[Xrd] I-No Gameplay Discussion

[Essay]

Please don't forget about note YRC guys. Especially off of K Dive. OTG 2K>5S>note YRC after KD dive is almost 100% they will get hit rate. You get to dash like 3 times in their face and adjust to their block attempt.

[...]

Anaboli Chris fake note oki into SM YRC OS is also the God.

I started doing both of these more frequently two weeks ago and, yes, they're great.  10/10.  Would mixup with again.  

 

Also, idk if you've seen my recent matches, but I've started to implement hover>iad>YRC nothing on pplz oki. They can't reversal, and they absolutely panic because the high low becomes unseeable and 100% a guess on there part, which lets you take full advantage on your part if you've already downloaded their panic blocking habits.

Doing this right before they recover?  Sounds like a good way to mix things up when opponents get accustomed to un-slowed meaty timings.  I feel like there'd be a lot of nuance with how you could time this, and it could even play a role in blowing up the BS attempts that will become more frequent after the patch drops.

[rayplay]

Can someone go over the uses of j.D FDC again? I've only been using it for fake highs so far and I feel like I can do more with it.

[PacStrife]

You can use j.D FDC for tons of things. Usually it's for quick cross ups via super jump/jump then late fd cancel into j.k or j.s. Alternatively you can hover dash -> double jump fd cancel into j.s -> dive usually.

As mentioned you can also delay your air landings from any neutral airborne state (ex. Air dash j.p Wiff -> fd cancel x n then go high or land with low/throw.

You can also incorporate the move into grounded or airborne attack strings such as hover dash j.k -> j.s -> fd cancel into another overhead/low/throw. Grounded your looking at things like blocked standing jab or close slash into a quick overhead with a fd canceled j.k.

You can use the technique at neutral as well in some matches where that specific angle of attack is beneficial. Really it's only limit is how you incorporate it, but it can be quite useful if you get the hang of the execution IMO

Edit- movement can be a big thing to if you get multiple fd cancels in a row you don't lose altitude really, so you can air tech and fd cancel to throw off your opponents grounded AA attempts.

But I feel I should also say that it's maybe the least important factor to having a functional, solid, Ino. It's good but not as a starting point or before you know what you're doing with the character IMO

[TheRealBobMan]

You can also jump out of pressure or over lows in neutral while staying low enough to the ground to punish effectively or stuff unprepared AA attempts.  Pot keeps opening rounds with 2P?  Sure, you can jump > dive for knockdown to gain the initiative, but he could start Heat Knuckling or using 2H or something.  j.D FDC over it to deal with both options!  You'll also scare the shit out of someone if you open a round with it while your burst is stocked and confirm into a full combo.

 

 

j.D FDC opener into low IAD j.S > j.H is pretty nice.  If they panic burst on reaction to j.S and you airdashed low enough, j.H will cause you to land just in time to IB the burst.  Besides this, STBT (either) > YRC > momentum carry j.D FDC is also a decent bait.  You try to go under something on prediction, and if you react to them not doing what you expected you can be pretty sure they'll react to STBT with a low, so you YRC and hop over it into a full punish.

 

 

One thing I'm noticing that sucks is how the hitboxes on j.K and j.S don't reach low enough.  Today I found out that Bedman's idle pose (the one I bitched about before where he sleeps) causes him to go under j.K and j.S no matter how you space them.  

[VRyu Sensei]

Osca wrote on twitter that HS STBT is really strong. In the corner, you can do:

HS STBT > iad D > VCL > etc.

He said that vs faust, you can do:

hdash K~S > 2K > 2S > 2D > HCL.

2D still hits after hoverdash+2attacks (longer range on 2D?)

[mynus]

2S has longer forward momentum, letting 2D hit on chars it previously whiffed on.

[Ariscool24]

Also, idk if you've seen my recent matches, but I've started to implement hover>iad>YRC nothing on pplz oki. They can't reversal, and they absolutely panic because the high low becomes unseeable and 100% a guess on there part, which lets you take full advantage on your part if you've already downloaded their panic blocking habits.

