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Guardian

Slayer vs. Order-Sol

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OMG what a cheap bastard. All the general anti-airs work against any IAD attempts, and 5k can only keep him at bay for so long. When he gets in, how do you stop him from poking and jumping everywhere like a crackhead on fire? Discuss.

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2S is pretty good for stuffing jump-ins, you just have to be real keen on watching for them. If you let him in: block and FD? WATCH FOR THE TICK THROWS. If I remember correctly, 2H works pretty well against him as well. You should wait for Zaido's reply on this, since he plays against a HoS all the time. (And imho, Slayer is the cheap bastard in the matchup...HoS is just annoying)

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Guardian: Order-Sol is a cheap bastard? The matchup is all in Slayers favor! -Better pokes -Safer pokes -More range -Better mixup -Easier damage options -Slayer's j.HS crushes all of Order-Sol's AA moves -Slayer has much better AAs. -Strong oki game -Every combo ends in a knockdown. Everything Order-Sol does, Slayer does better.

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Slayer does have Better Pokes then Order Sol And Order Sol has very few reliable wake up options other then block.. 2H works to an extent, but since order Sol jump is LOW, and he is fast, and his jH is pretty good air to ground, he can easily bitch slap you as he jumps up.. Since he jumps low, reaction 2S is not that reliable as far as i seen since i get CH out of it almost all the time, or what not.. once Order Sol Gets momentum, ur best advice is just to block it out and watch out for tick throws. once you knock order sol down, just start ur okizeme, since order sol players do know that their uppercut is a piece of shit, and if they get it blocked they gona die by a 2S and get a combo hit and put back to the floor. dandy step against Order Sol is not good cause he can fafiner ur legs for free, 2H can beat Fafiner but i only got taht to work once, so other then that Fafiner so far can straight out beat it. dont reckless jump or you gona eat a 5H or GunBlaze Since ORDER SOL jumps are low, he has pretty nasty high lows so got to watch out for that. Hatred Edge: Even if he WAS or IS a Slayer player it doesn't mean All Slayer players won't call their own characters CHEAP... and READ what he wrote once again... since he by all means didn't Say HOS is CHEAP he said HOS is Annoying, which is viable to an extent.

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You can punish fafnir on block if you IB it. BBU or DOT are both easy and get CHs. If you are looking for it, you can IB on reaction to the flash.

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Fafnir only beats 2HS if you do 2HS first such that your lower body invincibility runs out before it becomes active (thus his lower body inv. will still be intact and keep him from being hit by 2HS and you get hit by Fafnir). If the characters do their moves at the same time or you do 2HS after Fafnir start up, you will beat it out. More later on this, might copy/paste some stuff from the HOS forum. I hate this matchup, btw.

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Regarding 2S reaction time... Zaido I know what you're saying. That's why I spend a good chunk of my attention focusing on anti-air opportunities. It is very hard to 2S that j.HS, but definitely possible.

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You can punish fafnir on block if you IB it. BBU or DOT are both easy and get CHs. If you are looking for it, you can IB on reaction to the flash.

so if you instant block its free BBU?

what if the roder sol player does another

or does he not have enough time?

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Fafnir is -10 when IBed. BBU impacts on frame 10, so it's free, though an extremely tight punish since it's a 1-frame punish. DOT impacts in 7 so that's an easy punish and much better payoff if it's a CH. Note that even if Fafnir is blocked normally, it's -6, so were you to try another Fafnir and the Slayer player did either BBU or DOT, you'd eat it.

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When I said a cheap bastard, I was talking about HOS. However, before last week, I had ZERO experience with this matchup. So, playing a HOS player who knows the slayer matchup made the matches very frustrating for me. Just because slayer is the better character doesn't mean Order-Sol isn't cheap in his own right. I'm learning alot from what TB and Zaido are posting though. Let's keep the talk going.

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Fafnir is -10 when IBed. BBU impacts on frame 10, so it's free, though an extremely tight punish since it's a 1-frame punish. DOT impacts in 7 so that's an easy punish and much better payoff if it's a CH.

Note that even if Fafnir is blocked normally, it's -6, so were you to try another Fafnir and the Slayer player did either BBU or DOT, you'd eat it.

Weird cause as long as I get the IB I can do it everytime... I think because you are reversing from block and taking buffer into account it becomes much easier.

