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Guardian

Slayer vs. Order-Sol

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OS players are usually experienced to enough to decipher where you will guard, throw or counter attack.

I'm having a bit of trouble with this line: it sounds way too "convenient" to use in your argument about how the match-up should work. Of course, in theory, the OS player should know enough about the match-up, and have enough experience, to be able to read his opponent -- but so should the Slayer player, right? Tell me what I'm reading wrong, here.

There isn't much of a comparison to make between Slayer's 2S damage and l3SV damage, but its to say its not one of Slayer's impressive combos... Oh and 2S shouldn't CH OS at that point unless OS missed an AC FRC.

Ah i see, i thought it'd be Counter Hit. Still, it may not be his most impressive combo, but that's one strike for you, and if the Slayer can convert his hits to decent combos, ideally, Order Sol should only be allowed to make a few mistakes.

(Actually, I can't imagine any decent air combo starting from 2S doing under 190 damage from full health, but I'm just estimating here, so don't quote me on that.)

Slayer's default damage comes from his 5K range, for OS to land the same damage he'd need to have Slayer near the corner and land a fafnir while standing next to Slayer (because it goes into dustloop). Do you understand now?:)

This is in reference to your "damage over range" expression, right? If so, then yeah, I see what you mean.

OS's priority are the stuff like 2S, 2D, 5K, j.P, j.H which he carries with him. Being able to use them is another story of course. Though when OS is already attacking Slayer cannot stop him with his own. At the same time OS can tag several attacks with 5K even if 5K would normally whiff(its some bs thingie); as an example Slayer's 6P comes to mind.

Hmm that's interesting, I didn't know that! I thought 5K had like... no hitbox.

Again, l1Ri is not a punisher, its too stuff, its not a solid counter measure, its about as good as SV and GB. If OS sees your 5K hanging around all of a sudden he can decide to l1Ri and he prefers to do it when you don't expect it. If you recover from 5K and did something other than BBU, DoT, 2K or IAD.H, you will eat l1Ri, guaranteed.

What about 6P? I thought 6P could beat out RI.

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You're not reading it wrong, but what you misunderstand is that OS players HAVE to know what the opponent is doing, they can do what any other player can do except better. Next to that, OS's counter or attack attempts aren't one shot attacks like most of the cast carry, that's where the second sentence referred to: he can mis a few guesses without opening himself up like nearly any other character does. And that second half is more important than that first half, he gets more chances to read your defense/offense than you do to read his defense/offense. Dunno about 6P, I should test that. Air combos I've seen from Slayer's 2S did 150ish, which is about the same as when OS is punishing Slayer's crosswire heel with fafnir+combo. Generally you have to keep in mind that there's 2 kind of uppercutters around: 1. hardcore users that know how to mix it up. 2. Desperate users. The second category is easiest to bait and counter, the first will know exactly where you won't be guarding it. Especially against the first category, always be prepared for SV and he won't be using it against you.

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I'll test it when I get home sometime to night but a 2s after a whiffed SV should lead to more damage than 150... more like 190. Also for whiffed SV don't 2s do 6hs, way more damage and if you do score the counter hit you 6hs, 5hs air combo of your choice for big damage. Towards Reavers comment about dashing fafnir, you cannot get more damage from dashing through fafnir then you could get from a CH BBU, Ch BBU on OS will lead to at the very least a combo from 6hs which will net around 200 if not more. If you time the 6hs from CH BBU right you can do 6hs, 5hs air combo that will do at least 230... so yeah much better to iB punish if you can.... and of course if you have the meter CH DOT combo will get in the upper 300s of damage. As for the rest of what you guys are talking about I have no clue.... Things I know about OS versus slayer He's hard to anti-air in certain situations. his Air HS will beat your 5p general purpose anti-air, it will not be 2s, but 2s must be done a little early or else you will get CH of course if you hit him with a ch you get free combo that will do somewhere in the neighborhood of at least 220 damage. His big airthrow range means that you have to be careful about jumping around as its easy for him to get random airthrow into knockdown into his oki OS's Oki is good, you cannot just BDC out of it for the most part as you probably won't end up getting anywhere. That being said smart BDC will stop his rushdown reset the situation in reset situations you have the advantage thanks to 5k, 2k, 2hs. Fafnir is the only thing that scares me out of 2hs. Standard slayer oki applys to OS. Just do what you do to everyone else. He ain't special, and as dps go SV is way less scary then VV so if your good at watching for VV, SV should be no problem. In my experience you can 2-hit DHD him just as easy as regular sol, which basically means jump up press slash watch for the second hit (of course note sols position) and DHD. Slayer gets hit by dustloop pretty easily : ( The part that throws me the most about this match is his awesome airthrow, decent oki, and my problems anti-airing him. I'm learning what to do in those situations though and the match is becoming less problematic. If anyone has specific instances of trouble I can try and help from my limited matchup experience. Hintalove is the OS in my area (until he goes to japan) if you all were wondering.

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What about 6P? I thought 6P could beat out RI.

There's nothing to test. 6P beats Rock It easy. The upper body invul frames render Rock It useless. Slayer has a really good 6P. I've used it to nullify I-no's air OD TK or not. It's that good.

