[CP] Amane vs. Iron Tager

[DerQ]

Post your thoughts about the Tager matchup here. Be as constructive as possible when discussing matchups.

Tager boards' thread
http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?18077-CP-Tager-vs-Amane-This-is-anything-but-pretty

Pros

C pokes are very reliable against Tager as he cannot dodge them or sledge through them.

2C beats his guard point that charges spark bolt.

2D beats all of his jumping options including j2C (clashes at worst)

Cons

Can't go in as it's too risky.

Drill game

Sledge is a problem preventing a lot of stuff. You can at least use 5D to create distance easily or to gatling into from C pokes.

General strategy

Patience is key. Don't jump when magnetized, you're too floaty.

[Bane]

Something neat I just discovered:

If Tager goes for gadget finger oki and follows up with a command grab, 6A, 2B, or 5B, Amane's 6B will win. In the case of Tager's command grabs and 6A, the 6B will fatal counter, and the magnetism will pull Amane in close enough for a followup combo that wouldn't be possibly otherwise.

(after what was just described) > 5B > 5C > 6C > 214B > j5B > 5B > 5C > 6C > 236A > j5C > j6C > j2C > j214B > j5B > j236C [DMG: 4405/HG: 31]

Of course, Tager can still beat it with his other normals and atomic collider, but it should still be recognized as an option Amane has for that situation.

[Eshi]

Tager's new air command throw also beats 6B. No me gusta.

[Loli Bacon]

I have very little exp. against Tager, but it seems like he can't 2C fabhop j.B pressure. He CAN backdash it, though, so just 236A j.236A j.BAA to punish it. He might be able to collider it but still unsure. Seems he has to guess CONSTANTLY as to how to hit you with Spark Bolt. 5C can hit him out of it if he thinks to do it at the end of a string, as does 2C (2C is probably safer) and then he has to guess how you're going to get around using Fabhops. Doesn't seem like a very good matchup for him, but I don't think it's terrible as of right now. C moves cause him problems.

[Eternal Blaze]

Tager's new air command throw also beats 6B. No me gusta.

Yeah just got hit by that today for trying 6B after reading Bane's post, not doing that shit again coz air 360 covers that or if you try to jump >.<

214A seems like safest option coz air 360 doesnt catch it then you can 214A/B to get more space. fabhops go really crazy when magnetized so thats at least an option to throw Tager off, seems you go up forward as opposed to closer to Tager which is kinda weird.

[Bane]

Yeah just got hit by that today for trying 6B after reading Bane's post, not doing that shit again coz air 360 covers that or if you try to jump >.<

214A seems like safest option coz air 360 doesnt catch it then you can 214A/B to get more space. fabhops go really crazy when magnetized so thats at least an option to throw Tager off, seems you go up forward as opposed to closer to Tager which is kinda weird.

Yeah, zettou seems like the best option overall. I had forgotten about Tager's air 360 when I was testing the 6B :V

[Dangaboy]

I notice alot of tagers will just randomly throw out a Spark Bolt in neutral or on wake up for free magnetism, if they're in a position to do it safely that is, but throwing out a drill (236D~A/B/C) prevents this cause it'll just nullify the projectile. This seems like a good tool in this matchup due to the fact its already hard for tager to get in and taking away one of the only fullscreen options he has is a very good thing.

[Eternal Blaze]

I notice alot of tagers will just randomly throw out a Spark Bolt in neutral or on wake up for free magnetism, if they're in a position to do it safely that is, but throwing out a drill (236D~A/B/C) prevents this cause it'll just nullify the projectile. This seems like a good tool in this matchup due to the fact its already hard for tager to get in and taking away one of the only fullscreen options he has is a very good thing.

Just be wary of the Hariken start-up, if they read it (might even be able to do it on reaction) they'll spark bolt you before the drill is even out.

This MU is a lot more annoying than I was expecting, it looked pretty free in the vids I've seen of it but I guess its different in person. Tager's backdash and his air 360 makes putting on almost any sort of pressure really hard and too risky so you basically have to be keep a 2/3 screen distance at all times or you're fucked.

[Dangaboy]

Just be wary of the Hariken start-up, if they read it (might even be able to do it on reaction) they'll spark bolt you before the drill is even out.

