[Xrd] I-No Gameplay Discussion

[D.R.F.]

#R damage is so silly lol

[Flick]

I would say that the damage value is the same as it was in #R, I know well how just doing 6P>5HS>HCL is quite a good amount of damage done already.

 

Yeah, in Xrd guts seems way more stronger than before when the bar health is flashing, that's what I meant.

I think the damage value is the same at all version of GG, the difference only came from the guts - or maybe the way they designed the HP bar.

And i can assure Xrd's damage or anything related to HP bar is the same as it was in #R, #R is the same as AC or +R, maybe a little bit different for some char because of their changes in guts

[Clousephinat]

I'm sure guts has nothing to do with it, Ultimate Fortissimo does tremendous damage in #R even in guts, you can try it yourself in Training Mode and then do it again in AC/+R. In Xrd is something like this, while in #R, even without VCL (unless you are using EX I-No) you can lead this with, something as simple as doing hover dash>Ultimate Fortissimo>5HS>Longing Desesperation>j.K>j.S>dj.K>j.S>HCL for example, and he's going to lose even more health than that (not to say also, Longing Desesperation seems weaker than before, from what I've seen).

[Flick]

I'm sure guts has nothing to do with it, Ultimate Fortissimo does tremendous damage in #R even in guts, you can try it yourself in Training Mode and then do it again in AC/+R. In Xrd is something like this, while in #R, even without VCL (unless you are using EX I-No) you can lead this with, something as simple as doing hover dash>Ultimate Fortissimo>5HS>Longing Desesperation>j.K>j.S>dj.K>j.S>HCL for example, and he's going to lose even more health than that (not to say also, Longing Desesperation seems weaker than before, from what I've seen).

yeah i got your point, but i think the only problem here is the way they designed the hp bar - making it deceptive or something like that. I have an idea that they made the hp bar not equal to the "length" of it, like the first half only represents 120-150 hp, and the 25% next represent 100, and the last worths like 170-200. In this way, when u do a combo that make enemy lose 50% first hp bar, u'll think "uh oh i make him half dead" but in fact, u just only took him 35-40%. I cant find words to explain my thought better but hope u guys understand what i'm saying :D

[OneSanitarium]

The HP is definitely still 420, and what you are seeing is definitely still just Guts. It just seems to be a lot stronger in the later half of the health bar.

[OneSanitarium]

Double post.

 

U-zen is crazy. He's really good with j.D FDC, uses it in pretty creative ways that seem to mix with the flow of the match well. He also likes to use VCL loops in the corner, no idea why I don't see that from other players. It does good damge. I think this means he qualified for ArcRev? If only OSCA could qualify, all my favorite Inos would be in.

 

And this hitbox is stupid.

[Pestilence]

I use corner VCL loops all the time. I can Jump Install and normally do but VCL are probably the easiest and most reliable of all her corner loops. 

 

U-Zen's midscreen VCL loops are pretty nuts. I'd certianly rank him right behind KK1 as far as technical I-No goes. KK1, U-Zen, Yossan, Inoue, Ten, Attsun. Something a long those lines.

 

Shameless plug https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-Wx-0h3zkQ&list=UUE3lvSw8cEGiOT0EFP8zFew (sorry first combo is on there twice)

[OneSanitarium]

I meant for Xrd.

[Antitidus]

You guys think I-no can STBT-HS under Ramlethal's sword super?

[TheRealBobMan]

I'm pretty sure I've seen Ram catch Grand Viper and Sol's 2D with that thing.  It'd be great if I-No could go under it, but I highly doubt it.  I honestly think that's one thing that's a little too much with that move...  if you can go under Dark Angel, why not this thing?

 

 

*edit*

"He also likes to use VCL loops in the corner, no idea why I don't see that from other players. It does good damge."