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I really like the 6p against hos from a little less than full screen. Use it on prediction to rocket or IAD follow up with big ch combo.

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I still think SV is a piece of shit as a "Wake Up tool," and that is what i mean in my original context.. compare to other much better DP's as for using it as a Poke, that remark does not apply to it since its in a different context... but i will say this, IF Order Sol does SV and does not AC it will not net a CH 2S, if the Order Sol Planned to AC, no matter if they missed the FRC or the AC have not started up, it will be CH... the point isn't about dmg out put for Slayer after 2S, the Point is, "I hit you with a combo, it dealt its purpose, i knocked you down, i can Okizeme you" its just that... that is SL's game right there... its not about who can output most dmg here.. its about me scoring the combo and knockdown, and its still in my favor at this point... as for 6P beating RI, it beats it, nets a CH, and can lead to combo which will end up in corner and repeat Okizeme. 6P sometimes can go through bursts... lol... sometimes iad JH will not hit RI, if youtime the jH a little late... its wierd... but o wells.. Right now argument feels that if ur in neutral and HOS gets momentum... i am more just elaborating when you get ur knockdown, SL just does what he does, but keep in mind of his wake up options Obviously if people say Rock beats scissors or paper beats rock , so on and so forth this can go on forever... Just IN general, SL options is to knock the HoS down, start his Okizeme, and everything else is how tricky can the SL be to net his hits in, and then HoS will just die, or run away, etc etc.. as far as i seen, or played, against HoS they like to Tick throw a lot, but soemtimes its one of those things where you have to anticipate it, or you gona end up jumping and they air throw you or anti air or watever... Also just refering to the part on, IF we slayers have to keep in mind about ur SV, it can be used against us, well then so be it, but if i keep my mind about it, it just means wouldn't the Slayer use safe pokes and okizeme options, unless the SL is just going on Auto Pilot, its the Order Sol's risk to test if the Slayer is paying attention or not... really... i will still mention that any random SV missed or blocked is pretty risky against SL, if you get it to hit, then yea, great you get ur momentum, but if you miss, then, a good Slayer wont hesitate to hit you out of ur action charge or what not, before you even have a chance to AC it... Just a side note: i hope i did not offend any Order Sol player with my remarks, but i am only giving my 2 cents, and some of these remarks as Order Sol's DP is a piece of shit, i got that from my Order Sol friend :V... lolz.. and after playing countless times, in that context, it does feel futile... lolz...

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I'll test it when I get home sometime to night but a 2s after a whiffed SV should lead to more damage than 150... more like 190.

Also for whiffed SV don't 2s do 6hs, way more damage and if you do

What about 5K,2K,2S,2D RC 5H IAD.H, 5H sj.H->D2K->K 5K j.S2K->K, dj.K2K->D ? I remember this being very painful:P

6H is AC FRC SV stuffable, so stick with 2S.

As for Hintalove or any OS player, he doesn't play like the next you'd encounter. There's for example several different OSs in Japan and their styles are completely different. The way one OS would deal with the situation will not be the same as the other. Keep that in mind.

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Right now argument feels that if ur in neutral and HOS gets momentum... i am more just elaborating when you get ur knockdown, SL just does what he does, but keep in mind of his wake up options

This is the main point in this arguement.

Reaver - I will test what you said about 6hs not punishing stormviper ac but I'm pretty sure if you block a stormviper you get it for free action charge or not but I'm not 100% so who knows..... if not Still 2s combos as zaido said.

As to your what about blah blah blah towards punishing fafnir That combo uses 50% tension in the context I posted where you ib the fafnir you could just do ch dot and get wayyyy more damage than what you posted for the same amount of tension. Also off of ch BBU you can get a simlar combo to the one you posted after the 6hs hits as long as your timing is correct.

Also I realize that OS play differently, but you guys still have to do some similar things. All OS's have the same basic tools and will use them... I just posted I play against Hinta so people will know I'm not just talking out my ass as to my experience against HOS.

Also why are all the order sol players even in here if they are just trying argue that there character is so powerful and will rock slayers face with Storm Vipers?

This is not helpful to the actual match up. At least other people are posting what to look for an OS doing and what you can try and do to beat it.

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i actually don't mind having another perspective on how HoS will try to Rock Slayers face, since you can find counter tactics to it, but right now, just saying rock beats scissors or scissors beats paper right now is hard to actually say, i will do this to beat your this in actual match cause not every time everything will be in neutral stand point, and not guaranteed any of these outcome will turn the way you want it too most of the time anyways... i would actually like to hear actual people playing against actual people experience and how things turn out that way since it helps people visualize. IF the discussion would go toward this direction more, it will actually help these match up discussion threads..

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Also I realize that OS play differently, but you guys still have to do some similar things. All OS's have the same basic tools and will use them... I just posted I play against Hinta so people will know I'm not just talking out my ass as to my experience against HOS.

Everyone does similiar things. There isn't some absolute different playstyle. Sol players will always uses GF FRC. Slayer player's will use BDC.

Also why are all the order sol players even in here if they are just trying argue that there character is so powerful and will rock slayers face with Storm Vipers?

