[CP] Rachel vs. Kagura

[gli]

Discuss this dance here.

Some general tips I've gathered:

- His "WYVERN!" charging in move absorbs projectiles. Anticipate this during your zoning. Snipe it with 6B. Basically, treat it as if it's another sledge except he has to be in a certain stance to use it. DO NOT TEMPEST DAHLIA... you will be sad.

- His normals are insanely big. I find that playing patiently and making him whiff more effective than trying to go in all the time.

- Once you have him in the corner you are pretty much in control. It's very likely Kagura will DP out so just bait it with safe frog setup / pumpkin setups.

[Tari]

Not familiar with how Rachel plays in this game, so take this stuff with a grain of salt.

I was basically just playing her as a pure zoning character and throwing lobelias, jumping/flying around, and landing the occasional hit confirm into the old CSE BBL combos (albeit shortened, since you can't really do the full combos anymore).

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Try to not allow him to push you into the corner. He's not that strong midscreen, but once he gets to the corner, he has every type of mixup in the game (overhead, crossup, command throw, guardpoint frametraps, etc.), and it can be quite terrifying, especially since he has fairly good corner damage.

Play patiently, take advantage of his bad movement and zone him to heck and back.

You can punish him with projectiles for using his projectile-absorbing move, but you have to either stuff its startup or recovery (which feels fairly substantial). Otherwise, just avoid it or 6B it.

6B is good for stuffing some drive moves, but should probably not be used too much outside of that. If you do land a counterhit 6B, it's reasonable to not follow it up with a full combo and instead just set up a bunch of zoning tools (though this is not as much of an issue in this game, what with air combos actually having knockback enders).

Also, when he starts doing his drive/stance mixups, you can use cat chair against a number of his moves. It's a weird situation, because he can theoretically bait it or space himself to avoid the counterhit, but if he adjusts his pressure to deal with the chair, his blockstring becomes far less effective. It feels like you can probably reaction cat chair some of his drive moves, but it's a dangerous game to play.

It's worth knowing that, if you IB the second hit of his sliding drive move (it's probably Ryuusenken [2D~B], but I wouldn't know for sure), you can throw him out of any attack followup he tries to do, but not hit him out of them. If he decides to use his sword bunt and you attempt to do an attack, he'll guardpoint it and fatal counter you. Alternatively, you can cat chair here as well, if you miss the IB, but he can opt to just stop attacking completely if he thinks you're going to do it.

Don't try to summon things when you're only sorta far range from him, by the way. He can hit you there for decent damage and corner carry. His worst ranges seem to be mid-ranges, where he has no real tools (though neither do we), and very far ranges, from where zoners just laugh at him forever.

He has difficulty approaching you without using his projectile-invuln move, so try to keep him away from you. Tempest Dahlia is okay if you get him in the sky, if you catch him recovering from something, or if he's sorta close to you. His projectile invuln move has a total of 31 frames of startup (16 on stance, 15 on the move) if he gets it as early as possible, and TD, as long as you aren't at 0 wind, is only 1 frame after the superflash before projectiles start flying. Definitely a gamble, though, if you do it while he's grounded.

Watch out for his DP, because it's a down-charge move. You can't effectively cross it up to negate it, and it has a huge aerial hitbox. That said, if he's blocking something high or if he stands at ANY POINT when blocking, he is guaranteed to not be able to use his DP for a while.

Similarly, his wakeup super is pretty much not an issue if you see him emergency tech. He needs to hold back to charge it, but emergency teching can only happen if he's not holding a direction. A bit unfortunate for him, but oh well.

[Herbal Grey]

i dont know if i saw this or not in the posts, but 3c goes right under that charging move. so yea....good damage if you call out his sledge with 3c

[Venussail91]

For his projectile invul move, is there any reliable to punish it if you block it instead of making it whiff?

[TheArm05]

If you block wyvern the punish depends on the spacing. If he ends up right next to you its free 2A/5B but if he ends up farther away sometimes you can't do anything. If he ends up on a pole you can lightning him or if george is out a lot of the times george will punish them automatically.

It really is better to just avoid the move entirely or beat it out. Once you start doing 6B CH combos or hitting them with pumpkin on the recovery every time they try it they will just stop using this move almost entirely or they will lose.

[Celerity]

If you block wyvern the punish depends on the spacing. If he ends up right next to you its free 2A/5B but if he ends up farther away sometimes you can't do anything. If he ends up on a pole you can lightning him or if george is out a lot of the times george will punish them automatically.

It really is better to just avoid the move entirely or beat it out. Once you start doing 6B CH combos or hitting them with pumpkin on the recovery every time they try it they will just stop using this move almost entirely or they will lose.

