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[Xrd] I-No Gameplay Discussion

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I didn't watch the video but I assume it's about throwing people out of safejumps.

Characters enter ground throwable state one frame before they actually land.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

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8 hours ago, TheRealBobMan said:

That makes no sense if it's a recorded input.

Can you try this again with two different characters and see what happens?

On chrome you can see it at 60 fps?

I'm uploading it by my ps4 so cannot do any better than this.

Select the two characters and tell me a basic knockdown with a safe jump and I'll try it

3 hours ago, greatfernman said:

I didn't watch the video but I assume it's about throwing people out of safejumps.

Characters enter ground throwable state one frame before they actually land.

Thanks for the info, didn't know about that (I don't think it's in the wiki or I just missed it? )

Unfortunately the ps4 uploads at 30fps (and scales down to 1080p) so we can see one frame out of two and cannot evaluate if the character is landing one frame after the attack connects

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@greatfernman:  Holy dog dicks, that's actually hugely important and I've never seen it mentioned anywhere.  I have a hard time believing that it was always like that without a source.  Where/when did you find this out?  I mean, I guess it could have been like that...  it was easier to oki with I-No's HD safejumps before because they seemed to have better hitboxes, so you didn't have shit like reversal 6P going through meaty j.K/j.S.  You have to do them lower to the ground now to avoid that, which means you land sooner and would be more opened up to landing on the frame after your normal should have put them in block stun (enabling them to throw you instead of being forced to block).  Still though, I'd say it's a bug that you can be ground thrown while in the air, even if it's only 1-frame and even if it was always like that.  "Legacy" bugs suck.

@G0d3L:  By recorded I meant the input itself, not the video, though I'm probably misunderstanding what you said.  I don't really know... something like a May jump in or a Ram jump in?  Just record 2D knockdown or something and then jump on them with a normal, then play it back and try to throw.  I just wanted to see if it involved more than these 2 characters (checking that it's a global issue and not something character specific).

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don't think it's a bug. i said ground throwable state but that's badly phrased. a frame before actually landing you actually have a grounded hurtbox

i noticed this a while back so i asked guiltyjake about it that's how i know

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On 14/11/2015, 20:49:20, TheRealBobMan said:

 

@G0d3L:  By recorded I meant the input itself, not the video, though I'm probably misunderstanding what you said.  I don't really know... something like a May jump in or a Ram jump in?  Just record 2D knockdown or something and then jump on them with a normal, then play it back and try to throw.  I just wanted to see if it involved more than these 2 characters (checking that it's a global issue and not something character specific).

I got the "record" part.

My bad I put some other thoughts under your quote.

When I asked about safe jumps setups for other characters was in case you wanted to see for example ram' safe jump against millia's wakeup throw.

Just to be sure was a true safe jump with no particular timing involved.

However to avoid the airborne wakeup throw you can space your jump in to be out of throw range (quite obv) and/or have your char land 2 frames after the moves have connected.

This last case is it even possible?

I'm asking this because in case of sol's j.H it was done pretty high (even whiffed on crouching opponent) but still sol seemes to land only 1 frame after it would have connected on a standing opponent.

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Any advice dealing with Millia in neutral? There were 4 good ones at the tournament I just came from (including LK) and I just gotta S.O.S. at this point and see if anyone can give me more insight on this match. I've been struggling with/trying to figure this out for a while despite how much faster she is and I've only noticed Millia players getting even better with their conversions off of nearly anything into a knockdown. I don't really want to talk too much about dealing with the knockdown game as I understand that it is what it is and all the choices I can make to defend against it. I want to know about preventing that more often and getting MY game started more.

Things I've been fighting with so far:

-Millia's 5S is really good vs. I-no's ground moves, but the hitbox is pretty low, so hover dash normals can beat it. Hover dash normals lose to Millia's 5P, 6P, 5H etc. but those typically lose to I-no's 2S. 2S is a real heart breaker sometimes though because you can be too far to get anything from it without meter (or they are crouching...boo). I wish I-no's 5S was faster so I could catch more stuff with it.

-Tagging her with HCL and even instant air HCL is just luck imo. More often than not, she goes right under it. Covering it with YRC helps a bit, but you don't always have that.

-I don't feel like I get much mileage out of note in neutral without YRC (again... don't always have that) and Millia is fast/has more air options, so she's not really scared of it in general. Maybe cut her off with air HCL while a note is out if I can? I dunno.

-I've probably had the most success spacing with j.H, but unless I'm coming in with it (which isn't really spacing at that point), I'm not getting any conversions from it. Sometime's I-no close enough to get S-Dive from it, but that's about it. Thinking about it now, I'm pretty sure she could probably get some RC stuff from it... I'll have to go to training and see. *Edit: Okay, I've got some RC confirms.

-That fucking pin. Hard to call out. The SM air grab to go through and catch her is inconsistent imo and VCL is a counter for it, but hard to react with... you kind of have to know it's coming. I just went to training and fortunately if Millia throws it right over and misses I-no, then you can 6P her on the way down (I was getting blown up earlier by the fact that they can still attack in the air after throwing pin).  Stopping her from picking it back up is hard because of the type of stuff listed above.

