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BlazBlue: Remix Heart & Variable Heart Discussion

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I meant to say that I had the impression that the win quotes were written before Mai's arcade mode and without full consideration of VH--arcade mode being a completely different thing that was written with VH in mind. Act 3 win quotes change a lot even to suit small things, but yet Mai doesn't fully recognize the bearer of the Azure Grimoire? Platinum only gets a dime a dozen small breasts joke instead of finding Mai remotely familiar? Even Mai just says she sympathizes with Platinum because of the girl/thing with Luna and Sena.

On a different note, I appreciate Variable Heart for showing Ragna as an antagonist. I felt like BB failed to put its money where its mouth was regarding Ragna's criminal activities, and even backtracked on him killing people, so this is nice to see.

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On 1/17/2017 at 10:51 PM, deaddestspike said:

I meant to say that I had the impression that the win quotes were written before Mai's arcade mode and without full consideration of VH--arcade mode being a completely different thing that was written with VH in mind. Act 3 win quotes change a lot even to suit small things, but yet Mai doesn't fully recognize the bearer of the Azure Grimoire? Platinum only gets a dime a dozen small breasts joke instead of finding Mai remotely familiar? Even Mai just says she sympathizes with Platinum because of the girl/thing with Luna and Sena.

I think that's more an issue with the win quotes in general as opposed to Variable Heart specifically. Those examples are far from the worst for not making sense. Just look at all of Es's quotes. They seem to imply that Es doesn't have any of her memories since she keeps getting search terms related to XBlaze that do not compute but story mode explicitly says she remembers those precious to her. Also Nine seems has absolutely no issue trying to murder her first and closest friend (although Es's quote against her at least implies she knows since Es says her eyes look sad). I wouldn't be surprised if the win quotes were written by some of the supporting writers without Mori ever looking at them. However, I will disagree with you on Platinum finding Mai familiar. Platinum should not remember Mai at all. Bell is a different soul from Luna and Sena and according to Jubei and Trinity's explanation, was lost before Luna and Sena entered her body. Luna and Sena don't have anything that should make Mai familiar to them.

On 1/17/2017 at 10:51 PM, deaddestspike said:

On a different note, I appreciate Variable Heart for showing Ragna as an antagonist. I felt like BB failed to put its money where its mouth was regarding Ragna's criminal activities, and even backtracked on him killing people, so this is nice to see.

To be fair, CF undid that backtracking hard. When Kagura lists off Ragna's crimes in story mode, he says Ragna is responsible for a LOT of deaths (it was either 2000 or 20000, I can't remember which). Even if they removed the implication that he went around intentionally slaughtering people, that's still pretty damn villainous.

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On 18/01/2017 at 4:51 AM, deaddestspike said:

Even Mai just says she sympathizes with Platinum because of the girl/thing with Luna and Sena.

What were you expecting from Mai's win quote? It makes it obvious that Mai knows who Platinum is; there was had no need for some flowery exposition about their past relationship. And Platinum has no memories of Mai; it makes sense for her not to say something specific about her. As for Ragna and Mai, one might expect them to remember each other better, but the fact they don't isn't some sort of plot hole. Ragna's system voice doesn't remember what Hibiki's name is.

On 20/01/2017 at 1:37 AM, Ogiga99 said:

To be fair, CF undid that backtracking hard. When Kagura lists off Ragna's crimes in story mode, he says Ragna is responsible for a LOT of deaths (it was either 2000 or 20000, I can't remember which). Even if they removed the implication that he went around intentionally slaughtering people, that's still pretty damn villainous.

Maybe Es is confused because she doesn't understand why these people remind her of people she knows. It makes sense for Es not to know who Nine and Celica are though; the fact Es has blue eyes means she still has the Embryo inside her, which indicates that she traveled to CF after the events in Code Embryo but before those in Lost Memories. The Es in CF had yet to meed Nine and Celica.

The deaths allegedly caused by Ragna must have been part of the fake history created by the Embryo rather than something he really did. When Kagura talks about Ragna's crimes in the arcade mode he only mentions people injured.

