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[Xrd] I-No Gameplay Discussion

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With the upper body invul in 1.1, SM is going to be rediculous. Try to start substituting for 6P in many situations, especially against Zato hovering over your head looking for a 6P or VCL callout.
 

 

Yeah, I can't wait to see if that upper body invuln made it in the final version. Right now air SM is kinda cute but hella risky and ground SM is utter shit, but if it becomes a legit anti-air, that move will cover one of I-No's most glaring defensive holes. It's going to be awesome.

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I've seen using SM to grab bursts mentioned before, but it didn't work for me when I tried it on the training dummy; I just get hit by the burst. Does it need to be TK SM or does it need to be at a certain height or some other stipulation?

I can't remember the last time I intentionally used ground SM. TK or jump all the time, and use YRC OS to abort if unsuccessful and Airdash away. Burst grab with TK SM out of a jump cancellable move, dash cancel, or even after a 2P/2K.

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Ground SM doesn't start fast enough to throw a Burst if they start on the same frame.  Gotta use air SM.  I hope the patch makes it just 1 frame faster so we can throw bursts with the ground version!

 

 

f.S is honestly pretty derp right now.  2S covers almost the same uses (range), but you're lower to the ground (might go under stuff), it starts faster, it recovers faster in case of a whiff, and it's not as - on block.  I guess the benefit with f.S is that I-No doesn't extend her hurtbox forward and it has more active frames.  I think the vertical hitbox also extends slightly lower than with HCL so that you can try to catch people that would go under that.  While I'd rarely use it in other matchups, it helps vs Potemkin.  He can't flick it since it's not a projectile in this version of the game.  However, he can Hammefall through it and Megafist will probably go over it, so it's still risky to use.

 

The increased active frames with the patch will hopefully improve it, but I get the feeling that the stagger on CH is going to suck.  We already don't get much out of the stagger on CH STBT-S.  I'm hoping we can combo into something because of the quick hoverdash cancel, but I get the feeling we wont get anything worthwhile without spending meter.

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I feel bad for being unable to get myself to hop on dustloop anymore, been sharing stuff on twitter but not here...

Honestly been working more on Slayer lately but I'll be practicing I-no again soon. Gotta read where you guys are.

 

Little things I've found:

https://twitter.com/HonnouRod/status/557310083940376576

https://twitter.com/HonnouRod/status/557315343417225216

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Someone please explain this to me, the FDC has saved I-No to supposedly get a knocked down? Yes, is the 1.1 patch.

 

I don't understand what you are asking, since your question is not related to what happened on the vid, and it is the exact same clip I just posted above you....?

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Hasegawa thinks it's the invincibility of the YRC that saves I-no from the Blitz Shield. Apparently the Blitz rejection hitbox is only active for 1 frame.

 

This makes a lot of sense. Has anyone seen point blank projectile oki rejection by reversal blitz shield in 1.1 yet?

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Hasegawa thinks it's the invincibility of the YRC that saves I-no from the Blitz Shield. Apparently the Blitz rejection hitbox is only active for 1 frame.

 

Isn't YRC invul only 1 frame before & after as well? Also, did they not test this during the loke-tests, or perhaps it was adjusted in the end release? 

In any case Mother Fucking Praise Be!

 

Edit: Hasegawa's theory is that there is 2F of invul post YRC, and that the Blitz projectile repel active frames is only 1F long, so within that overlap, I-no is not getting repelled, Regardless of Distance. More needs to be tested, but Ogawa wants to blow up projectile Blitz as much as possible.

 

Source: https://twitter.com/hasegawaino/status/578903673314488321

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Isn't YRC invul only 1 frame before & after as well?

 

Yes. If the blitz shield rejection hitbox only lasts 1 frame, it's active only during that one frame after the freeze where you're still invulnerable, so no rejection happens. 

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Let's do a frame by frame analysis: http://imgur.com/a/P3220#0.

The frames are from the 60FPS video on Nicovideo.jp and were extracted using Avidemux 2.5.6. Press the left and right arrow keys to scroll through the images. The descriptions underneath contain a frame count. I hope it's not confusing.

