[CP] The Critique My Hakumen Thread

[Moblin]

Halp.  This was a FT5 I did against our local Amane, and I had a lot of fun but I really don't know how to do better.

 

http://www.twitch.tv/milehighburst/b/533847511?t=4h0m21s

 

What can I do better, what am I doing badly, how should I change my thinking about this matchup or my playstyle?

 

I know a lot of you probably don't have much Amane experience but these matches were interesting to say the least.

 

 

Any and all critique is appreciated <3

[Schneider-X]

Hey guys,

 

Here's some FT3s I had with most of the anime scene here in Winnipeg.  I did alot better than I usually do but any critique is much appreciated.

 

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsS8X-4BMAZEzPwCHJfcyejVZwnucmtDy

[mAc Chaos]

> chris will just do a canadian reset

> canadian

[Moblin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxfnXwpLHjo

 

So I get to Evo, go to my first casuals room for my first matches in Vegas, and this newb sits down next to me

 

Turns out it was Spark >.>

 

This isn't so much a plea for critique, but I thought I might as well post it here.  I had a lot of fun playing against a better Haku than me and I learned a lot

 

 

 

 

 

edit: two things I especially learned about my combo routes is that 6b normal hit > RC > 6C in the corner works and I should have used it

 

and that Haku is actually really hard to do j.C > 5c wall stick.  The only haku dittos I had played up until then was Mac, and I'm not sure if I tried many OD combos with wall stick in them online.  I dropped a few round-winning combos because of my inexperience there.

[mAc Chaos]

Hmm, it wasn't that hard to do the wall stick for Hakumen for me. I have a harder time remembering which character it applies to.

 

And I'm glad you posted the matches. I'll watch them when I get home. I wanted to see how you guys played.

[Moblin]

It's not so much the wallstick itself, as the spacing/timing to do the wall stick so that double 5c will work in the corner.  I always misjudged where Haku's wallstick hitbox was so I dropped the combo.   

 

 

 

I also gave away quite a few rounds by nervous-throwing on wakeup and getting Counter Hit, but that was nerves.  Which is something much broader I need to work on

[Soviet Bear]

(Camrecord footage warning)

 

OK, so this was one of my matches from January with my regular Ragna sparring partner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dLCuWX6Ko8

I've been playing since CT, but CP was the first BB I owned (no console before then). So this was like after... 4 months of active play as opposed to bi-weekly play pre-CP.

 

Here are matches with the same Ragna from last night:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GEtjy0_RRQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tByEHaOHhd0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEZHb6hV4kc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sI0Y4qmTfg

 

I recorded these four since some stuff I do isn't present in every match. Please keep in mind that since this is someone I regularly play, a lot of decisions in the match are more VS the player rather than VS the character.

 

Anyhow, all comments/criticism are welcome. Also, I still haven't learned the BnB :/

[entnervt]

I could need some advice too. This is a ft10 set in a series of german ft10 streams, the matches start around 08:30.

http://www.twitch.tv/m1kr0s/b/569587598

 

What I've seen myself:

- I let her use Afterburner way too much

- I play way too aggressive in the beginning, later I've tried playing more patient

- I should remain calm in the corner, I often got hitted while jumping on wake up but this jumps where unintentionally because I didn't hold the stick clean backwards for standing block and jumped instead.

- I let her roll away unpunished nearly every time (if not every time)

 

 

 

[Soviet Bear]

I haven't had a chance to play versus better Bullet players, but here's some stuff I've noticed. Feel free to ignore anything that looks like it were just isolated mistakes:

