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[Xrd] I-No Gameplay Discussion

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I've been compiling something like a Primer based on Japanese match footage, mostly for myself to figure out what works and what doesn't.

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s260/sh/20ce5932-6c2a-4be6-973e-8489af33e57b/e42f4ea873e6a9aeaed1e9581be86fa7

It's maybe 10% complete and I don't know if it's worth the effort to keep on going with it.

This is great, thank you !

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Man that doesn't look too good.  That match up may be drifting back towards 7-3 territory. :-(  hopefully some other changes will counter balance or maybe it'll get reverted back in the console release :-D

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It feels like the extended c.S activation range was nerfed to pre +R status in Xrd, so I think they could go either way on that one (more likely to leave him with the old Xrd hitbox and give I-No other tweaks).  I'd be fine with his hitbox being a pain in the ass again if I-No got old 2D range since then at least we could knock him down from further away and further along in our gatling chain than 6P, and 5K/f.S/2S would be more useful as pokes since they're not very good for much else anymore.

 

Think they'll ever make grounded SM 1-frame faster?  I feel like if we make the hard read, we should be able to throw a burst by special canceling from any normal.  It would be a really cool thing for I-No to have.  Hell, I'd trade being able to YRC/PRC on startup/whiff as if it was a DP.  If they didn't burst we'd be screwed anyway.

 

*Edit*

Oh jeez, turns out that it DID get at least a frame faster.  It fails to grab bursts because they don't go high enough.  Set auto-burst to 2nd hit, then try it from an OTG state (2D > OTG 2K > SM) or against airborne (6P > c.S > SM).  In either case you can throw the burst, and it works on everyone!  All characters go a bit higher when bursting from OTG.  *Second edit*  Except it looks like this is only right after being knocked down.  If you do 2D > 2K it'll happen, but not if you 2D > 2H.

Looks like they retain OTG status for combo/scaling purposes if you throw an OTG burst, which is odd since OTG bursts don't retain the throw-invul property form being OTG.  So after SM you'll get like 1 hit and they auto-tech.  Even the SM itself only hits for like 15 damage.  If you turn teching off (we'll assume that the opponent is smart enough to not tech again and get hit by a SM > Pdive > dash SM reset), the gravity is still so high that they'll land immediately.  Just about the best you can get is SM > dash j.K > j.S > FFVCL > mash 5P for 2 hits.

Edited by TheRealBobMan
Important Discovery

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Considering that most of the buffs she gained in the patch are nothing out of the ordinary I wouldn't expect any amazing buffs like the ones she gained in +R, maybe they would do something minor like expanding the horizontal hitbox of 2K or make f.S a little more faster so that it could be a little useful as a poke, but that's it. I don't think they are willing at this point to make any dramatic changes like giving back her 2D range from +R or even her f.S from Slash (which was actually even more useful than in AC), but from what she already has I'd like that they consider to increase the level of stagger of STBT S since I guess we can't expect Dives to be useful as they were before and HCL with a hitbox from behind like before not just for the sake of buffing her but because it doesn't have any sense that with VCL you can still hit them from both above and below and the same doesn't apply with HCL.

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VCL has a terrible hitbox below I-No.  It reaches to the ground when used on the ground, but if you have Bedman lie down (his idle pose that goes under j.K and j.S) and TK VCL just a few pixels off the ground you can whiff.  It's honestly kind of funny that they gave I-No the upward dash (663) since she doesn't have great air-to-ground anymore.  You can go under j.K and j.S relatively easily so they tend to lose to strong 6Ps on wakeup, j.H had a slight range reduction, VCL had a range reduction (and it wasn't all that amazing before)...

HCL doesn't actually cover all of the area in front of her.  If you're at point-blank range (right up against them) HCL will whiff.  Making it extend back behind her would be great, but it would really suck for Bedman in that matchup.  I'd be happy just fixing the hitbox in front of her, which I consider to be a bug.

 

2D range would be great because we could knock down from 5K, f.S, and 2S.  As is, those moves are pretty much only good as pokes (few instances where you'd use 5K in combos), and only if you have 50% to RC with.  Unsafe on crouching hit since nothing else reaches?  Are you kidding?

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Very much agree. It's really kind of "pick your poison" when I land a hit and just want a knockdown. 2D will hit a croucher but has crap range, HCL has great range but can't hit a croucher. 2S hitting low again would also be sweet.