This MU is a lot more annoying than I was expecting, it looked pretty free in the vids I've seen of it but I guess its different in person. Tager's backdash and his air 360 makes putting on almost any sort of pressure really hard and too risky so you basically have to be keep a 2/3 screen distance at all times or you're fucked.

Well when you put it like that then maybe our main focus in this MU would be to just zone and poke with C normals. And yeah I tested the Hariken Drill vs Spark Bolt in training mode and its reactable at certain distances. So to make it useful in the MU i'd just go for knockdown, set up drill, poke with normals until you get a hit then combo if you can. And when it comes to trying to pressure I feel like fabhopping in and then canceling another fabhop out could be used to bait back dashes and then you could possibly punish with a C normal. Being up in tagers face doesn't seem very smart but if you happen to be you could do something like 2A > 2B > fabhop backward > j.C > fabhop > and then here you could go for extended pressure with a j.B but if you want to bait something you could j.2B which will counter hit Atomic Collider, make 360 attempts whiff, and if they try to backdash make sure to fabhop out cause a 360 could be coming your way.

Edit: I said Spark Bolt is easily reactable vs Hariken drill but I forgot to check diff distances on the screen. Basically the closer you are to Tager the easier it is for him to react to it. At full screen its unreactable.

[Eshi]

Hariken is also extremely useful against his super jump approach. If he does it predictably and you're spaced safely (aka not in his jB/jC range), you can lay A/B Hariken as he's coming down and he'll get stuck in the air. If he jumped into B Hariken, you get a free Gekiren unblockable. If you have 50 meter, you get a free 4.8k combo!

[DerQ]

Start of the round if you wanna play safe, just zettou twice backwards and Tager simply cannot do a thing about it.

If you want to deal with Tager using j.2C to make your anti-air whiff, 2D is a nice tool here. Tager's jump is slow and steady, so tagging him with 2D is the easiest way to deal with his j.2C or jump in general. The rewards for landing it over 6A are pretty damn bad, but preventing Tager to get a knockdown or offense going is worth more.

[Eshi]

Start of the round if you wanna play safe, just zettou twice backwards and Tager simply cannot do a thing about it.

If you want to deal with Tager using j.2C to make your anti-air whiff, 2D is a nice tool here. Tager's jump is slow and steady, so tagging him with 2D is the easiest way to deal with his j.2C or jump in general. The rewards for landing it over 6A are pretty damn bad, but preventing Tager to get a knockdown or offense going is worth more.

yeah 2D is ridiculously strong! I did some testing and there's 3 different outcomes from 2D:

1) If used really early (prediction), 2D and j2C clash 100% of the time. If Tager doesn't know about this then inputting a clash OS will counterhit him. I got it consistently with 5A, 6A might also work.

2) If used normally (reaction), 2D will straight up beat j2C. The best consistent confirm I got is 236A > jA > 7 > jA > jB > jC > j6C > j2C [1] > any zettou > j236C. It's only about 1.4k. If you have level 2 or 3 drill then you can do 236DD cancel > 5C > 6C > air combo for a lot more damage.

3) If used far too late, 2D won't become active and you'll get fatal countered. It's REALLY easy to react in time though.

Tager's position matters a bit; if he's too far then 2D only hits like once and it's impossible to follow up. If he's any amount closer then it's completely guaranteed. If you can tell you won't get close enough to hit you, use A hariken as I said above. This should help A LOT with keeping Tager the hell away from Amane.

[Beat_By-X]

What do you think about this matchup, is in favor of Amane or not ?

[TD]

amane completely and thoroughly bodies tager, getting lv 3 is too easy, moving around his gigantic ass is as easy as dodging a balloon. c normals take care of anything tager wants to do. 2d and 6a make air approach pretty much impossible. jb, 3c, and 6d make tager want to get those upgrades installed lol.

as absolutely free as this matchup is... amane pretty much auto loses if;

*he gets hit early.

*he gets magnetized and doesn't know how to deal with it.

*he uses dp/heat in general incorrectly.

he has to play perfectly. not too hard, but being perfect isn't easy within itself, and despite his dominating tools amane has to get multiple hit/block scenarios on the massive healt behemoth, while tager can realistically end the round in like, 2 hits

[DerQ]

So long as you stick to doing safe stuff at neutral, tager cannot really out maneuver you and you should be able to get a life lead and sit on it.

as absolutely free as this matchup is... amane pretty much auto loses if;

*he gets hit early.