 

 

Hm...  most of the early footage I saw involved use of RC, but it looks like he's moved away from using that with his VCL loops and does meterless variants now.  Damage is probably comparable without spending meter because of the prorate.  But anyway, if damage values are mostly unchanged, VCL loop would hit really hard, compared to going into the dive loops I see lots of people use, but the dive loops build more meter if that also hasn't changed.  c.S > VCL > c.S > VCL damage is like 34 > 45 > 34 > 45, whereas c.S > j.S > j.H > Pdive > Sdive does 34 > 23 > 32 > 30 > 30.  The thing is, VCL builds 2~3% meter whereas dives each build like 7%.  Those Pdive > dash Pdive > Sdive > c.S > j.S > j.H > Pdive > dash Pdive > Pdive (knockdown) combos build significantly more meter, and have the added benefit of letting you get 5-hit note oki, which builds guard bar and boosts the damage of your next combo if you mix them up successfully.  Going for damage is generally the better play, but if you were using a highly prorated starter or something with a lot of forced proration (like old f.S, not sure about the Xrd one since people still avoid using it), the Pdive loops are great.  Though if you want to focus even more on building meter and less on damage, Hdive has 3 hits, so looping that into a Pdive knockdown string would probably be optimal.  I think I saw a training mode combo video that included a combo like that vs Ky (the one with the Hdive > Hdive), but I think I-No had full meter when she started or at least near full, so I couldn't tell how much she built.

 

 

But yeah, U-Zen is pretty awesome since he's managing to make I-No look flashy in Xrd with the j.D FDC stuff.  Other players should be going for those VCL loops, especially if they land Fortissimo in the corner.  Most people go right into j.S after Fortissimo, which is silly since j.H is really easy to link there, and c.S/5H > VCL is optimal in the corner (really, j.D is optimal, but only works off of perfectly TK'd Fortissimo, is like 1-frame status, and might not offer the best follow ups depending on the character).

 

We'll get more experimentation when the game hits consoles.  *Sigh*  I can't wait.  I'll hopefully be on contract break at work when it comes out (finally), so if it's late in the US by even only 2 weeks I'll import that shit.

[OneSanitarium]

Kedako posted this image on his twitter.

 

 

Evidently SM's hitbox is pretty crazy.

[Clousephinat]

I see most people doing command air throw>P Dive>j.S>j.HS>VCL>j.P>j.S>dj.S>j.HS>HCL>DCL, but it wouldn't be best to try to do another VCL after the second j.S and then jump again in order to finish the combo?

 

And from what it seems so far, I guess P Dive is the only thing reliable after the command throw.

[OneSanitarium]

It might push them too far away. SM setups will be easier to test on console since you won't need to force the opponent into the air with a combo just to get it to connect.

 

OSCA was trying SM>late P DIve>airdash>j.H>land>c.S stuff a long time ago. Again, easier to test things on console so we'll be able to figure out how to get the best damage and positioning off of it.

[4r5]

Evidently SM's hitbox is pretty crazy.

you think it's a hitbox or a distance check?

[OneSanitarium]

Kedako mentioned something about Heavenly Potbuster. I wanna say it's the hitbox, and they angled it towards catching techs, since that's what it's used for atm. (with a few AA's here and there)

 

https://twitter.com/kedako_faital/status/499829660604039168 The tweet if it's useful.

[Ventus Tatshima]

So i've been trying out I-no. i have a question will everything i learn from playing with carry over to XRD? i really i love using her

[Rhannmah]

The general gameplan remains the same (make them block something, preferrably a note, and go into mixup) but her main combo routes are completely different since there's no FRC's anymore.

[OneSanitarium]

Combo routes are definitely not 100% different, but meter wise she'll do different things.

 

Gatling routes are pretty much the same, she can do stuff with f.S like in #R. Her best meterless midscreen combo in Xrd is the >6P>5H>IADj.K> route, which you can do in +R. How she ends it is different, since she usually wants to do >j.K>j.S>VCL>land>j.P>j.S>HCL-VCL or some form of that. Her dive loops are sort of similar in a lot of cases, but things like her P dive are much m ore untechable, so she can end a combo with that and be at the right spacing/timing to start note oki.

 

You can also practice her movement options. Hoverdash~Airdash, at least for me, took a while to get used to. CL motions are different, but are just a shorter version of what they are in +R, so doing that into a VCL would technically be easier in Xrd. (Motion is 656~956~32146. 6695632146.) This is good for VCL oki, though in Xrd, if you have 25% meter pretty much everyone just does a couple quick hover dashes to get close, and then does a grounded VCL YRC. Reason being is it auto jump installs and the YRC screen freeze makes it pretty much impossible to reversal out of.

 

In short, you can definitely practice her in +R and have things transfer over. It won't all transfer, but practice is practice. She didn't become a different character through versions.

[OneSanitarium]

Finally reached the 10 video milestone for Vs Chipp videos.  