 

 

I get this by accident lol 

[TD]

Osca wrote on twitter that HS STBT is really strong. In the corner, you can do:

HS STBT > iad D > VCL > etc.

He said that vs faust, you can do:

hdash K~S > 2K > 2S > 2D > HCL.

2D still hits after hoverdash+2attacks (longer range on 2D?)

Having played for a bit now 2d getting more range is a great addition for ground combos, too many times I find myself having to end a combo at fs, 2s, 5c, or stbt s especially on crouching and max range confirms, forcing at best a reset of sorts.

[mynus]

Having played for a bit now 2d getting more range is a great addition for ground combos, too many times I find myself having to end a combo at fs, 2s, 5c, or stbt s especially on crouching and max range confirms, forcing at best a reset of sorts.

TD come to TSB on the 28th. Let's work on strats/tech!

[TheRealBobMan]

So this thread was posted today.

 

YRC is confirmed to have 1 invul frame right before the screen freeze, and 1 after.  This means a couple of things:

 

1.  There might be situations where you call out someone's 1-2 frame active move with YRC and whiff punish with IK.

2.  STBT (S or H) YRC > throw is guaranteed if they didn't jump or become invul, provided you don't **** it up (I get thrown for using this setup most of the time, but it's because I didn't know about this - now I'll actually practice it).

3.  It's yet another reason why VCL YRC is so good, not just on oki but for frame traps.

 

 

We also need to investigate a couple of things.  When it comes to projectiles, YRC will occur on hit if the active frame makes contact during the 6f startup, whereas a non-projectile will trigger as a RRC if an active frame makes contact during this window and you have enough meter.  There's a strange property with Desperation where you can YRC after the super flash and cancel the move, which shouldn't be possible because it's active 2 after the flash.  So in this case, if you Desperation and see that it's the wrong move, the YRC would only leave a 1-frame gap in vulnerability.  At that point we could block or reversal throw.  I've actually done this before, but the YRC invul means it's even safer than I realized, especially if it's full invul rather than strike invul (since attempts to throw Desperation on startup would have to be that much tighter once the flash occurs).

 

Now, considering that a move couldn't turn into RRC on normal hit unless we have the meter, this creates some really stupid frametrap OSes.  Stuff like 5K > f.S.  Imagine you do this string and YRC the f.S.  This leaves a gap of 2 frames.  Now YRC it.  It wont turn into RRC on hit/block, and we can't PRC on whiff.  If they used the gap to DP out, our YRC happens and the invul occurs on frames 6-7 (not counting the time stop, which would let us react to the reversal).  Slash VV goes active on 7, so we'd have the opportunity to block.

 

IB against the 5K creating a wider gap, and H VV starting on frame 5 will make things more complicated, but that's what we need to investigate.  If we try to YRC the f.S earlier (during the startup) when it can't occur because of the 5K block stun, will the 6 frames of startup for YRC still start counting down and enable the YRC as soon as the gap occurs?  If not, how many moves do we actually need to worry about punishing us between some of our "unsafe" galtings if we YRC?

 

 

 

I-No probably wont benefit from this quite as much as other characters when considering the whiff-punish rewards, but this could potentially lead to some really stupid traps being developed.  I'll try to investigate some tomorrow, but any help is appreciated.

 

 

*Edit*  5K > f.S was probably a poor example because why would you DP out there based on spacing?  2P > 2H is normally a good frametrap because it catches people trying to jump out or poke to stop a tick-throw.  2H doesn't recover fast enough to block a reversal, so in this case a 2P > 2H YRC could work in the way I had described above.

[Rhannmah]

WELL, this explains a lot. I've been wondering why i've been going through some moves while doing STBT YRC and still be able to grab them during their active frames. Now knowing what happens and how good this is with H STBT, which moves you forward a TON during YRC, i'm going to abuse the hell out of it. Especially considering that if they don't react to it before the freeze, it's an almost guaranteed setup for damage if you try to throw them; if they try to throw, you're still in 1f of invuln after freeze so you can throw them for free, if they jump 6H comes out and hits them out of their jump startup. Could be even better with 6 S+HS throw option select for a full confirm if they try to jump out. This seems like a really powerful tool for I-No.