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If you can IB fafnir you can probably dash it(because you know its coming, which is more or less a requirement for IB outside a string) and that forward dash goes into a lot more hurt than a standalone BBU would ever do.

once Order Sol Gets momentum, ur best advice is just to block it out and watch out for tick throws.

Once OS gets momentum you die, this applies for any character facing OS.

once you knock order sol down, just start ur okizeme, since order sol players do know that their uppercut is a piece of shit, and if they get it blocked they gona die by a 2S and get a combo hit and put back to the floor.

You are dreaming, do random shit like 6K and you'll get a one way ticket upwards. And remember, Slayer's attacks are not the quickest of the lot, OS can distinguish between guard, 2K(not uppercuttable) and any other attack, afaik even a mistimed 6[K] will net you a SV against you, unless you're playing an even more unsafe asshole who will gunblaze. Next to that, I've yet to see 2S lead to significant harm I can't inflict myself when waking up with a l3SV. Don't forget the purpose SV serves though, its to make you wait and that makes it his ticket out of okizeme, so its a mixup run by OS, not by you.

I do not agree that Slayer has better attacks. Comparing Slayer's pokes with OS's pokes is like comparing something with nothing. OS will not be zoning you unless he's a fool asking for trouble. Generally what OS has over Slayer is priority, Slayer has the best damage over range. If for whatever reason however, OS manages to l3, the damage over range is leveled, so you will most likely be fucked. So there's kinda two choices: 1. try to rush OS down which prevents him from hurting you a lot in one go, but he will most likely beat any attack attempt with his own; or 2. Stay away, which means he'll charge to level 3 and he will be able to inflict the damage he needs on you. Though I do say that OS has to see which one you're doing, OS has to counter your game with either of these choices or run away from you all together(which allows you to chase and lock him down). So if you mixup between offensive and defensive properly OS would fail to comprehend what he should be doing.

Counters OS has against Slayer:

l1Ri after any whiffed poke from Slayer, OS's free ticket unless Slayer has a DoT ready. The only things that (might) counter this is crosswire heel, BBU and DoT.

l1Ri if plain 2H expected, don't be predictable with the 2Hs or you'll eat it.

Early GB against DoT and against air attacks.

Though for air attacks OS can usually intercept and win, if you're j.K wins he's doing it wrong. If you're trying to counter with j.H or other BS you're begging for GB or 5H. Guarding in air will set you up for an airthrow.

Sweep goes under a lot of Slayer's crap: 5K, Mappas, Dandysteps, 5S(c&f), 2S, 6H. Does not win against 2K, 2H and 5H.

Save for 2H (and several others), OS's 2S will stuff nearly anything Slayer has given its in range.

As for the immediate j.H OS could be using, he's fishing for a counterhit and he won't be converting it anywhere except for in the corner, where it goes to dustloop. Outside OS generally should never use immediate j.H as it is 6P AAable by Slayer. But do not run the risk in the corner, conversion hurts Slayer for Slayer damage no matter what level OS is on.

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l1SV has 12f of startup, l2SV has 10, l3SV has 8. Compared to Sol's 5f startup on VV, Its super easy to set up a safe 6k oki on OS. So lets assume you're waking up with a reversal l3SV, all you have to do is time your meaty 6k to hit within 8 frames of OS getting up since he doesnt actually HIT you until the 9th frame. If you do it right he will go flying up begging you to eat up 50% of his life for free, if he screws up the reversal timing you get to eat him up for 25% tension via 6k->2k->2h->BBU. Win-win for slayer. Reaver, you need to find a new slayer if you've never seen 2s CH translate into some big damage. What wiffed slayer poke are you punishing with l1RI :?: thats a lot of startup. I really dont feel like typing about the rest of your lulzy post on my phone at work, but OS has to work really hard in this matchup. Slayer does everything OS does better, except move around, but OS is always moving in on slayer so who cares

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No, he hits on 8th with l3SV, framedata startups list the frame it hits on. Wait... are you forgetting the 12 frame invincibility OS has on his storm vipers? Sigh, even the slayers I played didn't forget that... WTF are you babbling? And I mentioned counters, l1Ri stuffs any poke that follows a whiffed poke(ignoring the exceptions mentioned), and its one of OS's free tickets in. I don't really care what you do with what I just said, if you think all this is lulzy and bullshit, I gave you a game OS plays against Slayer and I gave you something that allows you to understand OS on how he deals with Slayer. You can use it, ask for clarifications or ignore it, I don't care. Oh, and FYI, l3SV(and certain l2SV) goes into dustloop which racks up about 200ish or more against Slayer.