 

U-zen is fun to watch, but early on in the Ashura Zato match, he did the [Note, IAD over into SM], and it was timed to the note hit Zato at the end, preventing a follow up combo. Oh well. Seriously though, watch all that U-zen. It's good.

[OneSanitarium]

I'm gonna try to translate this as best I can. Frame data was compiled Ruu and Kedako.

 

Don't quote me on anything that isn't obvious. Anyone who is more knowledgeable than someone who translated it with like 15% knowledge about JP and 85% google translate probably should give it a look over.

 

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更新履歴
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2014.08/30（土）・完成
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－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
必要な検証用動画
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
・現状なし
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
システム
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
バクステ：16F中、無敵8F
ホバー：9F目から攻撃可能。
ジャンプ移行：3F。
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
フレーム表
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－

P：4F（全体13F）：攻撃Lv.1。
K：7F（全体25F）：攻撃Lv.2。
近S：6F（全体19F）：攻撃Lv.3。
遠S：13F（全体35F）：攻撃Lv.3。
HS：13F（全体34F）：攻撃Lv.5。
ダスト：25F（全体45F）：攻撃Lv.3。

DAA：11F（全体38F）：攻撃Lv.3。地上ヒット時横ふっとばし効果。

6P：9F（全体32F）：攻撃Lv.3。地上ヒット時浮かせ効果。
6HS：5F（全体45F）：攻撃Lv.4。2段目；発生21F。攻撃Lv.5。

2P：5F（全体11F）：攻撃Lv.1。
2K：5F（全体14F）：攻撃Lv.1。
2S：9F（全体27F）：攻撃Lv.3。
2HS：11F（全体23F）：攻撃Lv.5。
足払い：11F（全体31F）：攻撃Lv.3。

JP：5F（全体21F）：攻撃Lv.1。
JK：5F（全体34F）：攻撃Lv.2。
JS：8F（全体36F）：攻撃Lv.3。
JHS：12F（全体着地まで）：攻撃Lv.3。
JD：16F（全体40＋着地後8F）：攻撃Lv.3。

♪（地上）：18F（全体50F）：攻撃Lv.1。2段目以降特殊ヒットストップ6F＋攻撃Lv.2。
♪（空中）：15F（全体着地まで）：攻撃Lv.1。2段目以降特殊ヒットストップ6F＋攻撃Lv.2。

狂言（P版）：14F（全体着地まで＋着地後15F）：攻撃Lv.3。最大タメ時の発生67F。
狂言（K版）：14F（全体着地まで＋着地後12F）：攻撃Lv.3。最大タメ時の発生67F。
狂言（S版）：13F（全体着地まで＋着地後14F）：攻撃Lv.3。最大タメ時の発生66F。
狂言（HS版）：10F（全体着地まで＋着地後10F）：攻撃Lv.3。最大タメ時の発生63F。

最大タメ時はヒット数が3段→5段に変更。特殊ヒットストップ6F。

大木（S版）：20F（全体38F）：攻撃Lv.5。地上ヒット時よろけ効果。
大木（HS版）：28F（全体43F）：攻撃Lv.5。地上ヒット時浮かせ効果。


横ケミ（地上）：11F（全体33＋着地後8F）：攻撃Lv.5。24F目から派生技に移行可能。地上ヒット時浮かせ効果。
横ケミ（空中）：11F（全体着地まで＋着地後12F）：攻撃Lv.5。24F目から派生技に移行可能。地上ヒット時浮かせ効果。
追加ケミ：11F（全体45＋着地後9F）：攻撃Lv.1。

縦ケミ（地上）：11F（全体32＋着地後9F）：攻撃Lv.3。地上ヒット時浮かせ効果。
縦ケミ（空中）：11F（全体着地まで＋着地後8F）：攻撃Lv.3。地上ヒット時浮かせ効果。

消毒（地上）：18F（全体47＋着地後8F）：攻撃Lv.－。ヒットから60F以降行動可能。全体は空振り時のもの。
消毒（空中）：6F（全体着地まで＋着地後8F）：攻撃Lv.－。ヒットから60F以降行動可能。全体は空振り時のもの。