Let's recap:

- Chemical Love has 11 frames of startup (i.e hits on frame 11)

- YRC has 6 frames of startup before time stops; frame 6 = invincible

- YRC frames 7-24 = time stop (18 frames long), neither player can act

- YRC frame 25 = invincible, opponent begins to move (I think this means they begin to animate from being frozen, not that they can perform actions but that sounds weird)

- YRC frame 26 = both characters can act

- Blitz Shield is active from frame 1

- Assuming it takes at least 1 frame for the Rejection to start up, that means successfully Blitzing an attack on frame 1 of Blitz Shield -> Rejection on frame 2 of Blitz Shield

- Blitz Shield Rejection has only 1 active frame according to Hasegawa

Assuming my frame counting is correct, everything looks fine and makes sense up to the Blitz Shield Rejection. The 1 frame Rejection and the YRC frame 6 invincibility occur on the same frame.

Discrepancy: on YRC frame 24 (time stop frame 18) I-no is performing a Faultless Defense. According to the JP players' frame data, it shouldn't be possible to perform an action until YRC frame 26.

Possible answers: a) the YRC frame data is wrong; b) frames from the match video were dropped and this is messing up our frame counting; c) I'm bad at math and can't count properly.

I guess the FD thing doesn't really matter since we're here to look at the interaction between YRC and Blitz Shield. Still, I'm going to keep in mind the possibility that the YRC time stop frame data might be wrong.

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YRC frame data seems correct after doing a bunch of tests with [VCL-YRC and Leo's stance counter] and [neutral YRC without blocking and Leo's c.S.]

 

Similarly, with Leo's stance counter; if you're able to input the YRC on the 7th frame of startup for VCL, you're able to completely dodge his counter due to the invuln. If you input it on the 6th or 8th frame, you get scooped though from my testing. So I guess it's one frame timing with VCL-YRC to avoid blitz shield shenanigans if Blitz Shield properties follows similarly to Leo's counter? The timing feels rather natural tbh if it is only one frame timing though.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvJPicJ9uI8

for reference

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By the way, I've been experimenting with YRC invul for escaping tick-throw options and it's pretty awesome for an OS.

 

Hold down+back, tap 3 buttons with timing such that you'll be invul when they throw (command throw, regular throw, whatever).  If they did a block string, you tap Faultless.  If they attempted to throw, you invul through it.  If it's a command throw, you whiff punish REALLY hard (even with IK under appropriate conditions!).  If it's a regular throw, you can either throw their whiffed 5/6H or use a quick poke to CH.  If you're too late with the YRC you'll get blown up, and if you're early against a command throw you pretty much have to counter-throw or jump out.

 

Compare that to getting caught by a low while you're trying to jump out, or getting CH by a frametrap by trying to counter-poke.

 

 

Of course you can still bait it, and of course you need 25% meter, but it's another good tool in your arsenal.

 

 

YRC through Pot Buster, IK FAB.  Let's Rock.

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Finally able to do fdc consistently, on pad no less. :hype: and it took way less than 3 years unlike a certain other 1 frame link...

I have what is hopefully a few more questions regarding it. So it seems to be a trick that needs ino to be in neutral, is that correct? I can't seem to get it from a Gatling, unless I jump cancel js.

When is it best applicated? Like what kind of strings would be best. Right now I'm doing hover dash js jc fdc js for double overhead and also the low version, but the overhead seems a bit redundant with jd itself already being good for this purpose. There is the crossup version I've practiced a bit to, high hover dash on wakeup into jc fdc.

Saw some applications in neutral from watching uuzen, like floating over some ground attacks... Uuzen does this a lot and this fdc is very scary to be up against. Are there any other notable players who uses this? Saw hasegawa do it once, other than that looks like it's only uzen.

Thanks to the chap that suggested the macro, it wouldn't be possible otherwise.

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Several I-No players do it, but U-Zen generally goes out of his way to burst early (frequent gold bursts) so that he can consistently j.D FDC without worry, and he uses it very frequently in his game.  Hasegawa is using it more and more, but only after bursting, and he doesn't seem to have changed his burst habits at all.  I'm pretty sure I've seen OSCA use it after bursting too, but again it doesn't feel like he's changing his burst habits around this technique.

 

 

Pressure/Mixup Applications:

 

Dash in 'j.K > j.S > dj.D FDC > j.K'
If you're in the early stages where you haven't really grinded out your hit confirms, the j.S will actually combo into j.K.  This is useful when you want to use a secondary mixup but you frequently drop combos by going for them (IE j.K or j.S hits, but then you went for j.D because you didn't expect either of them to hit.  That's the underlying problem that you need to fix, but you can use this as a work around - even U-Zen does that from time to time and saves his combo this way).  As this actually combos, it's also a legit block string (they may be able to IB > reversal out though, haven't checked that yet).