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Posting incorrect shit does not help anyone. Of course a dp is invincible during startup, but slayer can 6k land and block before the invincibility matters.

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I really dont feel like typing about the rest of your lulzy post on my phone at work

this doesn't qualify as discussion, please cut it out. if you don't want to "[type] about the rest", then don't, but you don't have to deride his post.

reaVer: when you say something like: "if Order Sol gets momentum, you die, and that's just the way it is," could you substantiate that statement? don't forget that this is a discussion thread, so some of the people reading this are not going to have any clue what you mean.

i have to agree with what sogos said above, regarding your comment about 6K, though. Slayer's 6K has 4 frames of recovery in total, so as long as Slayer is timing his 6K to hit with its late, active frames, and even if Order Sol has Level 3 charge, Slayer really does have a decent amount of leeway if he messes up his timing a bit.

on the other hand, just randomly throwing out a 6K during a block string could get you in trouble, but that's not what was initially brought up.

I've yet to see 2S lead to significant harm I can't inflict myself when waking up with a l3SV.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say. Certainly l3SV hurts a lot, but we're talking about using 2S to punish Order Sol after Slayer blocks SV -- and presumably it's only level 1 or 2, since I don't know for sure if Slayer can safely attack with 2S before the "kickdown" of l3SV. What is the comparison you're trying to make?

also, if you don't mind me asking about something else you said:

I do not agree that Slayer has better attacks. Comparing Slayer's pokes with OS's pokes is like comparing something with nothing. OS will not be zoning you unless he's a fool asking for trouble. Generally what OS has over Slayer is priority, Slayer has the best damage over range. If for whatever reason however, OS manages to l3, the damage over range is leveled, so you will most likely be fucked. So there's kinda two choices: 1. try to rush OS down which prevents him from hurting you a lot in one go, but he will most likely beat any attack attempt with his own; or 2. Stay away, which means he'll charge to level 3 and he will be able to inflict the damage he needs on you. Though I do say that OS has to see which one you're doing, OS has to counter your game with either of these choices or run away from you all together(which allows you to chase and lock him down). So if you mixup between offensive and defensive properly OS would fail to comprehend what he should be doing.

i didn't understand your phrase: "best damage over range" -- could you define/explain it? (i have a rough idea, but i haven't heard that expression before, so i'd just like to see some clarification.)

By itself, the first two sentences don't have much substance to them, but referring to "what OS has over Slayer is priority," I'm led to believe that you're claiming that Order Sol's attacks are better than Slayer because (in general?) he has higher priority. Is this correct? The reason I ask is because, although I think I see where you're coming from, I don't entirely agree based on some experience with the match-up. Would you be able to give some specific examples?

Actually, regarding the "counters" you mentioned -- some of them didn't seem to make sense, without some more context.

- l1Ri after any whiffed poke from Slayer: how much reaction time are you factoring in? Are you saying that you can react to a whiffed poke with l1Ri in say... 8, 9 frames? or 15, 16 frames? Because depending on how fast your reactions are, I don't think you'll be able to do l1Ri after "any" whiffed poke.

- l1Ri if plain 2H expected: how much "expectation" are you including in this statement? aren't there other counters for Order Sol to use against plain 2H, if it's expected?

- Save for 2H (and several others), OS's 2S will stuff nearly anything Slayer has given its in range: saying that 2S will stuff "nearly anything Slayer has", except for "2H (and several others)," doesn't sound like a convincing reason for why 2S is so good. did you mean to say it a bit differently?

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since OS's hit box is mega borked if an OS player can predict 2H's really good if he starts to dash the 2H will whiff this gives the OS player time to do things i believe l1Ri does this too if i remember correctly tho its really hard to do its gotta be like mega predictable

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i have to agree with what sogos said above, regarding your comment about 6K, though. Slayer's 6K has 4 frames of recovery in total, so as long as Slayer is timing his 6K to hit with its late, active frames, and even if Order Sol has Level 3 charge, Slayer really does have a decent amount of leeway if he messes up his timing a bit.

on the other hand, just randomly throwing out a 6K during a block string could get you in trouble, but that's not what was initially brought up.