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3 hours ago, Leiopelma said:

What were you expecting from Mai's win quote? It makes it obvious that Mai knows who Platinum is; there was had no need for some flowery exposition about their past relationship. And Platinum has no memories of Mai; it makes sense for her not to say something specific about her. As for Ragna and Mai, one might expect them to remember each other better, but the fact they don't isn't some sort of plot hole. Ragna's system voice doesn't remember what Hibiki's name is.

Maybe Es is confused because she doesn't understand why these people remind her of people she knows. It makes sense for Es not to know who Nine and Celica are though; the fact Es has blue eyes means she still has the Embryo inside her, which indicates that she traveled to CF after the events in Code Embryo but before those in Lost Memories. The Es in CF had yet to meed Nine and Celica.

The deaths allegedly caused by Ragna must have been part of the fake history created by the Embryo rather than something he really did. When Kagura talks about Ragna's crimes in the arcade mode he only mentions people injured.

Apparently Es was created by the Azure. She didn't have her weapon prior to the events of Lost Memories.

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17 hours ago, Leiopelma said:

The deaths allegedly caused by Ragna must have been part of the fake history created by the Embryo rather than something he really did. When Kagura talks about Ragna's crimes in the arcade mode he only mentions people injured.

I don't know. The whole thing about Ragna allegedly killing people always was pretty vague, but c'mon, the dude's moniker is literally Grim Reaper/God of Death! It's not a name you'd earn with zero bodycount.

Honestly, I always thought that the story's attitude towards Ragna's past crimes is a bit of a cop-out. "Look, our grim and angry anti-hero never really killed anyone! It's okay to root for him, kids!"

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20 hours ago, In&Out said:

I don't know. The whole thing about Ragna allegedly killing people always was pretty vague, but c'mon, the dude's moniker is literally Grim Reaper/God of Death! It's not a name you'd earn with zero bodycount.

Honestly, I always thought that the story's attitude towards Ragna's past crimes is a bit of a cop-out. "Look, our grim and angry anti-hero never really killed anyone! It's okay to root for him, kids!"

You could argue that the name was the result of NOL propaganda trying to make their enemy look worse than he really was.

But I agree that it's a little too convenient that Ragna was able to disable so many soldiers in battle without any of them dying and that destroying all those facilities also didn't result in any deaths. I too think that they did it in order to make him less morally objectionable, even though it doesn't really fit the character very well. I did like that in Variable Heart Ragna is as much an asshole as he was in Calamity Trigger though, since he only mellowed out later.

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On 1/21/2017 at 5:40 PM, Leiopelma said:

Maybe Es is confused because she doesn't understand why these people remind her of people she knows. It makes sense for Es not to know who Nine and Celica are though; the fact Es has blue eyes means she still has the Embryo inside her, which indicates that she traveled to CF after the events in Code Embryo but before those in Lost Memories. The Es in CF had yet to meed Nine and Celica.

The deaths allegedly caused by Ragna must have been part of the fake history created by the Embryo rather than something he really did. When Kagura talks about Ragna's crimes in the arcade mode he only mentions people injured.

If Es is just confusing current people for those from her timeline a la Naoto she is wording it very poorly. Why would the people she cherishes dearly be search terms like that? As for whether this Es knows Nine and Celica, Es's origins are completely unknown due to Susano'o saying she was "created by the Azure." Since the Azure can do basically whatever it wants this Es could be based on either pre-LM Es or post-LM Es and it wouldn't make a difference. Either the Azure gives her a new Murakumo or a new Embryo but it has to give her one of those. But regardless of whether or not this Es does remember them, the point is Es should remember them because otherwise LM was completely pointless.

What makes you think they are part of the fake history? Nothing about the changes that did occur to the Embryo timeline are in any way connected to Ragna's actions as the Grim Reaper. The arcade mode is also from the fake history so that is no more trustworthy. In fact, I would argue that in any discrepancy between story and arcade mode, story mode should always be treated as more canon. In both cases the list is really long and gets cut off but the story mode list is longer. Also, the way that arcade quote is worded it sounds like those 500 injured were just in reference to the result of destroying the 10 satellite facilities, not his overall total number of casualties. Most importantly, why would they add in such a number just to have it not be true? It's too important a detail to just be a throwaway, especially when there is nothing to make it clear to the audience that it is a result of the Embryo's history. As you said in another post, it is too convenient that his actions would result in zero deaths, which is why I don't believe that is the case. He might not have directly murdered anyone, but the people he injured were screwed when he destroyed the Cauldrons/NOL branches and they had no way to get to safety.