It's not a free 5B though because he can cancel into another drive move and beat whatever you do. He has a lot of frame traps from there that will beat 2C, and one that even catches backdashing. You're best off trying to keep him far enough away that you can stuff it with 6B, jump over it, or 2C it on reaction.

[TheArm05]

According to the frame data at best that move is -8. He has to cancel into a stance to do another move so there is delay that lets you mash. If you are unsure about the punish timing just use 5A but either should work. Instant blocking this slow ass move is also really easy to make it even worse. Keep in mind this is only if he ends up right in your face after using it.

Honestly I don't really respect Kagura at all when I play against him and it works really well. His pressure has tons of holes to mash through and the move he is supposed to use to beat mashing 5D~A (the armored shoulder tackle) loses hard to 2B. He also crumbles to Rachel pressure once you get in since as soon as he blocks one of your instant overheads he has nothing he can do defensively.

[Celerity]

According to the frame data at best that move is -8. He has to cancel into a stance to do another move so there is delay that lets you mash. If you are unsure about the punish timing just use 5A but either should work. Instant blocking this slow ass move is also really easy to make it even worse. Keep in mind this is only if he ends up right in your face after using it.

6D~C is -8 on block, but it's drive cancelable, so that doesn't mean much. There is only about a 3F gap between 6D~C and 2D~C for instance, you cannot mash out of it. He also has the option of canceling into a super armor move that FCs on hit. I don't know about IB, but a lot of his drive moves will shift his hurtbox far enough away that you shouldn't be able to punish after that either, but you may be able to 2C.

[Venussail91]

I almost feel like it's better to just try and stay in and make him deal with Rachel's pressure. One zoning mistake and we eat an easy 3, 4k, possibly more if he has meter. If George recovered faster, it might work, but he recharges for so long that it doesn't seem to be good as a constant deterrent. I know the 6B sniping works, but his delays make timing tricky. In a lot of cases, I feel like I can be playing the match near perfect, then make one mistake and it's all over.

[Tari]

I haven't played this matchup much since the game came out, but I don't think mashing is actually the best response against him. It works, don't get me wrong, but if he's doing a blockstring where you can just mash and disrespect and win, then he's probably either actively decided to do something more risky than necessary or is unaware of how risky what he's doing actually is.

Just because his pressure isn't gapless doesn't somehow mean that it has 6-10 frame gaps everywhere for us to mash 5A and 2B. If you're mashing out of everything, expect him to adjust to a gameplan that doesn't involve very large frametraps. I'm fairly sure he can frametrap with his fatal guardpoint fast enough to beat out 2B, as well.

Putting that aside, his defensive options are pretty terrible. You can safejump his DP or just jump behind him when he's doing it, since there's arbitrarily a deadzone there. His 2 frame startup 'reversal' super has no invuln, so it just loses to meaties.

His pressure tends to have a reset point where he either backs off for a moment or throws a fireball at you, and many Kagura players don't deal well with players who just hold up-back and try to jump out of everything (this is likely similar to Kagura players who lose to mashing).

In general, his mixup is pretty sub-par if you barrier block, and especially unimpressive if you barrier+IB, as his only ranges are short and long, and his long ranges tend to involve cancelling into drives fairly quickly. The drives do, of course, move him towards you, but they also signal that he's going to have to make a hard stop on pressure in just a handful of moves. Obviously, be careful for his command throw and crossup, though the latter is fairly obvious if you're used to recognizing it, and the former loses to up-back.

[TD]

charge doesn't hit george at all. if george is in the middle of the battle, the chances of approach are more in our favor.

midscreen, rps a superjump/tk frog/move backward or 6b. superjump means an air pumpkin, its a little more difficult to kagura to punish this without being fairly close. tk frog is theyre turtling or there's a lull in action. backing up is for more space to summon. hold 4 if hes a charge lover, punish with 6b or superjump, do not block, its a risky rps situation there. backdash to beat some c normals/get out of range. IABD for summon shenanigans.

his big ball projectile loses to two projectile hits. l recommend george + pole seed, or 2 pole seeds. lightning and pumpkin work too if theyre needed. l wonder if 5b and 2b would work.

jumping over it too much will cause you pain if kagura anticipates it. treat it like a armored volante. hit it twice or dodge it if you must. remember, george is instantly one hit, use this tool. l think george dies though from the ball if he's hit.

[Venussail91]

I'm trying to take everything you guys are saying and I'm STILL have major issues with this matchup. Am I the only one? I quickly dropped my own method of trying to stay in his face, as that obviously didn't work out. Is it possible to be TOO defensive in this match? It's generally the approach I try to take, baiting and punishing him as my main method of handling the matchup as was noted by you guys, but could I possibly be doing it too much? Just how much aggression should we take in general in regards to this matchup?