• Punish Afterburner's recovery at least with a IAD j2C or, if you don't think you have enough time but are close enough, a 4C. Shippu also works (which I saw you used later actually);
• Don't push yourself into the corner. I saw you jump backwards a few times in a row while Bullet was far away enough not to be an immediate threat;
• If you're not doing anything during her OD startup animation, go ahead and punish it during its recovery. I'm not sure how long OD recovery is, but I'm pretty sure there's a window where you can get a hit in;
• I sometimes do this too because I like being fancy, but if a character has limited projectile options (like Bullet, Kagura or Ragna), you're better off using D on their projectiles for the extra magatama. Only if they're too far away, though. If they're close, slice it for the fuumajin. You might get them the first time if they run into you on autopilot, but when they're used to the fuumajin spawning, it'll just be a waste;
• (^Exceptions are dashing in like you did in the 10th match. Slice away there, too.)
• You can also punish projectiles on startup with Shippu. Your projectile will hit and their projectile will be sliced;
• I didn't see you use 6B almost at all. It's a great tool if you see that they crouch-blocked your 2A;
• (6th match) If you get 5C in, cancelling it into Renka will whiff if the opponent is too far away, but it's really rare for a Zantetsu to whiff in that case;
• If you're feeling ballsy, you can do a Yukikaze in the middle of their blockstring (although you'd need plenty MU exp to know which character has gaps where). You can even do this in the middle of a grounded combo, as long as it wasn't a counterhit combo;
• (9th match) I found that doing kishuu VS grounded projectiles is harder than you'd think, especially in netplay. I know I still only get 1 in 5 successful VS deadspikes and Bullet's projectile feels the same;
• (Also 9th match) Yeah, like you said, you didn't punish rolls enough. Find what works for you, there are a lot of options. Condition them to expect one move, then punish them by switching it up. 6B, 2A, Zan, tiger-knee'd Tsubaki, or even a charged Shippu or 6C if there's enough distance between you two;
• (Also 9th match) If you're nearing a time-out, you can buy more time by doing a raw OD, since it freezes the timer and Haku is a character with a strong comeback factor anyway. And since it's OD and not burst, you'll have it in the next round most likely;
• (Also 9th match, second round) If you have a decent health advantage and they're in their red health zone, don't rush it. People are under pressure in that situation and they make mistakes, so feel free to act as though you intend to time them out, and just watch for windows to finish them off;
• From what I've played Bullet, you can punish her raw drives with your own drive. Not sure how it works versus more skilled players;
• (End of 11th match) This is probably just a force of habit and/or playstyle, but if you can kill the player right away with a simpler input, I'd say go for that. Your 5C or Zan could have gone into a Shippu and ended it. I'm mostly saying this because when you're under pressure, it's easier to drop combos and if it was a match-winning combo, you'll end up even more frustrated for dropping it. Luckily it didn't happen in that particular match;
• (12th match, 1st round) Again, I'm sure this is more playstyle than anything, but if you fear your opponent might burst your combo, unless you're baiting the burst, you can cancel into Shippu for decent damage. If they miss the burst window, they'll eat it. 5C > Zan (1 hit) > Shippu is around 5600 I think (And at certain distances, Zan > Shippu lets you avoid getting hit by the burst because Haku does a step back);
• (12th match, start of 2nd round) I saw you were waiting for her recovery animation to do the 3C. Regardless that it whiffed, Afterburner only has a guardpoint VS projectiles, so slam her with whatever, or kishuu grab, don't wait. You only need to worry about that guard point when you're doing Shippu or Agito, and in the case of the former, only when you're too far away to reach her with your sword;
• This is a bit difficult to explain, but I saw you jump out of corners a few times when the opponent's back was against the wall. This really depends on the match-up, opponent and what's going on through your head at the moment, but when you give up an advantage like that, you're telling your opponent to punish you for that. I don't really know what to tell you in this case other than "keep them in the corner";

In general, I think you're strengths are being really consistent in combo execution and when you get an opportunity in, you do max damage. What I think the problem might be is that you use a limited number of tools to get those opportunities in, so the opponent has an easier time preventing them. You also seem to choke often and I get the impression you either had no idea what to do next, or you were to worried your opponent would make the right read. Try adding more possible approaches and moves to your arsenal. Your opponent will have a harder time guessing what you'll do and you'll be more confident with what you can do in any given situation. Even if it's just an extra 5A, it's still one extra punch.

 

Hope you find something useful in this wall of text. I've noticed even last year at FFM Rumble that our playstyles are completely different, but hopefully you'll find something that you can use.

[entnervt]

Thx Soviet Bear, I'll try to display some of my decisions and things I am not conform with your thoughts. But I'm really grateful for your input.