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16 hours ago, Ogiga99 said:

As you said in another post, it is too convenient that his actions would result in zero deaths, which is why I don't believe that is the case. He might not have directly murdered anyone, but the people he injured were screwed when he destroyed the Cauldrons/NOL branches and they had no way to get to safety.

Took me a bit to find this quote, but here: Hazama in Calamity Trigger Reconstruction outright says that every soldier that fought Ragna lived. This quite obviously contradicts the claim made in CF while the Embryo. Nobody ever accused Ragna of killing people before and since the past presented in the Embryo is demonstrably false for a ton of other things, I really wouldn't trust the accusations made in it that Ragna killed people, especially since there's absolutely no reason to believe that Ragna's past was somehow exempt from these alterations. It may be unrealistic that nobody was ever killed by Ragna, but these are the facts. ArcSys decided to make their lead character more sympathetic by sacrificing a certain level of realism.

As for Lost Memories, quite a bit of what happened there didn't amount to anything. In it Nine came to understand and stop hating her father and also realized he actually cared for his family, which didn't fit at all with Phase 0 where Nine absolutely hated his guts and her father was planning to painfully sacrifice Celica in order to power one of his creations. Es doesn't remember anything about Nine or Celica in her win quotes. The fact she has no scenes with them in the story may be because she'd just go "why do you act as if you know me" and nothing would come of them. Then again the story mode in CF dropped a ton of plot threads, so the omission of a reunion between these characters was unsurprising.

What I would have liked would have been a substory where Team Remix Heart got together again. Mai only ever met Noel in the CF story mode and Kajun never met any of the other girls. Considering how they had gotten separated in Variable Heart and never met again, it would have been nice to see them have a reunion.

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1 hour ago, Leiopelma said:

Took me a bit to find this quote, but here: Hazama in Calamity Trigger Reconstruction outright says that every soldier that fought Ragna lived. This quite obviously contradicts the claim made in CF while the Embryo. Nobody ever accused Ragna of killing people before and since the past presented in the Embryo is demonstrably false for a ton of other things, I really wouldn't trust the accusations made in it that Ragna killed people, especially since there's absolutely no reason to believe that Ragna's past was somehow exempt from these alterations. It may be unrealistic that nobody was ever killed by Ragna, but these are the facts. ArcSys decided to make their lead character more sympathetic by sacrificing a certain level of realism.

As for Lost Memories, quite a bit of what happened there didn't amount to anything. In it Nine came to understand and stop hating her father and also realized he actually cared for his family, which didn't fit at all with Phase 0 where Nine absolutely hated his guts and her father was planning to painfully sacrifice Celica in order to power one of his creations. Es doesn't remember anything about Nine or Celica in her win quotes. The fact she has no scenes with them in the story may be because she'd just go "why do you act as if you know me" and nothing would come of them. Then again the story mode in CF dropped a ton of plot threads, so the omission of a reunion between these characters was unsurprising.

What I would have liked would have been a substory where Team Remix Heart got together again. Mai only ever met Noel in the CF story mode and Kajun never met any of the other girls. Considering how they had gotten separated in Variable Heart and never met again, it would have been nice to see them have a reunion.

This makes me think that the Mercury familiy in Lost Memories is from a different world or timeline that what the original BB world is.

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1 minute ago, heavymetalmixer said:

This makes me think that the Mercury familiy in Lost Memories is from a different world or timeline that what the original BB world is.

Both Celica and Nine recognize Es in win quotes though.

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1 hour ago, heavymetalmixer said:

This makes me think that the Mercury familiy in Lost Memories is from a different world or timeline that what the original BB world is.

Watashi's last exchange in LM is actually pretty clear about this. I don't remember it all that well, but I do remember her theorizing that Es is most likely not from the same world/timeline she is.

1 hour ago, Leiopelma said:

Both Celica and Nine recognize Es in win quotes though.

As should've been obvious from Naoto's dialogue with Relius in his third arcade story, characters in different timelines can meet without events going the same way. As such, just as the Relius in the main BB story witnessed Naoto dying instead of surviving his fight with Clavis, Nine and Celica likely met Es in a way that didn't entail Nine getting over her grudge.