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I quite dislike situations where you went j.K>j.S or j.S>j.K and the first overhead was blocked. You then went for a low mixup. Now the second overhead hits, but you're at a range where 2K>2S>2D does not work, 2K>2S>2H does not work and the opponent is crouching because he got hit by the second overhead and not the low so HCL doesn't work either.

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I'm tired of bitching about this, but it really does feel like a bug rather than intended functionality.  I'm frustrated to no end by having moves that are "sorta unsafe" on hit.  Yesterday I played at SCR: Prelude II and while I was able to get most people to respect 2S, there was an Elphelt player that would consistently mash without thinking and managed to punish a max-range CH 2S when he was crouching.  For reference, 2S is -5 on block, which is -3 on crouching hit, which is +1 on crouching CH if you recover fully, or "still leaves a giant fucking gap if you cancel into any move or decide to move forward since no other move you have will reach at max range".  5K is -7, and f.S is -9, so they're worse!  While I'm bitching, I want to point out that now I realize why people hate Elphelt.  I think the one really stupid thing about her is that if you hit her while she's holding a grenade, your reward for landing the hit is that your combo is ruined.  CH STBT-H in the corner, grenade knocks her down so you don't get your wall splat into a huge combo.  Are you fucking kidding? </bitching>

So anyway, I want to call out to our attention that the whiff-punish game is hugely important, and it's something that's kind of glazed over by low, mid, and even some high-level players.  In GG, moves have clearly defined purposes because of their properties (EX: 6P's having upper body invul for AA, some moves being throw invul, etc), and so when two moves are thrown out at the same time, you have a yomi game going on.  It's part of what makes this game better than other games.  One thing I learned from playing Melee all those years ago is that mobility and good hitboxes are very important in character strength, and that a game can be ruined by not balancing them well with other factors.  GG adds layers of depth that reduce the amount of "wait for the guy to push a button at the wrong time and punish with poke > confirm super for 50%", so the neutral game is much more fun.  The game is also very oki heavy, so proper offense and defense are very crucial too.  These things are at the forefront of the game, so most people don't even pay attention to them.

But with Xrd, RC gave us the ability to turn any random poke into a full confirm.  People sort-of started to pick up on this.  You'll see Sol's sometimes use some meter to confirm into a combo that pushes all the way to the corner for about 40% despite the 80% forced proration on the RC.


What you don't see is people baiting a normal to whiff, then poking the end of their hurtbox with their highest range move, and RCing into a confirm for either 40% in the corner or 25% + corner push.  Not everyone has a good tool for this, but I-No's 2S has like 1/2 screen range when the camera isn't backed up, so it's a great tool.  We're also talking about I-No, who can totally rock someone in the corner without meter.  Not as scary as Millia, but our damage is a bit higher than hers, so I'd argue that it's totally worth the 50%.

Baiting whiffs and punishing?  Yeah, you'll see that.  It's standard fare to try to bait Venom to 2D in a blockstring so that you can FD the hit before it and make it whiff, then punish him.  You'll rarely see people turning a glancing hit into corner carry into a full corner combo after you've cranked GB to flashing (the Sol that won the tournament yesterday had a great opportunity to do this and didn't take it).  You just don't see people spending 50% to turn an opposing player's poke attempt into a wrecking ball at mid-screen from options that your opponent thinks are safe to use.

I-No is strong in this game, but it's mostly because of RC.  She has a lot of holes in her game that need YRC and RC to be filled.  Pay attention to all of the things that you can do.

 

*Edit*  Hey, so while f.S is still a piece of shit (I'm having a hard time finding a worthwhile confirm at max range even with RC), it looks like it's still a projectile in this game.  It whiffs against Trishula.

Also, Trishula moves Pot's hurtbox forward a crapton.  2H will CH a Trishula from further away than 2S will hit Pot normally, and 5H hits from even further away, not that Pot would use the move in neutral like an idiot.  You can tag Slidehead with 5H though since I-No leaves the ground and he leans forward.  Same kinda thing - CH from 1/2 screen > STBT-H, get a full combo if he was close enough to the corner, or a lot of corner push and 5-hit note oki otherwise.

Edited by TheRealBobMan

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It's not a projectile because even if you hit someone with f.S at full range I-No still gets rejected if they do Blitz Shield, same goes with her Dust.

