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Urichinan

[CP] Litchi vs. Kokonoe

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A kokonoe teleported behind me and i still caught her with a wake up DP while she was behind me, gonna upload it as that might come in hella handy for this match up if we can do that and get her off our tales and make her scared of teleporting behind us.

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That's pretty much similar to the Azreal match up where her DP starts up behind her, covering wrong direction throws. Just as it works well in the Azreal match up, I think it will work well here.

Hell, I think DPs in this match is VERY important, for what little I've played of it.

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As a beginner to this game, I have no idea how to fight kokonoe. How does litchi deal with the magnet? Also are we more on the offensive in this match up or defensive? Not really sure what to do against her

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Got to play this match up against last night. I've only gotten to play our local Kokonoe in tournaments/ranbats so far so I'm learning as I play. Some small things I figured out:

Don't use 5A while on ground. Kokonoe's 5A goes under Litchi's 5A AND moves her forward, making it damn near the perfect poke move. Try to stick to 2As if you're going to throw out anything.

ODing/Bursting on reaction may be a GOOD idea if Kokonoe has Astral ready and teleports. There are far too many options she gets after a teleport when blocking becomes unsafe any more (and gets you equally killed for not blocking or trying to punish her teleport).

Command Backdash is pretty decent after certain parts of her pressure strings so you can get out and reset a little bit. Or if they make a mistake, you can forward air dash to regain pressure right then and there.

Outside of the usual air dash, pressuring Kokonoe with 6B -> 6C, 3C, or Itsuu~B/C seems to be good. It forces her to respect you from mid-screen and limits her ability to throw random fireballs and magnets.

Itsuu seems to be decent for jump-in happy Kokonoes as she has no other options after touching the guard point with j.2C besides RC -> Barrier (which getting rid of 50 meter may be worth it lol) Just be careful of cross ups and try to cancel the moment the j.2C touches you. May not still get out without CH, so still be careful.

Keep your staff on you as much as possible. DPing is hella important in this match up so you don't get stuck. If you need to take a little extra damage to get a D call out (try to limit this to midscreen though, corner damage is not worth it) so you get your staff back, consider it.

Kokonoe has limited options against Litchi Oki. Be a little slow on the run in after staff throws as she still has her fireball super on wake up. If you do manage to bait out the fireball super, dash-in grab, it should buy you enough time to either get through much of the fireball on tech, and completely through on hit (able to block if it's on you while Kokonoe is forced a knockdown, or you get a combo if it's completely away).

Kokonoe seems a bit weak to jump-under AAing. So if she's in rage, j.As or grabs may be a good idea. If she hits you with CH j.2C, it's marginal at least. (I haven't seen anything hit off it without being in prime position).

Jumping and barrier blocking into fireball set ups seems to be decent while IBing the hell out of it to get meter. Avoids having to worry about High/Lows in addition to Cross-Ups.

If Kokonoe is chillin behind her proximity lightning, pressure through it with 3C. DO NOT. DO NOT USE 6B. It extends your hurt box too far. If 3C taps: 2/5D throw staff and get close to proximity to let it fire while Kokonoe has to block some. Can also just staff throw and approach proximity the same too. Just be ready.

Shinshin does NOT beat out Kokonoe's fireball if they clash. Yes, this is upsetting news.

As a beginner to this game, I have no idea how to fight kokonoe. How does litchi deal with the magnet? Also are we more on the offensive in this match up or defensive? Not really sure what to do against her

Magnet depends on what Kokonoe does after. You just have to respect it usually, but a jump and barrier block when Kokonoe comes close in her approach is probably the better neutral thing you can do so you can react to more stuff.

I find myself on the more defensive overall, but once I can get one appropriate knockdown, it's much more offensive while trying to keep strings tight enough that she cannot teleport out or something. I'm sure more posts will be coming on how to handle this match up, though.

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I also found that some Kokonoes like to place there magnets where you are after a knock down and on your wake up, activate it for you to get hit/block. If you roll instead, the activation will make your roll go father. Take this to your advantage to either get away from her or get closer (depeding on what you want to do on your wake up)

If you activate 4winds during teleport, it will still follow her (from some of the matches i've had that is. This could also backfire). Sometimes she will try to teleport to mess with your buttons. You can take this to your advantage too if they are trying to bait a DP. Going for 6d can either catch her (if she doesn't teleport) or turns into 4d for a clean overhead (if she does teleport) If she teleports and you still get 6d, you'll give yourself space between you two (note if she has the fire ball out, you really are just going to have to try and block that shit. Jumping out seems to work if it's not the super fire ball)

As mentioned before, Ittsu forces her to respect, especially if they are j.2c happy. You get a free combo ^_^

The staff hold > Kanchan cross up works wonders on her since you mess with her buttons if she tries to teleport, and even if she does, there is a chance you will FC her.

