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[Xrd] I-No Gameplay Discussion

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You can safe jump sol with any button, just depends on your timing.

tk HCL hits gun flame and knocks down sol if your consistent with it.

i just play the match normally waiting to use notes to control Sol into an advantageous position for Ino.  The only thing he can do is try to get close where you can 2s -> HCL to beat ground run ins and j.p or air command grab to beat iAd approaches.  

Of special note in the match is waiting slightly longer or tapping fd when applying note pressure in case he tries to volcanic viper through the set up.  Also spaced hover j.hs is still hard for sol to deal with as long as you get the normal out in time (beats 2d common approaches)

bob already posted the exact punish I use for riot stomp, though I think at the end you can airdash hs -> p-dive again to get a better note set up even mid screen

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6 hours ago, TheRealBobMan said:

Depends on when you're timing it.  You might be able to connect with 5H and get a full IAD string, but mostly 6P > c.S > j.S > j.H > Pdive > dash j.H > Sdive would be the go-to option.  This also works when you AA Sin, but doesn't work on most other characters.

 

The Sol matchup is difficult because he's at less risk than us a lot of the time.  If we use the wrong move it leads to him scoring a CH that leads to 1/2 life loss (mostly from Fafnir or 6H), and puts us so close to dizzy that if we don't block the mixup after the combo we get reset and die (essentially off of the one CH).  If we take a risk to stuff those moves with a move like 2S, not only are we at risk from other options as expected (he reads the 2S and goes for something else), but we get way less reward if we're right (just knockdown unless we spend meter).  That said, our options are decent enough, though they're a little weaker than in AC.

Can't reaction jump > dive to beat a non FRC'd gunflame and kick Sol's ass because we don't get a combo for it, and the flames go a bit higher.  If he did FRC but didn't plan to stuff the dive, we'd get away with it safely.  Now Sol gets to punish because YRC time slow.  That option is bunk.  HCL could work to stuff gunflame at the wrong range, but because it's slower to start at long range, we'd knock him down after the gunflame stays active, so we'd get hit, knocked down, and he gets the initiative again, or we block in time to not get anything.  f.S isn't as useful for space control as it used to be either (even though it was a risk in AC, it's awesome in +R), because now you don't force him to go high/low over it, which you could then call out and punish hard.  Instead, there's a range where Sol gets to stay on the ground and we can't really do very much without taking a big risk.  Feels kind of like fighting Ky, except he's not quite as strong in neutral, but gets much better rewards when it works.  If he messes up, he gets more chances than we do since our first correct read simply knocks him down.  Then we get to attempt to roll him.  If he makes the right move we get rolled from the start, and might be dead off of his next mixup because we get dizzied.

Get to a distance and shoot notes, but know when to stand your ground so he doesn't run in for free.  It helps to spend meter on RC when you punish whiffs and confirm into corner carry.  We wreck stuff in the corner even without meter.

So would I-no vs Sol be a bad MU for I-no then? Are there MU ratios or notes documented somewhere?

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Alright.

 

Also, does anyone have a video of I-No's safe jumps? I heard it was HCL dash land dash land j.S but I'd like to see a video of it in action. I've heard j.K being used too.

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I'd say that even on her best day, it's a 6-4, but seldom ever worse than that. The fact that the match is pretty much about her respecting all his tools while he disrespects hers says a lot. 

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Yeah, the matchup isn't quite that bad.  It was actually pretty close to even in AC, and might have shifted in I-No's favor in +R.  It's just that I-No got some nerfs in Xrd to match her buffs, where Sol mostly got buffs.

 

After you knock down you want to shoot a note to force them to block.  After that you mix up with j.K/j.S/j.H as overhead options or land into 2K for the low (or 2D in the corner to try and confirm into Desperation super for much bigger damage off of a low, but only do this if you have 50+% meter since you wont get any damage otherwise).

If you don't cover the approach with a note, j.K is probably the better hitbox to use for oki.  It starts faster so you have more wiggle room when setting up (in case the reason you didn't use a note was because you had to get in from far away, like with HCL ~ D knockdown).  A major problem right now is that you can be ground thrown on the last airborne frame before you land, so you have less margin for error when setting up a safe jump.

 

If you are covered by note, j.H / feint j.H into 2K is a strong mixup.  If you dash and immediate j.H in Xrd, the j.H actually goes active and you'll hit them as you land.  If you don't hold the dash and delay the button press slightly, it'll look like it's starting up, but it'll whiff and you can go into immediate low.  It's good because j.H starter does more damage than j.S, which is already more than j.K (which prorates).  Between all the different options you have on oki for overheads into lows, or feinting into a low, you're probably going to catch a lot of people blocking the first hit and messing up right after.  You can also layer j.D on top of this, or j.D FDC into more j.K/j.S or even a feint into 2K.