 

...Other than that, I'm pretty lost. She's just faster and out-maneuvers me most of the time. It's hard to challenge her buttons.

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I've thrown some basic 2S RC confirms on the wiki if you need them.  The universal route is typically RC > dash j.H, which should be burst safe at this part and will usually bait out a burst because people realize you're "going in" if you RC a 2S on hit from half screen like that.  If they don't burst you still get a legit corner carry combo.  If they're standing and not too far away, you can go into HCL before the RC and get more damage, and if you're near the corner the confirm does more damage than a meterless 2K combo by a little bit.  Also, FFj.D seems to be really effective for character specific combos on her.  It doesn't optimize by all that much, but because she's light you might get an extra VCL loop in the corner or something, and she takes a lot of damage anyway.

There's a lot of taking risks and acting on prediction in this matchup during neutral.  Millia's hitboxes are good enough to shut down our pokes if we're not being precise, and she gets to dance around to bait us to try to hit her.  At a lot of ranges it's a huge risk to throw out a note without YRC cause she can just go around it or dash in before it even starts and then pain-train on us.

1.  Don't be afraid to walk forward during neutral.  There's a range just outside of her effective poking range where she can dodge shit and punish us super easily.  At max range we can almost safely use a note without YRC (chance to lock her down and get close), and at close range she has to take more risk.  If you dash in from that mid-range all the time you're cutting your options too much and making it easy for her to counter poke.  If you're walking she has to use a different set of normals, which we can't bait to whiff and punish with HCL or 2S or STBT, etc.

2.  5K is a surprisingly good AA to use in this match since she can come in at an angle we can't really deal with all that effectively sometimes.  She'll airdash in above 6P range, but kinda below 5P and VCL range, and if you try to take a risk with 6H it's totally not worth it in this game since you get almost squat on CH relative to the almost guarantee that she'll be able to punish it.  5K is hard to confirm off of on her hitbox in that particular position, but you should be able to link j.P > j.S > HCL ~ D for knockdown to get started.  Pre-emptive j.P CH > j.H > HCL ~ D should also work effectively.  5K is pretty active; you you can throw it out early and have her dash into it.

3.  It can be rough, but try to bait her to throw a pin and then guard it so she can't get in as easily.  This strategy works well for Axl, and since we can't really outrun Millia it can be effective for forcing her to come to us if she's really good at runaway.  Without the pin it's harder for her to punish YRC-less Note.  If she backs up to set up a Secret Garden we have an easier time punishing with HCL than she would have trying to punish YRC-less note without a pin.

4.  I think in this matchup I see a lot of IAD j.P > j.S > FFVCL as an air-to-air confirm from Koichi?  Again, early j.P is pretty effective at sniping Millia since she has to delay a little bit to come in from angles that we can't normally deal with.  Just don't overuse this.

5.  Without RC, if you tag Millia with air-to-air j.H you can at least note to get started.  On ground hit you're probably not going to get anything.

6.  Taking a gambit on aggressive use of BS may pay off.  I-No can HD mixup against ground reject state to punish them for trying to counter BS.  Millia is also going to air approach a lot, and will have to change up her timing or bait more if we scare her with BS to air-reject since we should get relatively good damage and corner carry with it.  Don't wait until she's running her oki to attempt a BS.  Catch her being cheeky in neutral.

7.  Regular air throw is pretty good.  Don't forget we have it just because we have SM.  ;)

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Some Millia things:

- she can run under even TK HCL so your right when you say it feels like luck.  Really only want to use HCL to try to catch a backdash or slow recovering normal like 2hs or mash 5p.

- Spaced hover Hs is the name of the game for me against Millia.  On hit or block you have to gauge their reactions to get a knockdown.  Ex. If they stay grounded then maybe you can frame trap or re-dash to get started, if they jump then late HCL cancel will hit them during their jump start up.

- millia's far slash loses to our 6p and stbt (mostly s version).

- jump forward fdc. J.slash can be hard for Millia to deal with at closer spacings.  Beats standing jab and far slash.  I think it beats 6p but you get the idea, it's a hover dash height normal without the hover start up that they are looking to tag with safe normals.

- anti airing with standing punch can work well especially if you slightly crouch first, such as if the Millia is auto piloting iAd jump jab -> jump jab to get back in.

- it's ok to take to the skies if your seeing her air dashing around a lot in neutral ( jumping jab, early j hs, air throw are your main go tos). 

- you have to bait pin and it sucks a lot 

- try to save your burst for guaranteed situations in the corner, like right as she sets a disc for oki and she didn't backdash first.

- if you can note, then just try to follow her as best you can with it. Alternatively iad back into whiffing jabs to fake a note can sometimes illicit over aggression from the Millia.