[TheRealBobMan]

So I need to look into this more, but I was able to do 2P > 2H and YRC in the small gap between the hits, even with more than 25% meter.  Not sure how the game is determining what to do there, but it's consistent with Desperation YRC.

5K > f.S also worked.

 

*Edit*  Just thought about how I'd like to play with 2S YRC after it gets increased forward momentum.

[Clousephinat]

Thanks to Karl Kablisk we can see here how STBT HS works now in midscreen, as expected it grants now a high knockdown which probably leads again to a combo with 2S or 5K without having to be CH, and if that happens we can see we will able to do c.S if it's close enough. From the looks of it I wouldn't be surprised if you can make use of 5HS now as well.

[TandooriJones]

hi guys, i'm new to the forum, hoping someone can stop me from going insane/killing my fingers

 

i can't figure out how to do the set up here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlBzSsp-d_Q&#t=1m50s consistently, i've done it probably a few times.

the best i can come up with is that i have to airbackdash right when the opposing character is waking up, but i feel like i must be missing something.

if anyone could help me understand this, it would be greatly appreciated

 

also plenty of thanks to mynus, almost everything my i-no does has been taken from you

[PacStrife]

Those cross-up/uncross-up set ups are all just height dependent. As in how high Ino is compared to the opposing characters standing hitbox. So you can either a) hover dash longer to get the height required to airdash back over them or b) use the 663 motion for extra vertical height when nearing the opponent.

In my testing there also seems to be a way to cross back over the opponent before their sprite blocks your airdash, but that method seemed much harder and easier to react to. Finally you can also do a late j.D, from the air backdash, to cross back over the opponents sprite after they are standing do to the small boost j.D gives, but it's hard to get meaningful damage or a knockdown this way without super.

[TandooriJones]

that's pretty much in line with my thinking, with regards to 663 i think it looks pretty obvious.

 

what i don't understand is why i can't replicate consistently what hasegawa did in that match, on sol (after max range 2k > 2s > hcl). i also tried other various ranges with that combo. it seems to me if it's about dash and height requirement, it should be possible to do consistently, seeing as hasegawa does it without hesitation.

i've seen mynus do it often and consistently as well (on which characters, i can't remember). for me, way more often that not, i don't make it over and dash too far back to do j.h > k. dive, or make it over, dash and stay on that side. is it timing on the backdash? dashing early as possible after the hcl? i feel like my execution is fairly strong, is it a really tight window and i'm missing it?

 

i can certainly accept if that's the case, but i get the feeling i'm missing something

[Hollysmoke]

hi guys, i'm new to the forum, hoping someone can stop me from going insane/killing my fingers

 

i can't figure out how to do the set up here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlBzSsp-d_Q&#t=1m50s consistently, i've done it probably a few times.

the best i can come up with is that i have to airbackdash right when the opposing character is waking up, but i feel like i must be missing something.

if anyone could help me understand this, it would be greatly appreciated

 

also plenty of thanks to mynus, almost everything my i-no does has been taken from you

Are you asking about the backdash j.H? He catches Sol pressing 6P for a counter hit, but it looks like he's backdashing right at the front of his standing hitbox. Would the upper-invul from 6P let her back-dash through him? i just had to space myself properly and do the air-dash immediately to get it to work.

[mynus]

...

i can certainly accept if that's the case, but i get the feeling i'm missing something

What you want to do is dash back over their body during their wakeup frames, RIGHT BEFORE their standing hurtbox materializes.

Practice on every character because everyone has different wakeup times, with huge discrepancies existing with Chipp & Sin regarding face up/down.