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11 minutes ago, redsilversnake said:

Watashi's last exchange in LM is actually pretty clear about this. I don't remember it all that well, but I do remember her theorizing that Es is most likely not from the same world/timeline she is.

Yes, Es is from a different world than Watashi. That's nothing new; we've known that the Xblaze and BB worlds diverged due to the Wadatsumi Incident since Code Embryo. That has nothing to do with whether Watashi and Imouto we see in Lost Memories is from the same world as the ones in Blazblue. I suppose that Watashi and Imouto being from an entirely different world would explain the discrepancies, but that is never said anywhere and would be a cop-out that would rob Lost Memories of any significance, since it wouldn't be the story of Nine and Celica but different characters whose lives ended up very differently.

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Sorry, I forgot to work in that Watashi and Imouto not being the same Nine and Celica in the main story seemed to be an implication from that exchange.

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22 minutes ago, redsilversnake said:

Sorry, I forgot to work in that Watashi and Imouto not being the same Nine and Celica in the main story seemed to be an implication from that exchange.

Why? Just because Es was from a different world than Nine and Celica doesn't mean that those two were also from a different world from the main BB world.

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3 hours ago, Leiopelma said:

Why? Just because Es was from a different world than Nine and Celica doesn't mean that those two were also from a different world from the main BB world.

Bringing up multiple worlds in a game that ends with a young Nine having let go of her grudge against her father can be easily inferred to mean that that game also doesn't take place in the main timeline.

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Everyone brings up the end of LM with Watashi trying to patch things with her father up as a discrepancy with Nine's hatred of her father but in reality it isn't. Remember Watashi was willing to try reconciling with her father. We never see how that actually goes and considering the actions Shuichiro Ayatsuki will take in the future, it makes perfect sense for Watashi's good will to be gone by the time of BlazBlue. The loss of his wife broke Father, leading to the experiments he performed on her corpse, which leads perfectly into the evil experiments he would do in the future. Between Amane's Astral on Nine and Celica, win quotes implying the two know Es, Nine's conveniently covered eye that glows in her Astral and Imouto flat out appearing in the cutscene where Ragna defeats Nine, we can say 100% that Watashi and Imouto are the BlazBlue versions of Nine and Celica.

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16 hours ago, Ogiga99 said:

Everyone brings up the end of LM with Watashi trying to patch things with her father up as a discrepancy with Nine's hatred of her father but in reality it isn't. Remember Watashi was willing to try reconciling with her father. We never see how that actually goes and considering the actions Shuichiro Ayatsuki will take in the future, it makes perfect sense for Watashi's good will to be gone by the time of BlazBlue. The loss of his wife broke Father, leading to the experiments he performed on her corpse, which leads perfectly into the evil experiments he would do in the future. Between Amane's Astral on Nine and Celica, win quotes implying the two know Es, Nine's conveniently covered eye that glows in her Astral and Imouto flat out appearing in the cutscene where Ragna defeats Nine, we can say 100% that Watashi and Imouto are the BlazBlue versions of Nine and Celica.

That, and Nine's stage literally being in the Phantom Field, which she brings members of the Entitled to. Watashi "sealed" it off at the end of L:M, so surely only that version of her would know about its existence. Idk about you guys, but I'm satisfied with saying that Watashi and Imouto are Nine and Celica.

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20 hours ago, churchblue said:

I'm still hoping that Mai will meet Trinity in Variable Heart.

I'm just hoping Mai and Taro get together or atleast have some interaction with each other. But enough of my fanboy-gasms. maybe trinity and mai do meet.

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14 hours ago, coreylee12 said:

I'm just hoping Mai and Taro get together or atleast have some interaction with each other. But enough of my fanboy-gasms. maybe trinity and mai do meet.

While interaction between the two is inevitable (they are currently in the same location and will most likely still be once the battle ends), romantic resolution is unlikely. We know Mai disappears to go to Sector Seven and taro doesn't. Even if something happened it won't last. This is BlazBlue, where no one can have romantic resolution. Even the most unquestionably canon pairings (JinXTsubaki and TouyaXEs) are never shown getting together onscreen.