 

- To punish projectiles with Shippu you need to gamble a bit or know the person you're playiing against. On reaction it's useless if you're fullscreen e.g.

- 6B is not that useful when playing vs that Bullet player, he knows that too well and blocks it right in 9/10 attempts.

- I often cut the projectile because Bullets often want to get close following it.

- Yukikaze during a blockstring from Bullet DOES require a lot of match up exp. There's only her 5B>5C(or 5[C]) with a gap big enough. I'm not good enough yet to react properly in this situation.

- 5C>Zan>Shippu is only useful if it kills, otherwise it's meterwaste imo.

 

I'll watch your matches later, I'm short on time right now.

[BlackYakuzu94]

@SovietBear: Stop using Shippu so much, especially full screen, you're only succeeding in wasting meter that could be used for better things. Once in a while, sure but not all of the time. Also, you're mashing a lot on wake up hence why you keep getting Counter Hit so much; try to think about what the opponent will try to catch you with as you wake up and act appropriately, worst case scenario you just have to block.

 

Also, and because I do this a lot myself, don't use 3C as such a close range because it's really punishable there. If you must try to space out the opponent as much as possible before ending pressure with 3C so you're still safe enough to block afterward.

 

 

@entnervt: I'd work on your offense some more, there were a lot of points when you backed off and gave up whatever advantage you have, Bullet can't do much when you're on top of her and while Hakumen's pressure isn't exactly...great, they're bound to crack eventually. Try things like tick throws, Hop Tsubaki, Renka(1)>Kishuu etc. when you're attacking.

[entnervt]

Also thx to you, BlackYakuzu94. Yes, my gameplay  definitely lacks offensive and I'll work on it.

 

@Soviet Bear: What BlackYakuzu said. And you definitely should grind some pmode, you waste damage potential with things like counterhit jB>3C.

- Also you should use Zanshin>Enma more, it's another waste of free and solid (if not high) damage.

- You abuse the C button. 5C to stop approaches and 6C for zoning are really risky.

- 2nd match, 3rd round, tk or hop Tsubaki to stop air approach? Why not Hotaru?

- And again, after I've seen it in your 3rd vid, 3C>5>ZAN(1)>SHIPPU to get 5,6k dmg? That's really a waste of magatama.

[Soviet Bear]

Yeah, the Tsubaki instead of Hotaru was a misinput on my part. I generally try Hotaru in those cases.

As for the 5,6k combo, I'm open to suggestions for alternative routes. My problem is that most combo routes go into the BnB one and I have a lot of execution problems with it.

I try avoiding 6C/5C for approaches unless I'm certain about the opponent's habits, but in this case I think my opponent wasn't used to it yet so that's why I used it more than usual.

 

For Zanshin > Enma, I misread what you meant and first thought you meant kishuu for some reason. Yeah, I need to upgrade my combos first to capitalize on that. I guess the general takeaway is that I'm going for safe inputs most of the time.

 

Thanks for the comments. I'll see if I can get into training mode for a few hours this weekend and look into better punishes/combos.

[entnervt]

A bnb is a must have in your arsenal. As I mentioned earlier, if it kills it's worth every magatama you have. But if not, it would be better to do something else. Something that leads to less but solid dmg and knockdown or, at best, something that leads into corner with knockdown. That way you have the advantage AND magatama in stock.

[CupofT]

@Soviet Bear: was interested in what entnervt said about the third video. From my prespective try to capitalize on CH 4C. If you have meter to burn Gurren > Enma > [stuff] or Gurren > 3C. And as for CH 3C, if you have the meter: 3C > 5C > Zan(1) > Kishu > [stuff]. Where [stuff] is Hakumen's jumploop and however many reps you are able to execute.

 

Hope this helps. Good luck out there

[mAc Chaos]

4C > Zan works too.