 

This is just a regular match vid, but right at the start there's a good example of a successful safe jump (he feints an early j.H, then dashes again and safe jumps with j.S).  I've time stamped to when it happens, but you should probably watch the whole match after you see how it works because it's Mynus playing.

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Hey! This might be blergh but what do y'all think about ground SM YRC as a mixup tool? As in like, they try to jump out = don't yrc, or just use the air version, or normal air throw. They don't jump = Momentum from SM's jump is good for FDC crossups, fastfalls, and that leads to = High/low/throw mixups. Plus there's the miracle of YRC just as is thrown in there. Just something I was messing around with! 

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@PhantomBlood:  Not a fan of ground SM, even with YRC.  It doesn't go active until 18, which is slow, and it moves I-No too high to grab a burst from the ground.  Pretty sure you have to YRC pretty early before active anyway.  It's not like it's a terrible idea, but there are better options to make them respect you and give you a mixup.  VCL YRC is great for that if you're going to spend meter.  j.D FDC also helps your mixup and doesn't cost as much.  Ground SM is useful for trying to catch jump-ins and IAD in attempts, though I like TK SM.

@Mangyang:  Matchup thread is here.  It might be a little barren for some characters, but it's a start.

 

Hm... I have a little time off work.  Maybe I can try to RTSD some more of the combo section on the wiki for the new Steam players before I'm completely lost to OT.  No promises, and there's plenty of stuff on there already anyway, but if I work efficiently I can probably fill out a lot of what's left.

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I can't, every time I tried in training I just get it one time about twenty, for me at the very least is definitely even more hard than her previous 6FRC6, you've to be really, really, really quick in doing j.D 6FDC6 or you'll not get the low airdash in time even if your inputs are correct. It's a pity I didn't know this before the patch came out because maybe it would have been a little more easy to do in 1.0 without the extra input buffer.

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I'm looking to pick up a new character, and I'm leaning toward either I-no or Ram.  So I'm curious what are the major differences between the two?

I know this kind of sounds like a dumb question, so let me explain why I ask:

Despite being quite different, they seem to have the same gameplan.  Knock you down, preferably in a corner, and set something up.  They also seem to share weaknesses in that neither has a fantastic neutral (Ram worse than I-no maybe?).  So despite being aesthetically quite different, their gameplay seems very similar.

So for someone who plays both, why choose one over the other?

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Ram is probably harder to control than I-No at lower levels.  At higher levels I-No starts using j.D FDC which is pretty hard to do, but Ram has microdash stuff and pretty complex combos, along with a just-frame input 623 move.

Everyone takes advantage of Oki in GG, but I-No and Ram are definitely among the better characters at it.  One major negative for Ram is that if you wind up blocking a DP or Dead Angle, your swords act like they got hit.  They really should be going back to stand-by mode, but they don't.  Bait a burst?  Swords are out of commission for a while.  It's a stupid weakness.  Also, Ram doesn't get meter for her swordless normals, so she has really great corner-to-corner combos that give the other player 1/2 a bar and build you nothing.  Her sword hitboxes are good, but they're not as good as you'd hope.  Ram can probably run more mixups back-to-back without spending meter than I-No if she gets a corner setup with both swords deployed, though their damage is probably similar in that situation.  It's easier to build meter with I-No (or anyone else) though, and it probably puts more mileage in for her.  VCL YRC still leads to a pretty brainless 50/50 on oki, or they can push a button and get hit for 250+ in the corner.  Note YRC does more for I-No's neutral than just about anything Ram can do with 25%.

Overall I was pretty unhappy with I-No coming from AC and +R because of a lot of subtle nerfs from those games, even if she's good in this game.  She kinda feels more like Millia.  Millia didn't really wreck you off of a CH; she'd dance around until she was able to knock you down, then ran a train on you while you struggled to get an opportunity to play the game, whereas I-No worked harder to get a hit but wrecked you off of that hit, then had good oki afterward on top of that.  Now I-No does a lot more struggling to get knockdown, or only gets knockdown for a hit instead of a full combo, then runs oki.  I was interested in Ram because she was a little more like I-No used to be (get a hit and corner carry with 50% damage into dangerous oki, but fuck her ability to run away and call swords all game, which was boring), but when she was nerfed they kinda went too far with some things and made her really weak.  I don't mind working hard with a character, but again, the rewards feel like they're not there with Ram.  She's still pretty much "get them to the corner, then run the pain train", except they can derail your train with a burst, even if you bait it.  :v:

 

I-No has more space control options with her toolset.  I-No is probably easier to play as.  I still like I-No, but I'd be interested in Ram if they fixed some things.  She's really weird though, since you pretty much want to keep your swords equipped in most matchups until you get a hit, then use them for oki and damage.  In some matchups you'll deploy just so that you have a full screen punish option, like being able to punish Venom for summoning a ball at the wrong time.  Ram also has a really silly thing where she can wallsplat you, then use her command throw and a sword attack (2S/2H) on the same frame because they didn't code a restriction on the wallsplat like they did for wakeup/hit-stun/block-stun.