If Slayer uses 6K and O.Sol wants to beat it he's better off using 5S instead of SV. Between the 6K feint, the range, and the recovery, SV vs 6K is too risky. So much so I would advise against it.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say. Certainly l3SV hurts a lot, but we're talking about using 2S to punish Order Sol after Slayer blocks SV -- and presumably it's only level 1 or 2, since I don't know for sure if Slayer can safely attack with 2S before the "kickdown" of l3SV. What is the comparison you're trying to make?

Any attack with good upper body invul frames with beat the last kick of Lvl.3 SV. It lacks priority. You can BBU it if you want to be sadistic.

referring to "what OS has over Slayer is priority," I'm led to believe that you're claiming that Order Sol's attacks are better than Slayer because (in general?) he has higher priority. Is this correct?

Slayer has the range and his pokes in general are safer but O.Sol has the speed and can make all his strings +Fs on block or just safe. I say whoever is on the offensive fares better with their pokes. So I wouldn't say O.Sol's normals are better than Slayer's normals in general. It's all about who's rushing down here.

- l1Ri after any whiffed poke from Slayer: how much reaction time are you factoring in? Are you saying that you can react to a whiffed poke with l1Ri in say... 8, 9 frames? or 15, 16 frames? Because depending on how fast your reactions are, I don't think you'll be able to do l1Ri after "any" whiffed poke.

Lvl.1 RI has 16F startup i.e. it's really that fast. Factor in the startup and distance RI has to cover vs Slayer's pokes and I HIGHLY doubt you're gonna catch a free RI on Slayer. Not to mention if Slayers SB's Rock it, that's O.Sol's ass. Your open to whatever Slayer chooses to do. Even more disturbing is that is Slayer whiffs a pokes and O.Sol is actually wild enough to think he can punish with RI, Slayer can stuff RI with various pokes, crush it with BBU/DOT/IAD j.HS. Unless Slayer is doing a poke like 6HS(highly unlikely) there's a really small chance of O.Sol punishing with Rock It.

- l1Ri if plain 2H expected: how much "expectation" are you including in this statement?

Slayer will at first use 2HS to beat Order-Sol's close range pokes but this strategy won't last long vs any good O. Sol. So Slayer simply subtracts 2HS usage and bam. He's safer.

aren't there other counters for Order Sol to use against plain 2H, if it's expected?

Other counters include: j.HS for a CH, SV, Fafnir. Lately, actually for quite some time now, from what I've seen and experienced it's not easy to land Rock It against Slayer's 2HS because a good Slayer tends to adapt to that strategy rather quickly thus removing that window of attack for O.Sol. If anyone has been watching vids/playing this matchup you know what I mean. Obviously since AC was released O.Sol players haven't been landing as many Fafnirs as they used to since their opponents have (assuming)gotten better.

- Save for 2H (and several others), OS's 2S will stuff nearly anything Slayer has given its in range: saying that 2S will stuff "nearly anything Slayer has", except for "2H (and several others)," doesn't sound like a convincing reason for why 2S is so good. did you mean to say it a bit differently?

I find that Order-Sol's 2S is great vs standing attacks. VS crouching attacks it's good.

IIRC O.Sol's 2S was toned down from XXS. Odd but true: Slayer's 2S CAN beat crouching normals. It's happened to me before. Not often but it can happened. I wouldn't go as for as to say 2S beats everything Slayer has when within range but 2S vs Slayer is good. Once the O.Sol has gotten Slayer to shy away from using 2HS.

RE:O.Sol's SV being shitty. NOT TRUE AT ALL. Far from true to be exact. With SV O.Sol can deal with pokes his normals cannot. That means he can ruin your zoning game. And it gets better. Eventhough lvl.1 SV even on CH won't hit you out far chances are O.Sol will be closer to you than he was before. To take it even further with 25% tension AC FRC after SV and he's near lvl.3. With charge keep and tension he can be on lvl.3 in no time. SO while you might say the damage isn't that great if on level 1, if it gets blocked that's O.Sol's ass, and it isn't as fast as Sol's VV it does alot more than just beat a poke here and there. If you think "well, I'll just play to bait SV then" O.Sol will get more windows to get in because as long as you use normals you're risking eating a SV.