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It's not a projectile because even if you hit someone with f.S at full range I-No still gets rejected if they do Blitz Shield, same goes with her Dust.

Doesn't that mean you're just too close? 

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Nevermind, I was derping when I wrote that.  Forgot that Trishula is also something like "above the feet invul".  I'm 99.9% sure Pot can't flick it, and the BS thing at that range also confirms it.  Too much staying up late to practice after working overtime hours.

 

The stagger didn't add any minimum stun time to it, so it's just as worthless as it was before.  CH f.S gets you HCL for knockdown, or you can RC and do a full combo.  Except that 2S starts faster, has more range, less cooldown (for when you whiff), keeps you lower to the ground (making it harder to hit you), and combos more consistently into HCL even without CH, so you're better off using 2S in 99% of scenarios.

 

I'm still going to play I-No some, but this BS has me picking up May.

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I mean when koichi had play that match in the current version, he still picked Elph lol

im going to stick with her though, as I don't think it's THAT bad T_T

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Doesn't that mean you're just too close? 

You can try doing HCL YRC at the same distance and you'll see that unlike with f.S she doesn't get rejected, the game doesn't give a fuck and still counts that as a physical attack :vbang:

But I'm pretty sure it was also a non-projectile in #R, though of course that was not something to worry about then and unlike in Xrd f.S was at the very least useful against Sol since doing 6P>5HS against him was difficult to do so back then, and then again there's also that before you could link 2S and f.S with HCL at max range without need of being CH so it was not as silly as it's now to use it as a poke. I really hope they fix that after releasing another patch when -R- comes out to consoles because that's one thing I find really annoying, having to suffer a lot against characters like Chipp in neutral and when I'm finally able to hit them with 2S they still get away hurts too much.

Edited by Clousephinat

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I don't mind so much if I-No is kinda weak relative to others, but I do mind having moves that are near useless.  I also don't like that her risk/reward ratios were shifted around a lot.  I get weaking everyone's mid-screen game and meterless corner push, but I liked when Kdive and Sdive were a combo starters.  Now they only starts combos on CH, with RC (or CH Sdive in the corner).  They both have their own proration, and Sdive scales harshly on top of that, so it's pretty much not worth the meter.  STBT-S is near worthless since they recover at the same time you do if they can mash semi-decently, and a CH basically gets you HCL for knockdown, or you can get a full combo on some characters if you hit with it deep enough in the corner.

Basically, most if I-No's game shifted from being able to win off of a hard to get hit into a combo into knockdown into oki once or twice, to needing to do this 4-5 times with the increased guts.  Most of her strong options basically just knock down, and then you get the opportunity to mess them up.  I'm having less fun as a result.

Edited by TheRealBobMan
My break ended, finishing my post

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I can understand that frustration, but since XRD is my first Ino I don't have those same feelings.  I can tell you that I dropped Sol due to how I felt they shifted his general gameplay around (also sidewinder).  As a result I learned a fun new character and improved as a player.  I guess what I'm saying is that you don't have to play Ino if you don't like it, but we're all here to help develop game plans around what she DOES have.  

Hopefully you'll figure something out one way or the other soon!

 

 

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I'ma keep playing her, but I'm picking up May on the side for now.  Hopefully they fix the things I don't like with console Revelator.  If not, I'm not sure what I'll do.  I still need to finish up the stuff with the wiki that I started though.

 

It'll also help me to keep my +R I-No in shape if I stop playing Xrd I-No.  The difference to her dash is the biggest thing that throws me off, next to the difference in game speed (which causes things c.S > j.S to drop).  It's funny, but now after all this time, HCL 6FRC6 combos are easier than "basic" combos because I'm working off of muscle memory.

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I don't see VCL in that part, or do you mean HCL? If you take a look, Zato was beaten there just because he was trying to hit I-No with j.D, it's not that they buffed the range of it like they did in +R.

 

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Double post I'm afraid, but it can't be helped.

I'd like to ask, is there any trick to do a combo with super jump P without getting a P Dive TK? Recently I've seen a lot of I-No players that do this in order to get a better knockdown, but most of the time I try it is that or the sj.P is unable to hit the character before they can recover, I don't have any problems whatsoever when it comes to do sj.K and sj.S in combos, or even sj.HS as well.

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