Hey I'm just saying SV is an option O.Sol can use to deal with pokes. It's not some SLayer crushing strategy. O.Sol is strong but he isn't as powerful as Slayer.

As for using SV as a wake up option; I wouldn't advise it against Slayer. With Slayer's meaty attacks and BDC SV isn't a good option IMO. Slayer can throw out a meaty or BDC since SV is 12F on startup.

If you want to terrify an O.Sol player always buffer DOT. If he even uses a poke or a special and you do DOT that's a free CH right there.

What I find odd about fighting Slayer is that there isn't a direct gameplan against him. It's more of a series of trial and error. There's basics on what to use but beyond that it's really shady.

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What I find odd about fighting Slayer is that there isn't a direct gameplan against him. It's more of a series of trial and error. There's basics on what to use but beyond that it's really shady.

QFT. Slayer's a shady mofo with all his mappa feint and 6K feint and 5D feint and like 6HS FRC and dash and shit.

Shit.

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Everyone does similiar things. There isn't some absolute different playstyle. Sol players will always uses GF FRC. Slayer player's will use BDC.

yeah, I know, its what I was saying. It was sort of just a response to reavers comment. I also was just using SV thing as an example, it just didn't seem like people were talking about actual problamatic situations they were just saying as zaido pointed out, a rock beats scissor kind of thing and not really talking about actual matchup stuff.

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I'll give it a shot. Tell me what you guys think. -Basic plan: Get a knockdown to limit O.Sol's mobility. DO NOT think just because you have more range you can freely use it. That's like playing Chipp and thinking you can win because you're faster. -Pokes:5K,2K,2S,6K and 6K feint. I would say at real close range use 2P. -AA: Airthrow,2S,6P, BBU(if he strikes first mainly). -Mappa beats a lot of O.Sol's pokes and it beats Fafnir. Mappa loses to SV, TR, SF. -2HS works if you're opponet is low attack happy that's why O.Sol players started the whole jumping around gameplay. -Rock It pressure: Learn to SB RI lvl.1. Why? Free damage. And it weakens one of O.Sol's pressure tools. Or you can use 2D for a CH and RC into your combo of choice. -Dealing with SV: SV can work if you use your normals a lot to attempt with zone O.Sol. So don't. Naturally use fast pokes. -Slayer has a good airthrow IMO and you should use it. It is possible to beat O.Sol's j.HS like this if you're willing to give up a chance for better damage. -Dealing with 2HS. Backdash it. Or beat it with a poke. Which poke I'm not sure which poke but it can be done. -Do use Slayer's command bite. -It's possible to slam O.Sol with 5HS if you see he's about to jump. -IB BHB. -BRP:It doesn't have awesome priority and it's punishable on hit(lvl.1). 6P or 2S. If he tries it as near or max range 6P/DOT/BBU. IB lvl.2/3 last hit. Or if you can SB the last lvl.3 hit for free damage. -If you get hit with a SV lvl.1 tech and get back in his face as fast you can. -If O.Sol uses 6P on your wake up 2K. -Mappa Feint loses to 2S. -Pile Bunker beats everything except for SF and TR. It'll destroy SV/BHB/GB/RI and his pokes. -I wouldn't advise using 214S. O.Sol can beat it with 2S.

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its SV AC FRC, not SV AC, SV AC is asking for immediate death. 6H simply is too slow to counter SV AC FRC on reaction. And the OS players are here to help you deal with the matchup and to help understand what they are actually doing against you. Not every OS will SV you out of the blue, some will just to make sure you're paying attention. Not every OS will GB your air attacks or 5K, some will just to make sure you keep your head to it. Its all those kind of things, they don't have to happen but they CAN happen.

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I believe 2p beats OS 2hs if OS is doing it in the middle of poke strings. That of course then leads to 2p,2k,2d or something similar.

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There's lots of things that can beat OS's 2H outside strings, that's why its barely used outside strings.

I didn't say 2p beats 2hs outside of strings I said inside of OS strings.

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If you know its coming perhaps, if you're in the corner and just mashing 2P you can eat l1Ri which goes to dustloop there XD

yeah and if I know your going to do lvl 1 ri I can kill your face with dot. But thats not whats important! The poster above me said slayer could beat 2hs with certain moves and I said 2p was fast enough. Cause it is. Stop with this I know, you know, that I know, so I do this and it wins crap.

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thx for the responses so far.

so Tsak, there is some unmentioned property of RI's hitbox that's not mentioned in the frame data -- like, some kinda brief low/foot invincibility? (btw, what do you mean by "mega borked" :?: )

Hatred Edge: right, so except for Slayer's 2H, Order Sol's 2S will beat out several attacks. However, reaVer said "and several others" -- what are those other ones?

borked as in whack/broke

its weird

ive done it atleast like 6 times

but i have alot more success with just a dash up right when a 2H comes out

its something that has to do with his hitbox in his feet

kinda like how when he does standing faultless and slidehead just whiffs

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Damn this shit blew the fuck up in just a few days

How is it that you people kept all these repressed strats for so long lol

Mostly arguing imo.

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