Once they start blocking the uncrossup on reaction, you have already conditioned them so you can alternate between:

- dash back stay on crossup side j.K

- dash back stay on crossup side j.K > uncrossup j.D

- dash back uncrossup/crossup throw

- dash back uncrossup 2K

- dash back stay on crossup side j.H (whiffs) > 2K

- dash back choose side VCL YRC (strong)

- dash back YRC to choose side you want to be on > any of above

- etc.

The stay on crossup side options and YRC options help discourage disrespect (including mash 5P & Airthrow) - and really allow you to do whatever you want offensively.

Works on all characters, even Pot. As long as your timing is on point, which it will get as you start to adjust for different wakeup times.

[youcanwonder]

Can I get some pointers in fighting slayer. I was getting my ass beat last night against Mr. Gruber (pretty sure that what his name was) but it was rather frustrating

[TandooriJones]

thanks for the help guys. that basically clears it up for me mynus, thanks for the options as well

 

guess i'll just have to file that one in the practice books. managed to get it a couple times on a few different characters, but nowhere near consistent. shame its just not really clicking

 

just for clarification, when you say "right before the standing hitbox materializes", does that occur as soon as they start waking up? or do the various characters have varying times during their wakeup where that occurs?

[TD]

It's one and the same, really. Every character has different wakeup timings that you have to get accustomed to to execute the technique properly, and their hurtbox materializing is in direct correlation to this. Basically it means right when that specific character is almost fully standing from a wakeup. Think of a rising person, who is about to stand straight from falling, and they just have to lift their head to be in full standing position - you are dashing over their head before it stands upright on their neck and blocks your path.

Any uses for fs? Not sure if it's supposed to be a zoning toon but it really seems to hurt ino in neutral with long startup and recover and unreliable knockdown on top of limited mixup options...

Also is there an easier way to do fdc jd in neutral/from moves? I don't like the idea that I pretty much have to use a burst to get better mixup because that ups the overall risk and puts her entire plan in jeopardy.

Last question, when does one use sterilization method? Resets or otherwise. Air throwing is fun, but...

[mynus]

SM

I'm using SM to challenge air to air situations, resets, YRC OS oki, punishing reckless airdashes/chicken blocking/fuzzy jump, and grabbing Bursts.

Many of the above examples, I tk SM, and use YRC OS if I can. Use 663 to gain height, so that if you need to abort or YRC, you still have another air option left.

With the upper body invul in 1.1, SM is going to be rediculous. Try to start substituting for 6P in many situations, especially against Zato hovering over your head looking for a 6P or VCL callout.

[AvariceX]

Also is there an easier way to do fdc jd in neutral/from moves? I don't like the idea that I pretty much have to use a burst to get better mixup because that ups the overall risk and puts her entire plan in jeopardy.

 

I have a P+K macro button set on the button below my dust button (I play with the following layout):

P S D

K H P+K

 

With the default layout you could just put it beside your dust button instead I guess.  I slide one finger from D to P+K, I find this is a lot more consistent than trying to manually time it with two fingers.  It's still prone to wasting burst sometimes if I go too fast and I haven't really worked out the precise timing to get it every time but it's by far the easiest method I've tried.

 

 

I'm using SM to challenge air to air situations, resets, YRC OS oki, punishing reckless airdashes/chicken blocking/fuzzy jump, and grabbing Bursts.

 

I've seen using SM to grab bursts mentioned before, but it didn't work for me when I tried it on the training dummy; I just get hit by the burst.  Does it need to be TK SM or does it need to be at a certain height or some other stipulation?

 

Other than what mynus already mentioned, some people have habits of jumping/airdashing every time you throw a not or HCL in neutral, if you can spot that habit you can use SM to blow them up for it and subsequently they'll be more likely to stay on the ground for your next note.

[Clousephinat]

f.S doesn't have any useful use right now, if anything you could do 6P>f.S in the corner and then try to do a reset with SM, but even then you would probably want to do 5HS since it does better damage.

[TandooriJones]

thanks TD, that explanation helped alot. i at least understand what's happening now and what i need to do

 

i can't airdash fast enough to get it though.. agh! i will persevere

 

thanks again to everyone that answered, case closed!