限界：7＋暗転45＋0（全体着地まで）：攻撃Lv.3。最速発生50F。

窓際：7＋演出120＋2（全体7＋演出120＋32：158F）：攻撃Lv.4。地上ヒット時横ふっとばし効果。

一撃準備（通常）：－F（全体76F）：攻撃Lv.－。32F目でゲージ変化。
一撃準備（暗転）：－F（全体5＋暗転66＋5F）：攻撃Lv.－。33F目でゲージ変化。
一撃必殺（通常）：9＋暗転40＋12F（全体9＋暗転40＋47F）：攻撃Lv.4。
一撃必殺（暗転）：5＋暗転40＋9F（全体5＋40＋44F）：攻撃Lv.4。
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－

 

 

 

System
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
Backdash：16F, invincible until frame 8
Hoverdash： Can act from Frame 9
Jump Startup: 3f
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
Frame Data
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－

P： 4F start up, total of 13f. Lv.1
K： 7F startup, total of 25f. Lv2.
Close S： 6F startup, total of 19F. Lv.3.
Far S：13F startup, total of35F. Lv.3.
5H： 13F startup, total of 34F.. Lv.5.
5D： 25F start up, total of 45F. Lv.3.

DAA：11F start up, total of 38F. ：Lv.3。 Blows back on hit.

6P：9F start up, total of 32F： Lv.3。 Floats on hit.
6HS：5F start up, total of 45F： First hit is Lv.4, second hits on 21f. Lv5.

2P：5F start up, total of11F：Lv.1。
2K：5F start up, total of14F）：Lv.1。
2S： 9F start up, total of 27F： Lv.3。
2HS：11F start up, total of 23F.：Lv.5。
2D：11F start up, total of 31F： Lv.3。

JP：5F start up, total of 21F： Lv.1。
JK： 5F start up, total of 34F：Lv.2。
JS： 8F start up, total of 36F：Lv.3。
JHS：12F start up. In recovery until landing: Lv.3。
JD：16F start up, total of40f + 8f on landing： Lv.3。

Note（ground）：18F start up, total of 50F： Lv.1。 As the note grows stronger over time, gains 6F+ hitstop and hit are Lv2.
Note(air）：15F start up, in recovery until landing. Lv.1. As the note grows stronger over time, gains 6F+ hitstop and hit are Lv2.

P Dive：14F start up. In recovery until landing +15F：Lv.3。Can be held for a maximum of 67F? Maybe
K Dive：14F start up. In recovery until landing +12F：Lv.3。Can be held for a maximum of 67f.
S Dive：13F start up. In recovery until landing +14F：Lv.3。Can be held for a maximum of 66F。
H Dive：10F start up. In recovery until landing +10F：Lv.3。Can be held for a maximum of 63f。

最大タメ時はヒット数が3段→5段に変更。特殊ヒットストップ6F。 Some hitstop stuff, probably from delaying the input?

S STBT：20F startup, total of 38F：Lv.5。Causes stagger.
H STBT：28F startup, total of 43F：Lv.5。Floats on hit?

HCL（ground）：11F startup, total of 33f +8F on landing）：Lv.5。Floats on ground hit, can cancel into Deviation from frame 24.
HCL（Air）：11F startup. In recovery until landing + 12F）：Lv.5。Floats on ground hit, can cancel into Deviation from frame 24.
Chemical Deviation/followup：11F（startup, total of 45f + 9F on landing）： Lv.1。

VCL（ground）：11F startup, total of 32＋9F on landing： Lv.3。Floats on ground hit.
VCL（air）：11F startup. In recovery until landing +8F）：Lv.3。 Floats on ground hit.

Sterilization Method（ground）：18F startup, total of 47＋着地後8F）：Lv.－。Can act 60f after succesful hit. Something else I don't understand. "全体は空振り時のもの。"
Sterilization Method（air）：6F startup. In recovery until landing ＋8F：Lv.－。 Can act 60f after successful hit.

Ultimate Fortissimo： 7f start up + 45f super freeze. 0f after super freeze. In recovery until landing. ：Lv.3。速発生50F。 No idea what the end means.
Longing Depression：7f startup +120f cinematic. 2f after super freeze. [Lists the full recovery, which winds up being 32f after the super freeze, 30f after being active?] ：Lv.4。Blows back on hit?

 

IK stuff:

Activation 76f . If opponent is in comboable IK state, 5F startup+66f super freeze+5f after?

 

Actual IK attack is level 4. Startup normally is 9f+40f super freeze+active 12f after. In comboable IK state its 5f+40f+9f respectively.

[TheRealBobMan]

Wow, this is awesome, thanks for posting. 