 

Dash in 'j.S > dj.D FDC > j.S'

Use in conjunction with dash in 'j.S > j.K > 2K', dash in delayed 'j.S > 2K', and dash in 'j.K > j.S > j.D'.  The goal here is to incorporate different timings for when you transition from highs to lows, and when doing different follow up overheads.  Also, if you're doing 'j.S > dj.D FDC > j.S', you're using less in your block string prior to this mixup, so it's easier to confirm a combo on some characters (like Millia, Zato, Venom, I-No... basically anyone skinny) because you're not pushing yourself out as far before the mixup occurs.

 

'2K > c.S > j.D FDC > j.K'

This is a frametrap first and a mixup second, but it does both.  It'd be a much stronger mixup first if 2S was still a low, but whatever, we still have 2D if you feel like spending meter.  Or uh... if we can still combo HCL into 5P we can get a meterless pickup.  That said, 'c.S > j.D FDC j.K' is tighter than 2D, and at the proper range for 2D it's kinda risky.  It's still a decent frame trap, and when you have them conditioned to block the overhead you feint by landing into 2K.  When they're dealing with that mixup and you have meter to burn, you can get fancy with 'c.S > 2D'.

 

Dash in 'j.K > j.S > j.D > dj.D FDC > j.K'

Also use when the j.K and j.S are reversed before the j.D.  The key here is that you're removing the landing recovery from your normal j.D mixup (making it safer) and adding yet another overhead.  If you want to get fancy you can feint into 2K after the j.D FDC because the landing recovery from the j.D you didn't FDC is removed by the second j.D that you did FDC'd.  As good as j.D FDC is, you do want to use regular j.D from time to time.  It leaves a gap where 'j.D FDC into j.K' options don't, which means you can use regular j.D to condition them to attempt a counter poke, then frametrap with VCL YRC into huge damage in the corner.  Depending on height when using the j.D, you can sometimes go into j.S instead of j.K for better damage, but you're going to leave a gap in this case.  You could also try to j.P as you land for one extra overhead if they manage to block, before going into 2K, creating yet another mixup opportunity.

 

'Whatever > j.D FDC away'

Rather than blocking a DP and letting them RC it, move out of the way to make them whiff.  You can also jump away into spaced 6P/5H to bait an attack and get a CH.  Remember that CH 5H > STBT-H is going to be awesome in 1.1.

 

'STBT YRC > j.D FDC > j.S'

Use in conjunction with raw STBT (both versions), 'STBT YRC > 2K', 'STBT YRC > Throw', and 'STBT YRC > Airthrow'.  Many players try to jump out of STBT-H, so YRC into airthrow tends to mess them up.  Between doing that, using STBT-S to keep them on the ground, and STBT-H > 2K to catch them trying to jump, you're going to want to get a reward that's better than a throw or prorated damage.  That's where the j.D FDC j.S comes in.  Get your full combo for spending 25%!  In pressure you'll see better results when doing this late out of STBT-S YRC (going to have to YRC at the last second).

 

In Neutral

You can STBT-H into 'j.D FDC j.S' to move large distances and hop over lows.  If you're baiting them to over/under our stuff by using spaced 6P, notes, 6H, f.S, HCL, etc, you can do this as a sort of stupid feint.  STBT-H from a range that they can low counter-poke on reaction, then YRC into short hop j.K/j.S to blow them up.  I'd assume you could also really practice and go into j.H with this, which would lead to slightly better damage and make it harder for them to low-profile under overheads (useful in matchups like vs Elphelt or Millia with their damn rolls).

 

You can also HD and j.D FDC a few times to float over something if you think they'll use a low hitbox, or to extend the time you're in the air if you mistimed your dash in for a safe jump.  Probably wont use this often.

 

If you're falling from the air after a tech and you're right above them, you could use this a few times to stall and hopefully bait a 6P or something.  Look at Elvenshadow using Faust's j.2K FDC for an example.

 

 

Escaping pressure

IB to create a big enough gap, then j.D FDC over a low hitbox.  Think they'll throw?  j.D FDC can help.  It's risky overall but it can lead to nice rewards if you know when to use it.  It certainly helps deal with situations where we can't counter-poke, and it takes too long to jump > dive for it to be a safe option.