Block?  Get thrown.
BS?  Get thrown.
Backdash?  Unless you're SI/PO/SL you get hit.
Jump?  Hit.

You pretty much have to DP out, and Ram could always bait the expected DP.  Maybe this is already fixed.  I don't know, I've been working a lot so I haven't been following the game as much as I'd like.  I'm rambling, and tired.  Someone else can probably do a better job explaining this.

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Anyone have any tips for mid-long range neutral? I play a lot of venoms, kys and axls and short of a hard read hcl or an unchallenged note I feel like i take a lot of unnecessary chip or worse, and my opponents have to a tendency to go into full screen fireballs so the situation always comes up.

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So the answer to your question is going to be kinda general without more information on exactly WHAT is hitting you/putting you in tough positions.  So feel free to elaborate more on the match up or situation if you would like to.

I would say that generally you want to A) get a note on the screen B) approach/distance yourself from the opponent or C) counter your opponents approach or movement.  As you've already said, blindly throwing out HCL at midscreen is pretty low reward - high risk, so you need to find out when it is garunteed (wiff punishing, countering an airdash, ect) and what it can plausibly hit (out or range normals, backdashes, going through projectiles, ect).  Once you figure out when and where it's good you can improve your usage while finding the gaps where it's not a great idea and form a game plan around covering those gaps.  In some match ups you may even find that the move just isn't suited well and avoid it all together, with YRC anyways.

One example of possible game plans affecting you mid range play: against venom if he's setting balls then you get a free HCL, then your strategy needs to revolve around being close enough to punish the unsafe summons.  If instead he is trying to punish your HCL with 6p strings then STBT becomes an option or counter poking with 2d or 2s.  If he's running away completely then you now get to throw notes to your hearts content and gain a safe approach if he blocks one.  You also have universally good options such as spaced hover dash j.hs, HCL YRC, note YRC, and spaced 2s for testing how your opponent is going to stop YOUR game plan.

anyways I guess what I'm getting at is what you can and should be doing at neutral is largely impacted by your match up gameplan and what your opponent is doing.  Try to figure out specifically what's hitting you or stopping your game plan to win, then figure out how to beat that "thing" or at least how to get a new response from the opponent.

sorry if this was too general or not what you asked, but I wanted to say something other than "knock them down, then do the things" :-D

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Sorry, I have a tendency to gloss over all relevant information so I'll try to be more specific, though what you gave was definitely constructive! Like the HCL against set play. I guess I just felt i do a lot more that was potentially safer and assuming you do a lot more outside of yrc.

The venoms I play have a tendency to be extremely zone heavy, with excellent use of Carass Raid or yrc aerial sets + 6pin' them to help their approach, or set more. If they're too predictable I can usually HCL them, but sometimes i end up trading with the set ball, or a stringer aim because the HCL didn't eat the projectile and then I'm usually at a bigger disadvantage because he'll recover first usually and have ample time to set again or apply dash in pressure.

The Ky I play generally always keeps me at arm's length where his f. s, 5h and 2s make my approach difficult, or at least extremely risky. His ability to aa is really consistent so i generally try to play a grounded game until i can open him up. The most i can ever seem to get is a 2s > HCL if I catch him standing in those situations. If he does shoot stun-edges it's never at a range that's ideal for me and i find the best most safe option for them is 6P them so i don't lose ground, but I also don't gain much since he can set up a Split Ciel, or worse yrc into a punish or an IAD blockstring unless he really badly mistimes it and i can 5p/6p/SM aa into a confirm punish.

Axl is probably my worst match-up, since I'm just very new to fighting the character. Once he gets me that certain range, I'm usually in blockstring for a long time where all his normals like f.s and 3p push me back into his other normals like 6p or 6hs. I guess that's just ignorance, and I'll learn to feel things out better, but I'm often apt to end up full screen and he has plenty of time to react punish most of what I do, so I usually conserve meter exclusively to yrc STBT or an air note for movement and coverage respectively. That's not to say I never get in, or can't open him up, it's just my mid-long range game is really mediocre and is often where i have to burn my meter to get in from both yrcs or FD, which leaves me meterless for RC combos, overhead > super or say a dead angle.