 

 

 

It seems like a lot of moves have 1 frame less recovery than before.  Either that's an error on the side of the guys who compiled the data or the current data is wrong (seems unlikely that they would make 1-frame changes to everything that isn't f.S), or we got a bunch of really tiny buffs.  2P is actually 2 frames faster, so we're either +4, or even in the event that the data is slightly off, it's +3, unless they made a specific error with that move.

 

5D is faster again, which is nice.  I'd have liked to know when the red flash occurs since that's the "obvious telegraph" point, but we can get that later.  For now we can rejoice that the move isn't borderline unuseable anymore.  6H starts 2frames faster, which helps explain the combos I see that end in 6H > HCL ~ D.  It also got 5 more frames of recovery time, which will suck if we whiff (especially since it looks like the range is shorter), but with the dash cancel we're better off on hit/block anyway.  Confirming that j.D still has 8 landing recovery frames is really disappointing since j.D FDC is more important to I-No's mixup with the nerfs to dive and STBT, but I thought it felt the same during E3 testing so it doesn't sting so bad.  Oh well.

 

Backdash being nerfed sucks.  Losing 3 frames of invul is going to hurt.

 

 

That part after the dives... I really hope that 3 > 5 means attack level goes up when the move "charges".  Extra awesome if the 6F part is reduced landing recovery.  Charged dives being +10 would almost make up for the nerfs.

 

So... can we actually hold STBT or is that an error of some kind?  I haven't seen any footage of that.

[OneSanitarium]

Oh shit. I'm sorry I was copy pasting things so I didn't have to write 'startup. total of." every time. I fucked up, sorry! They're just 20f/28f startup with a total of 38f/45f.

 

I think you're misreading the frame data on the 1f less recovery part. Remember that the total frame count for the data on the wiki is 1f longer than it actually is, since the first active frame is a part of the start up.

 

So her 5P is 4F+4F+6F for start up, active, and recovery. But the move hits on the 4th frame and has 3f where nothing is going. So it's 13f and not 14f.

 

edit: Also,

 

Framedata is wonderful, but contains some mistakes. Like Chipp's jD is listed as 3F, while 60 fps vids show that it's 6F. So beware!

 

Still a good starting point at the very least.

 

edit2: OSCA posted this. https://twitter.com/osca_ino/status/507073626021978114

 

Pretty much just inputs to do j.K>2K>6P>5H>HCL with burst OS's the whole time. 2K>6PKH>5PKH>HCL with inputs during it. I don't know if I'd do this every time, personally. I wouldn't want my natural execution to just be a ton of inputs, but something I'd keep in mind.

 

2K>6PKH>41236PKS also works for 6P>S STBT. I'll see how my fingers feel about it when the game is actually out.

[TheRealBobMan]

Thanks for that frame data correction.  I wasn't paying close enough attention so I totally bungled that up.

 

 

 

Yeah, they need to change this OS shit.  I never though the "RC in hit/blockstun, else YRC" was elegant.  It's also dumb being able to YRC a whiffed command throw.  At the very least they could make it "no YRC during burst startup" so that you'd have to commit 50% and not have it be a mindless OS that only works if they Bursted.  I wonder if they'll do a revision before the console version comes out?

[Essay]

Pretty much just inputs to do j.K>2K>6P>5H>HCL with burst OS's the whole time. 2K>6PKH>5PKH>HCL with inputs during it. I don't know if I'd do this every time, personally. I wouldn't want my natural execution to just be a ton of inputs, but something I'd keep in mind.

 

2K>6PKH>41236PKS also works for 6P>S STBT. I'll see how my fingers feel about it when the game is actually out.

Oh nice.  That's all it takes?  I already input 2K > 6P+H in some matchups to throw hit-invulnerable wake-up moves, so what's one more button?  I'm just curious what the actual timing feels like, because it's probably not the same as wiffing 2K into throw.  Is it actually the 2K and 6P that are potentially getting YRC'd in that example?

 

And thank you for translating what you could from the frame data. 

[9TNine]

That part after the dives... I really hope that 3 > 5 means attack level goes up when the move "charges".  Extra awesome if the 6F part is reduced landing recovery.  Charged dives being +10 would almost make up for the nerfs.

 

I believe it's If dive is held for max duration, move changes from Level 3 to Level 5. Unique 6 Frame hitstop.

 

-9