Ugh, I haven't had this many problems with a matchup in a long time and it feels worse since people keep saying it's in our favor

[Tari]

It's a little hard for me to visualize what's going on in your matches, unfortunately. If you could upload a match replay of you versus Kagura, we might be able to better help identify some issues.

You definitely want to get in on him when possible. If you get a couple zoning tools out and can start your rtsd game, you should be pretty much golden.

[Venussail91]

Can I do that via the game's upload feature?

[TheArm05]

I'll clarify what I was saying about the whole mashing/disrespect thing. Kagura's pressure isn't frame tight and it is very easy to escape out of or slip something in between. If you aren't able to hit him out you don't have to block long drive strings unless you are in the corner just wind backdash/jump out.

They can definitely make Wyvern safe on block. Didn't know this since our Kag never did it until like this week.

That giant ball projectile shits on George. Although you can punish the stronger ball startup for free with TD if they get too predictable.

What are you getting hit by most Venussail? That is the best place to address matchup problems especially with a slower character like Kagura.

[Venussail91]

The main thing I'm getting hit by overall is his cross up, but I'm also getting hit by his huge anti-air quite a bit as well. Oh and that large horizontal swing he has. Sorry for not knowing the names.

[Tari]

I'm actually not sure how the replay stuff works in this game. I haven't played with it much. D:

His cross-up is something you'll just have to learn to react to. Pretty sure you can mash or jump out of it on reaction. His large horizontal swing is probably 5C? If you learn that spacing, you can just stuff any approaches he tries with a pumpkin there. It also doesn't have much of a vertical hitbox, so summoning in the sky at range is pretty okay.

Not sure what his huge anti-air is. Do you mean his DP? That thing demands respect, especially if you're in the air. There is a small deadzone behind him as he rises, but it's not very useful to know about. Fortunately, it's not the easiest thing for him to spam, and if he decides to do a run-up DP, he's pretty much committed to it. As long as you don't IAD forward a lot or summon dangerously, it shouldn't be too large an issue.

[Errol]

I'm actually not sure how the replay stuff works in this game. I haven't played with it much. D:

His cross-up is something you'll just have to learn to react to. Pretty sure you can mash or jump out of it on reaction. His large horizontal swing is probably 5C? If you learn that spacing, you can just stuff any approaches he tries with a pumpkin there. It also doesn't have much of a vertical hitbox, so summoning in the sky at range is pretty okay.

Not sure what his huge anti-air is. Do you mean his DP? That thing demands respect, especially if you're in the air. There is a small deadzone behind him as he rises, but it's not very useful to know about. Fortunately, it's not the easiest thing for him to spam, and if he decides to do a run-up DP, he's pretty much committed to it. As long as you don't IAD forward a lot or summon dangerously, it shouldn't be too large an issue.

his 6C is gigantic. kind of like jin's 2c/6c, but a lot bigger, horizontally and vertically.

[Tari]

Oh, that's the anti-air he's talking about, I see.

Pretty sure some careful spacing and pre-emptive pumpkin-ing or other form of zoning will still beat it. It's quite slow. I personally find his DP much more aggravating than his 6C, but again, I haven't played this match in quite some time so it may be that Kagura players are better at using it now.

[Errol]

Yeah, I haven't really played it much either. just it's big. it's another thing you need to be aware of, like how you need to zone from outside of range of wyvern, you can't be in the air too close to him either. for example start of round air pumpkin, that kind of distance, is dangerous.

[TD]

he still isnt particularly difficult to fight. most of his stronger neutral moves have more than one way of dealing with them. his pressure is similar, he either commits to stopping your mash or attempts a varied unsafe mixup. he can poke but he's no litchi or even amane.

staying one step ahead of him is key. when hes doing one thing, like setting up a ball, you should be doing another, sj pumpkin/frog. so long as you dont have to block, and even then, save burst for oki, ca for pressure and oki if available, or rps a block/mash/jump without resources.

for 6c you just dont summon. first of all youre too close anyway. as said this match should either be played fullscreen, in his face, or getting a summon out quick, preferably george so he can't wyvern freely.

[Errol]

having george out when he wyverns is so nice.

what do people use for start of round.

my main options are really

winded iad back

winded backdash

j3bd

[TD]

you cant really punish him for doing anything at this range. he can however punish you with proper reads. he can also charge any of his two moves. nothing's getting past that dp if he reads aggression.

moving back is the best course of action. passive movement is also decent, doesn't use wind and feels the player out. thats it. ld get away from this range as fast as possible.

[gli]

At round start Kagura can do a low-hitting normal that will connect at that range.

So yes, get out of that range and give yourself some space to work with.

[Justice7541]

Or you could just block it and let him be stuck with a 3c on block, which kinda sucks.