 

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure I posted a detailed thing here about this already, or I PM'd it to Hollysmoke and she posted it here.  Check a few pages back in the thread for other uses.  I think I went into some of the crossup applications as well.

*Edit*  Sorry, I should have linked it for convenience.  Here you go.

Edited by TheRealBobMan

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Amazing, thank you.

I will admit to not reading the entire thread, but that needs to be done in case something was missed. Will definitely be using this often, it's just cool.

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I think it was this thread where we talked about one of the jp ino players using mid-combo hcl instead of the normal vcl. 

 

I messed around with it a little bit and actually ended up usually getting more damage out of hcl, havent done the proration math as to why. the damage is really negligible (1 point in this combo) however what i really noticed was that using hcl mid combo was usually easier as it seemed to keep the opponent higher.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzYdpmok2us

 

for axl I needed to delay the very first vcl just a tad to make sure he was high enough for the last part of the combo. When I used hcl I didn't have to worry about delaying anything as axl was just naturally higher. I think it may be because it hit faster or recovered faster, not entirely sure but it's overall easier and i'll be looking to use it more when I don't need the forward momentum of vcl (keeps you from looping it like in the vcl loops, or if you're just not close enough to hit c.s follow-up without it)

 

other stuff that came out of the lab this weekend, including an fdc setup since that was being talked about. IMO its strongest by itself, example: sweep...fdc hi/low on wake-up. She has so many ways to go high, you have to threaten the low whenever you can. She has to be pretty deep to get something off 2k usually.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpVZZ43m6UY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nliv_8FltzI

 

i've got a few older vids in my channel but i haven't been training as much as I should so I'm just stealing tech from mynus until then :)

fdc is really really great though, fdc 2k is like the fastball that makes the rest of her breaking pitches really move

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I think mid-combo HCL is super sexy but since I prefer P Dive KD unless I'm going for SM YRC OS setup or note YRC, I use it only to style. Because the HCL a keeps them higher, it becomes more difficult to do the usual j.S>j.H>P dive section off of normal jump.

While it is possible to do P Dive KD off of super jump, the delay needed and ender (either delay/hold P dive or P dive>P dive) is character specific.

--If you can Faulty, see if you can use the HCL and also still net P Dive KD off of normal & super jump.

Also, first, I just stole that HCL RC full screen extension combo from you lol - was too sick. Second, when you are using the corner HCL>VCL KD, rather than 6H I use c.S. You don't get pushed out to half screen and can use a normal note setup for oki. Of course, since 6H does more dmg, you should still use for kill situations if you don't have 50 meter for OD.

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its actually pretty easy for the mid and heavy weights, you can do that same combo i posted, just try to do the last part as late as you can minus the K dive and it will still give knockdown as long as you didnt start it with an air string or some punches. Lightweights are a different matter, partly because you have to do the combo juuust right (usually delay the first ffvcl a tad) to even have them low enough for the hcl. Tested on may and millia and its possible if you use the ender; sj.S>sj.H > p dive > airdash > p dive > p dive, but again you have to be juuust right about everything. Wouldn't try that in a match on those characters. Luckily both may and millia are really wide in the air so you can just do a normal jump follow up and get the normal p dive ender fairly easily on them. Would still probably save my swag for the midweights though

 

~also... you're right, if im being super aware i should use c.s to finish more...but it seems when its clutch time i always get f.s, they tech in my face, and i die :)

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Yeah getting f.S in a combo is the bane of every Ino player lol. I know your feels.

I'll test more HCL mid combo stuff with the points you suggested.

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I think it was this thread where we talked about one of the jp ino players using mid-combo hcl instead of the normal vcl. 

 

I messed around with it a little bit and actually ended up usually getting more damage out of hcl, havent done the proration math as to why. the damage is really negligible (1 point in this combo) however what i really noticed was that using hcl mid combo was usually easier as it seemed to keep the opponent higher.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzYdpmok2us

 

HCL is a higher level move.  Instead of being -4 it's +3, so on hit you're going to be able to act faster than with VCL which makes it easier to keep them in the air, and it scales RISC by 1 fewer point than VCL.  While it does less damage outright, if your follow ups are slightly better it can definitely amount to more damage.  Otherwise it's kind of an outlier situation, but it's totally possible that at a specific point in a combo a weaker but higher level move winds up resulting in more damage by the end of the same combo than a stronger but lower level hit.

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