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thx for the responses so far. so Tsak, there is some unmentioned property of RI's hitbox that's not mentioned in the frame data -- like, some kinda brief low/foot invincibility? (btw, what do you mean by "mega borked" :?: ) Hatred Edge: right, so except for Slayer's 2H, Order Sol's 2S will beat out several attacks. However, reaVer said "and several others" -- what are those other ones?

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What Tsak is talking about is some weird thing that happens with O.Sol/Sol. I can't really get it down. An example would be with Sol. I run in, Slayer does 2HS, I land a Wild Throw. Then sometimes eventhough I'm in the same exact range I'll eat a CH 2HS. I suspect it might just as O.Sol/Sol stops but it's kinda random so I can't really practice it. Rock It is odd. If you look at the animation O.Sol's upper body extends out more than his lower body. This is why standing attacks beat Rock It. However it is possible for O.Sol to evade lows if his lower body is out of range while his upper body is in hitting range. I have punished crouching moves with Rock It before. An example would be vs Johnny's or Venom's 2D. If too close 2D or in Slayer's case 2HS, O. Sol will get his foot hit. However timed right even if 2D or Slayer's 2HS is already out and possibly starting to go into recovery, Rock It can hit them if O. Sol's foot is out of range. It's akin to Millia's 6K. That's why Rock It can beat Pot's Slide Head. As for what other attacks Reaver is talking about I would say 5S, 2S, obviously 5P, 2P. I'm not sure about 2K and I suspect 6Hs covers too much range and it hit crouchers/crouching attacks i.e Sol's GV and O.Sol's GB.

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When OS gains momentum is the moment his mixups will start hitting, OS players are usually experienced to enough to decipher where you will guard, throw or counter attack. Adding to that, if they guessed wrongly they don't actually lose momentum most of the time since their attacks go to -1 at guard at worst unless they like taking risks they don't have to and then they might get -6 or -10 at worst. And if you think you can escape... OS is often able to employ one attack and then still counter your options. Perhaps a little hard to explain, but you can remember it like this: "OS without momentum = easy, OS with momentum = hard". Fortunately for you OS doesn't gain momentum per se with every attack opportunity he has, he needs a little magic for that. Unfortunately, as much as a random SV is enough to make him gain that momentum. There isn't much of a comparison to make between Slayer's 2S damage and l3SV damage, but its to say its not one of Slayer's impressive combos... Oh and 2S shouldn't CH OS at that point unless OS missed an AC FRC. Slayer's default damage comes from his 5K range, for OS to land the same damage he'd need to have Slayer near the corner and land a fafnir while standing next to Slayer (because it goes into dustloop). Do you understand now?:) OS's priority are the stuff like 2S, 2D, 5K, j.P, j.H which he carries with him. Being able to use them is another story of course. Though when OS is already attacking Slayer cannot stop him with his own. At the same time OS can tag several attacks with 5K even if 5K would normally whiff(its some bs thingie); as an example Slayer's 6P comes to mind. The 2S thing with all its details is the situational thing OS has, so I kinda start keeping it in mind everywhere I type it. 2S does beat a lot, but some attacks can BS it, which are the ones that either tag it like OS's 5K does to Slayer's 6P or attacks that avoid it. Again, l1Ri is not a punisher, its too stuff, its not a solid counter measure, its about as good as SV and GB. If OS sees your 5K hanging around all of a sudden he can decide to l1Ri and he prefers to do it when you don't expect it. If you recover from 5K and did something other than BBU, DoT, 2K or IAD.H, you will eat l1Ri, guaranteed. Now if you did BBU and he didn't do l1Ri, guess what happens... DoT is usually punishable in that context, 2K is fafnir, 2H able or OS can decide to just run in to his own 2S range and IAD.H means a GB or a j.P in your face. On top of this, if l1Ri was guarded when it wasn't expected(thus not slashbacked), OS got his ticket into close range which is where he is dominant over Slayer. l1Ri against 2H, 2H is simply a noobtactic employed which can anger a lot of people that don't know how to deal with it(fafnir does not hit it for CH guaranteed). With l1Ri it even goes as far that if you are in the corner, and you did 2H and OS did l1Ri, you eat dustloop. In the corner, l1Ri is the other j.H. HE: I don't think 5S could hit OS doing 2S tbh, but again, not sure. 5P is too high to hit OS doing 2S.

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