Even if you don't get around to a reply for this, thanks anyway for the suggestions. Even if it was just general advice specific to venom, it still helped me realized (at least after typing this huge wall of text lol) that my problem range sounds like it has to do more with me the player being passive. I need to apply more pressure; particularly with notes. Probably most so with Ky, but I digress thank you for your help! :D

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Here's my personal suggestions, without knowing exactly how those players play against you though.

- Venom: First of all you'll want to learn well the range that HCL has, bearing in mind it's not the same as in previous games, it doesn't hit from behind anymore and it also doesn't hit forward that much, so Venom players are more safe to start setting balls in the screen here, and someone that knows the matchup will know when they are safe to get CH of HCL, so what's the best to do in that situation to stop them setting balls? Your best bet most of the time is to start shooting notes, because if you approach carelessly Venom can easily punish you with 6P or 6HS (this last one also hits low profile so don't even think about spamming STBT in this matchup unless they don't know what they are doing), and I-No's hover dash means that if you let Venom do as he pleases, is even more easy for him to punish you with those balls, so yeah, you'll want to have good space control with the note especially in this matchup, and because the note hits more than just one time depending of the distance, it also means that it can stop 2 or more balls at the same time, and if by then Venom had to block even if it was only 1 hit remaining of the note, is when you'll want to start to get near him and get a knockdown. Also, 2S can be a really lifesaver in this matchup if they try to abuse of 6P AND 6HS, though unfortunately you also have to keep in mind that 2S>HCL doesn't work at max range unless you get a CH of 2S, if you know this is going to happen you'll probably want to at least try to do something shooting a note and see what happens.

Finally, don't try to use 6P as a AA against him because is not going to work, his j.HS has enough range to even hit I-No in low profile if he's close enough, for that you'll want to try and get something of j.P instead, in CH and not in range to follow with j.S, you'll want to do HCL>DCL and get the knockdown.

- Ky: This matchup is mostly about reads really, if you know there's a high chance they are going to do f.S in X situation, you'll want to STBT HS and get the knockdown, if you play against a Ky player that does j.HS most of the time, stop them with j.P, if you play against a Ky player that always does Stun Dipper during your blockstring, use STBT as a frame trap, or even 2HS if after they fear to do f.S and start doing Stun Dipper in neutral instead, you get a CH and a combo to follow with knockdown. In war of projectiles I-No has the advantage most of the time, because even with seals you know the place they are going to hit you, while you on the other hand can move the note to avoid a clash and hit Ky afterwards, you can move the note in the ground if they are abusing of Stun Dipper to avoid the note, or move the note in the air if they try to get away.

So yeah, best way to win this matchup comes mostly in learning about your opponent habits, those are examples to punish Ky, but of course he also has his own ways to punish you instead if you've bad habits like STBT after 5HS, then he can get a free knockdown with Stun Dipper if you're predictable. Be more smart than your opponent and you'll win this 5-5 matchup.

- Axl: This is I-No's worst matchup, the only way for I-No to be good in neutral by shooting notes can be easily interrupted with his 5P, and even by then having hurtbox in his chains means that the note will explode most of the time in many places except in his goddamn face, and 5P can also punish HCL before the projectile comes out. Furthermore again, I-No's hover dash means for Axl in this matchup to hit you from far way most of the time, without any chance for you to even get near him, nor punish him from far way. You'll think to try and get a knockdown with STBT HS, but if you're predictable he can punish you with 2D, so what you can do? This is not something to abuse because is unsafe most of the time, but if you do Dive HS TK and if you're lucky and you're in the correct distance, you'll even be able to get a knockdown of it without spending meter and then do the rest.

Other than that... Yeah, the only way for you to get in is if the Axl player makes a mistake, if not you're screwed the entire round, and you'll pray to have 25% meter so you can try at the very least to do Note YRC and get something.

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Ooooh, I see. Very informative on all fronts. I'll have to apply what you've said and suggested, espeically that aa j.P. I'm definitely sticking to the ground too much. Thank you for the detailed reply! :D

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So I noticed a setup 2rio's been doing lately. Whenever he S dive enders and makes sure they're not teching out to get caught by TK command grab, it actually leaves them able to be crossed up. Stuff like dash > airdash jD will even do it, very neat stuff! Definitely a good thing to add to your mixup arsenal 

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Is someone able to do j.HS immediately after j.D FDC like 2rio does? Even with the superjump I'm unable to do it so close to the ground, and I think this is quite important in order to improve your shitty neutral in the game.

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Actually it should be way more easy, I haven't played -R- yet but Johnny has a really huge hurtbox, even more than Justice in the previous games from what I've seen. Watch the FT10 Koichi vs Karinchu, he does many specific combos against Johnny.

 

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