- for some reason millia's like to blitz a lot?  Know your punishes and try to get a read on the player

- finally try not to bait the burst unless you KNOW or you have to try to win the round.  It's generally not worth it

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46 minutes ago, Clousephinat said:

Does someone know who's this 25 Dan I-No player?

 

Maybe 2rio.  Different name than 2rio normally uses but 2rio had "30" at the start of his name and this guy has "31".  Also uses the same color as 2rio.

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2 hours ago, Clousephinat said:

I'd be very surprised if it's really 2rio, if so, he has improved like one thousand times from his past self lol

I just asked @TENMA0105 (the guy who translated all the JP players' twitlongers after Evo) and he confirmed it is 2rio.

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29 minutes ago, AvariceX said:

I just asked @TENMA0105 (the guy who translated all the JP players' twitlongers after Evo) and he confirmed it is 2rio.

Thanks for that then, good to see how some players have improved with the passage of time, Koichi also seemed to have some problems with I-No at first in Xrd.

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How are you supposed anti-air someone who IAD's on you when you're in the corner? I try I-No's 6P but it usually auto corrects and whiffs or I get stuffed. 5P also isn't any good. 

I usually don't got for an air to air like jump P because IAD's are hard to react to so I'll be taking a risk by jumping and might get anti aired myself. 

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27 minutes ago, Vegeas said:

How are you supposed anti-air someone who IAD's on you when you're in the corner? I try I-No's 6P but it usually auto corrects and whiffs or I get stuffed. 5P also isn't any good. 

I usually don't got for an air to air like jump P because IAD's are hard to react to so I'll be taking a risk by jumping and might get anti aired myself. 

That's your opportunity to get out of the corner with STBT.  Your other option is to just jump and throw it since you have the best air-throw in the game (or you could SM from the ground and your opponent can't throw during air-dash unless it's another I-No with SM).  You already covered the situational options of 5P and j.P which can be good and sometimes aren't.

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You could also try to low profile their attack with 2K and throw them when they land, though this is specific. 

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Depends of the IAD, if we're talking about Millia j.P,j.P,j.P,j.P,j.P,j.P,... you can just IB and then air throw, since her 6P is not really that good as AA like the one Zato or Venom has, you must learn what moves in the given situation can punish this, Venom's j.HS for example absolutely beats this so forget to AA against him that way, while Chipp's j.D 6P only works IF they do the mistake of doing it too high, and unless you play against someone that doesn't know the matchup you shouldn't expect they make that mistake, so don't be that afraid to use j.P if they jump or air dash to often, the reason why she has this normal is with that purpose after all, not to apply pressure like Millia and Ramlethal but rather to not let them start their pressure in the first place.

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Oh, nobody mentioned Blitz either.  That's an option.  In my experience though the best option is to just H-STBT out because it gets you out pretty safely AND puts the opponent in the corner.

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Can you get anything off of 6Ping Riot Stamp? Everything seems to whiff.

How do you get a full punish off of hitting Sol out of Riot Stamp? 6P is reliable but as mentioned the normal combo options after whiff for some reason.

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Depends on when you're timing it.  You might be able to connect with 5H and get a full IAD string, but mostly 6P > c.S > j.S > j.H > Pdive > dash j.H > Sdive would be the go-to option.  This also works when you AA Sin, but doesn't work on most other characters.

 

The Sol matchup is difficult because he's at less risk than us a lot of the time.  If we use the wrong move it leads to him scoring a CH that leads to 1/2 life loss (mostly from Fafnir or 6H), and puts us so close to dizzy that if we don't block the mixup after the combo we get reset and die (essentially off of the one CH).  If we take a risk to stuff those moves with a move like 2S, not only are we at risk from other options as expected (he reads the 2S and goes for something else), but we get way less reward if we're right (just knockdown unless we spend meter).  That said, our options are decent enough, though they're a little weaker than in AC.

Can't reaction jump > dive to beat a non FRC'd gunflame and kick Sol's ass because we don't get a combo for it, and the flames go a bit higher.  If he did FRC but didn't plan to stuff the dive, we'd get away with it safely.  Now Sol gets to punish because YRC time slow.  That option is bunk.  HCL could work to stuff gunflame at the wrong range, but because it's slower to start at long range, we'd knock him down after the gunflame stays active, so we'd get hit, knocked down, and he gets the initiative again, or we block in time to not get anything.  f.S isn't as useful for space control as it used to be either (even though it was a risk in AC, it's awesome in +R), because now you don't force him to go high/low over it, which you could then call out and punish hard.  Instead, there's a range where Sol gets to stay on the ground and we can't really do very much without taking a big risk.  Feels kind of like fighting Ky, except he's not quite as strong in neutral, but gets much better rewards when it works.  If he messes up, he gets more chances than we do since our first correct read simply knocks him down.  Then we get to attempt to roll him.  If he makes the right move we get rolled from the start, and might be dead off of his next mixup because we get dizzied.

Get to a distance and shoot notes, but know when to stand your ground so he doesn't run in for free.  It helps to spend meter on RC when you punish whiffs and confirm into corner carry.  We wreck stuff in the corner even without meter.

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