[entnervt]

Btw @ Soviet Bear: From situations you've been in I wrote up some routes with different magatama consumption. Maybe you get a feeling for meter management that way:

- 3C(ch)>5C>Kishuu>2B>5A>5B>jB>j2A>dj2C>Agito deals 3004 dmg.(2 Mags)

- 3C(ch)>2C>j2A>dj2C>5A>j2A>dj2C>5A>5B>jB>j2A>dj2C>Agito deals 3286 dmg (1(!!) Mag) but you've to be really close when 3C hits (which you were sometimes iirc).

- 3C(ch)>5C>Zan(1)>Kishuu>2C>j2A>dj2C>5A>5B>jB>j2A>dj2C>Agito deals 5125dmg, 4C(ch) starter with 1 rep more deals 4677dmg (5 Mags).

- While jumping out of corner cross up jB(ch)>5C>Renka(1)>Kishuu>6C>2C>jC>Hotaru>dj>f.jC>5C>5C>Gurren>5C>3C deals 4383 dmg (5 Mags)

- 5C(aa)>Kishuu>2C>j2A>dj2C>5A>j2A>dj2C>5A>5B>jB>j2A>dj2C>Agito deals 3528 dmg but 5C(aa) must hit relatively high (2 Mags).

- 5C(aa)>Kishuu>2B>5A>5B>jB>j2A>dj2C>Agito deals 2666 dmg (2 Mags).

- 5C(aa)>Zan(1)>Kishuu>2C>j2A>dj2C>5A>j2A>dj2C>5A>5B>jB>j2A>j2C>Agito deals 5321 dmg (5 Mags)

- 3C(ch)>5C>OD>5C>Zan(1)>Kishuu>2C>jcHotaru>ad>j2C>5C>Shippu deals 6.9k dmg. You need 4 Mags at the beginning and 40% life or less. The Shippu must be full charged.

 

That are just examples and only from the starters that I've seen you could have used. In general 5B/2B are more common starters, with less dmg of course. But lower dmg is way better then close to no dmg. Even if it is something dumb like 5A(aa)>5B>jB>j2A>djC for 1366dmg. Work on your confirms.

[Soviet Bear]

Wow, thanks for those. I'll try them out in training mode this week.

[Schneider-X]

Its been a long time since I got into Grand Finals for our local tournament but it finally happened last weekend.  Please give me any advice you have.  I'm particularly happy with how I played against Bmeister barring some combo drops.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxAnUSs60E8&list=UU2pktn2f2GhehxvFXFeCOQg

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg0IKeDVoQE&index=7&list=UU2pktn2f2GhehxvFXFeCOQg

[BladeOfJustice7]

Hmmmm, while I don't avidly play this game. I'm going to do more to support newer Hakumen players, since I've played this game for so long so I have a general idea of how to play this character and most matchups. Obviously newer matchups like Kagura, Kokonoe, Celica, and L-11 (I doubt she plays that much different from N-13 though).

 

I thought I would formally post this. Also, if any new Hakumen players seek to improve their skills from a moderately old man (Spark's older tho *SHOTS FIRED*), feel free to P.M me questions you have or links to your matches and I can break them down for you.

 

Also Hakumen CP 2.0 looks kinda fun, he reminds me of CSEX Hakumen sans- frame 1 active 6d. Who knows I may start playing again...

 

Anyways, I'll take a look at your matches schneider when I get the chance.

[mAc Chaos]

I never know what to say for a critique. Everything seems so obvious.

Also we need more veteran Haku players coming back. I feel like the only adult at a park swarming with kids nowadays.

[Schneider-X]

I guess I'm middle aged then since I've been reading the haku forums since CS1-CS2 but only started posting with CP really.

 

Anyways thanks for whatever you can say about my gameplay blade!

[BladeOfJustice7]

I never know what to say for a critique. Everything seems so obvious.

Also we need more veteran Haku players coming back. I feel like the only adult at a park swarming with kids nowadays.

I figured, and I noticed even in my scene there's been an influx of new players, who even play Hakumen.

 

I thought I could at least give advice, I might play CP2 though. I'm feeling the way Hakumen plays, even though they still have no idea what they want to do with him as a character lol.

[BlackYakuzu94]

You guys are making me feel mad young right now.

[BladeOfJustice7]

You Hakumen young whipper snappers make me and mAc feel mad old.