*he gets magnetized and doesn't know how to deal with it.

*he uses dp/heat in general incorrectly.

Gets hit early: No need to rush things or take risks. Tager cannot catch Amane at the start of the round. From there, you start playing neutral.

Magnetized (And Tager's internal mechanics/pressure): This is the real only threat.

• If you are magnetized, some things will become really wonky against Tager because Amane + magnetism produces weird stuff. Don't risk yourself hitconfirming something hard if you are magnetized, it may fuck up your spacing and force you to drop a combo which usually results in Tager teching in front of you while you're recovering. Evaluating spacing on C moves becomes risky as they might change and anything too spacing specific.
  
• There's spark bolt to watch for as well, no need risking pokes and get whiffed punish in spark bolt. If anything just block it or try jumping above it, but respect it. A hariken drill can block it, if you can get one up BEFORE Tager has spark bolt, it can help a bit.
  
• Aside from that, if you do get hit into knockdown or end up blocking, knowing Tager's pressure helps avoid being stomped for one wrong guess in neutral. You can backdash some stuff like sledge. Brice gave me one piece of advice that really helps. "If Tager is doing blockstrings, he can't go for a grab so don't be scared of it". Unless Tager is going shenanigans, a blockstring outside of 5A should not go into a grab because it's harder for Tager to do so. Expect overheads, low, rapid into extended pressure (which usually makes people flinch for free).
  

Bad use of meter: I don't think that's too bad unless you mean using reversal and it gets blocked and only that. Counter assaults are nice, especially if you catch Tager after he used rapid in pressure.

There are a few more things that can go a long way in this match though:

Sledge and drills: Tager can sledge your drill/oki. If he's reacting accordingly, you can start faking him out with hariken stance or use 6D with 50 meter to rapid if you see the sledge.

Pressuring Tager: Tager is only scary once you're in his face, don't give him that chance and if you have to, you'll need to establish respect first by reducing his defensive options. Amane has enough holes in the desired pressure to allow Tager to use his cmd grab. There's no way to go into 5D from pressure that's gapless for example, leaving you open to 360 grabs. Fake being on the ground, go for safe options, watch sparkbolt, etc. You shouldn't try to win the matchup this way

Using C pokes harass: This is one of the possibilities for Tager, even if it's bad. A bad call while Tager is super jumping at you can result in him hitting you or forcing you to block. It's more than likely guessing on your part and on his part, you should instead prioritize reaction to limit his movement instead of harassing. Once Tager is in, you might just have lost and this is one of the ways he can do it.

Super jumping above him. Tager can't do too much about this, just be careful not to extend your hurtbox by doing a move while going over him. I used to do double jump > B hop forward > turnaround j.B and I would get counter air thrown. Amane's hurtbox doesn't extend if you don't press anything. If your goal is escaping the corner or going behind Tager, there's little rewards for trying to press more buttons than that.

[Eshi]

As a side nide, this match-up is going to be HELLA free once Hariken stance has projectile invulnerability. Which is good because fuck Tager.

[naikou]

As a Tager... this feels like an 8:2 in favor of Amane. Completely free. Maybe I'll figure out something with experience, but until then I'm basically hoping I live long enough to throw out a risky spark bolt. Mostly I get double-perfected against good Amanes though.

[DerQ]

The goal in 1.1 is to stay outside of his 2D range and abuse 5C. With reduced recovery, even if Tager jumps over it, you recover in time to AA or block. If he 2D, he doesn't connect.

Once Tager has sparkbolt, just be careful with it, stay in that spacing and charge your drill. You can afford being magnetized so don't sweat it too much. So long as you don't get hit

If you do end up being magnetized, staying in the same range and not pressing any buttons is desired. If Tager does 5D, you can whiff punish with 3C. If he does 2D, you can hop back into j.B and whiff punish pretty reliably.

[Eshi]

This match-up didn't change much in Extend. The only major difference I found is that Tager 6A will beat round start 214A now, just zettou again immediately and it's a non-issue. Hariken got better IMO since Amane recovers from it so much faster so he can't even sledge it if you space well enough. This is by far Amane's most favorable match-up, just don't let him touch you ever or you lose.