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11 hours ago, Ogiga99 said:

While interaction between the two is inevitable (they are currently in the same location and will most likely still be once the battle ends), romantic resolution is unlikely. We know Mai disappears to go to Sector Seven and taro doesn't. Even if something happened it won't last. This is BlazBlue, where no one can have romantic resolution. Even the most unquestionably canon pairings (JinXTsubaki and TouyaXEs) are never shown getting together onscreen.

Hey man you never know! Even though jinxTsubaki was/is canon, that ship had some flaws and I personally think it was do to their characters with Jin being kind of crazy and Tsubaki being well...evil at the time of chronophantasma. Mai and Taro however, seem like normal likable people so who dont really have problems that should jeopardize the chance of them getting together.  

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11 hours ago, churchblue said:

Mai hates Relius more than anyone else she dislikes. Hopefully we will see this development weave through Variable Heart.

We won't and there's no reason to. Mai in her arcade route goes to look for Relius in order to determine if he's a threat and she only comes to seriously hate him after meeting him and learning how he views others. There's no need for her to meet him again in Variable Heart, especially when she had already met him in Remix Heart. It would be dumb for Mai to try and find out if Relius is a threat in CF if she had already seen him act like an evil bastard in Variable Heart.

7 hours ago, coreylee12 said:

Hey man you never know! Even though jinxTsubaki was/is canon, that ship had some flaws and I personally think it was do to their characters with Jin being kind of crazy and Tsubaki being well...evil at the time of chronophantasma. Mai and Taro however, seem like normal likable people so who dont really have problems that should jeopardize the chance of them getting together.  

Mai in her victory quote against Kagura asks where Taro is, which embarrasses her. The fact she doesn't know his whereabouts and that she's embarrassed to ask makes it abundantly clear that there has been no romantic development between the two. After all if they were a couple she wouldn't be embarrassed to ask about him and one might expect her to know what he has been up to.

Jin and Tsubaki was the most blatant and obvious pairing in the entire franchise and neither of them were crazy or brainwashed when CF ended but nonetheless they weren't shown together in the end. I suggest you give up hoping for a Taro/Mai ship; Taro's main function in Mai's story was to make her realize that she's attracted to men and thus come to the conclusion that she was no longer a boy in the body of a girl, but instead that her mind had also become that of a girl. That caused an identity crisis in Mai, pushed her to seek Seifer's help and eventually paved the way for her to fully accept herself as a woman. Beyond that, the romance with Taro was an afterthought; Remix Heart almost entirely focused on Mai's relationship with her friends.

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5 minutes ago, Leiopelma said:

We won't and there's no reason to. Mai in her arcade route goes to look for Relius in order to determine if he's a threat and she only comes to seriously hate him after meeting him and seeing how he views others. There's no need for her to meet him again in Variable Heart, especially when she had already met him in Remix Heart. It would be dumb for Mai to try and find out if Relius is a threat in CF if she had already seen him act like an evil bastard in Variable Heart.

Mai in her victory quote against Kagura asks where Taro is, which embarrasses her. The fact she doesn't know his whereabouts and that she's embarrassed to ask makes it abundantly clear that there has been no romantic development between the two. After all if they were a couple she wouldn't be embarrassed to ask about him and one might expect her to know what he has been up to.

Jin and Tsubaki was the most blatant and obvious pairing in the entire franchise and neither of them were crazy or brainwashed when CF ended but nonetheless they weren't shown together in the end. I suggest you give up hoping for a Taro/Mai ship; Taro's main function in Mai's story was to make her realize that she's attracted to men and thus come to the conclusion that she was no longer a boy in the body of a girl, but instead that her mind had also become that of a girl. That caused an identity crisis in Mai, pushed her to seek Seifer's help and eventually paved the way for her to fully accept herself as a woman. Beyond that, the romance with Taro was an afterthought; Remix Heart almost entirely focused on Mai's relationship with her friends.

To be fair mori did wanted to show Jin and tsubaki together it's just that it was cut because he thought that would be redundant.

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Keep in mind. Mai did meet Relius before CF. That time in Remix didn't count cuz she didn't know him. Also Relius brought her to the cauldron which is probably gonna happen in Variable Heart. By CF, Mai is already knows about Relius and is utterly disgusted of his point of view of people. Hence why she hates him more than anyone she dislikes.

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