerable hurtbox, and a long recovery.  These elements individually may not be much more severe than some other characters' 6p, but combined make it relatively one of the worst anti-airs in the game.  It's very ineffective at stopping IAD pressure or even dry, predictable air normals from many characters.  Often it will whiff right under air-dashed normals, leaving her unable to gatling to safer normals and unable to block for a whopping 21 frames.  She loses upper body invul before the 3 active frames are done, so even on reaction to an air normal she might be able to beat, it has to be done with 2 frame accuracy.  Miss the 2 frame window and you either get whiff punished, beaten completely clean, or giving the opponent an unintentional safe jump.

 

6p is a staple of i-no's pressure, combo, and poking game, but a solid or consistent anti-air it is certainly not.

 

No disrespect to Mynus, who is a capable and technically impressive player, but let's not fall for appeals to authority either.

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stuff

I hope you get a lot more time with the game in order to see how your opinion might be a bit misconstrued.

Certainly 6P is not the end all holy grail of AA - and as we've already established it is situational depending on angle and timing (which other AA options more than make up for) - but compared to other characters and what 6P adds to her game, it is definitely strong & one of the better AA's.

In areas where 6P might be a wash (like mid angled IAD's) you can always;

1) 5P (4 Frames)

2) Preemptive 6H

3) VCL

4) Airgrab (with range tied with Pit this is a godly option)

5) TK cmd grab (will get even better with upper body invul)

6) jump IB > Airthrow/ground throw (this takes your game to the next level of neutral & space control)

Some instances on normals where 6P will trade/lose:

1) Sol j.H

2) Leo IAD j.K/j.H

3) Ram j.H (Sword equip)

4) Chipp j.H (might clash as well - just Airgrab/BS this)

5) Venom deep j.H

6) El j.H/j.D

7) Bedman j.K

-These normals are quite strong against I-no 6P and you should immediately look for the alternative options to AA & challenge listed above.

If you are still having trouble AA'ing with Ino - especially with 6P against normals it should beat - try recreating these situations in training mode to hone your timing and reactions. Otherwise idk man.

You can always try to ask JP I-no players for advice on Twitter as well. They are very friendly and will answer back (especially OSCA, Hasegawa & Machi). There are plenty of ppl in this community who speak Japanese (including me) that can translate for you.

Anyways, remember to be careful with the things you put out there, especially with new players.

- BTW, if your still wondering "who else I've played" to be so confident:

I am already quite versed in the capabilities of other characters. My experience speaks to itself - check Youtube going back to 2003 since XX, EVO 2006 (top 3) & 2007, and footage from Japan (Mikado, Alpha Station - RIP, Shinjuku Sportsland, and Tachikawa) from 2011-2012, or simply any other GG tournament where I've gotten at least top 8 or won vs Killers.

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also stuff

 

There's no doubt how capable of a player you are, I've learned a lot by watching you and other of the world's best I-no's.  By "who you've played" I meant characters you've spent time with.  

 

I've also been playing I-no (along with 90% of the cast) since #r, and I've learned through personal experience and through watching you and other i-no players just how inconsistent her ground-to-air options can be, and what it means if you choose wrong.  I guess we disagree, but I don't think the advice I gave is particularly bad to a new player (to focus on i-no's a2a spacing instead of g2a punishing).

 

I don't see how you can deny though that compared to the rest of the cast, her g2a options are a crap shoot, especially in xrd.  Almost every other character has a normal that will beat (at best) or clash (at worst) a2g offenses that will either trade or beat clean i-no's best ground normals for a given situation.

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I know what you meant, and I wouldn't consider myself skilled if I didn't have exp learning other characters in a controlled setting (this helps with training and learning matchups).

You seem to be the only one with such a polarized opinion on this. Inconsistent is not the best way to describe it, as no one's 6P is "consistent". They are AA options, not DP's. There is no 100% answer to AA with normals, no matter what character.

We can deny because simply 6P works, works well for I-no, works more compared to other characters 6P's. Maybe you are focusing too much on isolated situations where 6P has failed, or are not implemented properly (timing, angle, etc).

If this issue is keeping you from playing I-no at the highest level (seems to be a sensitive-negative issue for you) maybe you should re-evaluate your character choice in Xrd.

I can address this issue during the I-no overview that I will be doing on Mr. Biscuits' stream soon. No problem showing situations where your AA will have to be adjusted, or timing for them to succeed.

If you are simply trying to A2A or space instead of taking initiative and punishing aerial approaches you can with 6P and other tools, you are giving up ground and damage, and quite simply it's just as bad as dropping a free punish combo. You don't get many 2nd chances in Guilty Gear, and especially as I-no if you lose the initiative/momentum/neutral game.

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When is the stream? I'd like to watch it if I can.

And I'd just assume that, just like anything else in the game, the AA 6P is situational, not a be-all end-all answer to all jump ins. You'll want P4U for that. I-No's 6P is great for counter-poking as well, since it moves her forward as well as the upper-body invul. The start-up is 9 frames but its more reliable than say Venom's 6P. It's faster by 2 frames but ehhh. Not to mention with 6P you can combo into lots of things, both as an anti-air or a counter-poke. It's just...good. It's a good case example of learning your normals like the back of your hand.

 

EDIT: Can you use 6H as an anti-air to certain jump-ins like Sol's jS? It's got a bit of range on it but idk about I-No's hurtbox during the animation.

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