Also, i dunno if it's just me, but it seems her 3c in mid combo misses a lot more on litchi. I could be imagining things, but if that is the case, a wiff move = free punish (and 3c is hella punishable)

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Truth be told the way that all kokonoe's play so differently.  some aspects of this matchup are so 50/50 that its stressful. Not bad like 1.0  - even tho we could win back then and win now.

her 5B being unable to low to lows means we have to use 2a stagger pressure and 5b -5c 

Her AA can get J.D'd a few times - the problem is how you wish to land - that being  > if you jump on the staff or if you've already used all your dashes in the air.

 

Okizeme vs her is fine. I mean -  the 2 steps you stay away from her on her wake up can be used to bait her Super Ball and teleports.

J.D'ing vs koko is dangerous , only because graviton can mess up your landing - you may not land on the staff if you do j.63214A /B/C  

 

But tbh the stress of fighting a character that can simply put out a graviton and either make you move too fast / or too slow and disrupt your spacing (i.e. planning to throw out a 6b /  or etc)  makes this MU slightly stressful.  Especially since its little to no effort to put out a graviton whiles we have to think of the best time to lay the staff down.

 

Its one of those matches up - you can't play 100% towards a plan just because kokonoe has so many ways to disrupt you.  

I think we need to talk about her block strings in detail for people to understand how to get out of pressure  / when to press buttons (or DP) and what to do /not to do. 

 

People lose to koko from lack of understanding her mixup (and i'm not even talking about her crazy stuff, her basic block strings / routes / and stagger pressure in to >higher level mix up)

 

I suffer from lack of experience vs this character and even from watching numerous koko's such as LK / Necro / Tetsuwo  / PAIN - you can see that none of them play her the same.  But looking at her basic pressure (before the real stuff startts happening with the gimmicks and etc) , i definitely need to understand when/where to press buttons and even when is it safe to Back dash.  i mean 5a stagger pressure in to a 2b > could go in to a 3c/5c that catching Backdashes.  

 

We need to dig deep for this topic. Anyone have some really good in depth info that can help with what I described?

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I always felt like kokonoe was a strong combination of both litchi and rachel, with a little Noel mixed in with the whole 5b 2b high and low profiles. Her pressure is more resembling to litchis, in that one really is never able to truly get out 100% without guessing, because she has options to shit on jumping, mashing, and turtling, and she has a decent mixup game especially on oki.

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Yeah I see her in a similar way myself. She has similar moves from quite a few characters but has better versions of their moves and  plays like rachel/litchi.

 

I.e. her 3c is like a faster/dangerous version of Litchi's / her fireball-lightning are (I wouldn't say "Better" but) more annoying than rachels / Her AA is better version of Ragna's (with a bigger hitbox and charge)  / Her 5a is similar to Bang's who excels in that 5a stagger pressure,  her 5C is similar to like mu's imo and faster - with more ch hit stun  and  the list goes on.

 

but apart from similarities, i don't see Litchi/Rachel (even when looking at their most vicious/dangerous setups/pressure) as such a dominate force like kokonoe. Its so Risky to move anywhere because of her game plan being so dangerous from anywhere.

 

I don't think people realize how good her gravitons are imo / I also give good koko's credit because her mixup looks so complex as well as her combos- but before they even go in to depth about koko's pressure and plan - by simply putting a graviton out - you're already annoying/disrupting the opponent. its just stress. And there's not much to do about it.  and people who think its easy just say "you have to hit her and it'll go away".  

 

I need some real in depth koko info - I find myself looking at videos of good koko players and using the block strings they use in training mode recording to see how dangerous each one is - if it catches backdashes / jump outs / if you IB barrier or counter assault (because her lows are natural CA baits sadly.......) 

There's so much to take in to consideration - I almost get a headache.

 

Anything to add TD?

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"I need some real in depth koko info"

*Looks back at Litchi vs Rachel thread*

hhhhrrrrrrggghhhhh...

 

This one's a little harder to break down because a lot of her stuff is more situational and not like... 5B happens, next up could be X, Y or Z... You need to consider where the 22B, 214X and gravitons are on the screen at all times to know her options...
Also, I don't really play this MU at all, I just have a lot of experience with both characters.

 

Let's start with some neutral stuff.

 

 

6A

Don't mess with this. The best you can do is bait it out with a j.D which isn't so great due to you probably going staffless through most of this MU. Much like Rachel's don't try to double jump cancel it as she can just hold it or do another one on whiff.  Avoid this as all costs
 

 

5A/2A stagger pressure

This one hurts, I used it pretty effectively to open people up in my Koko days. She carries so much dash momentum that any micro-dash seems to keep her in range for another potentially 3 attacks and the threat of throw is really strong. Avoid this is possible via a well timed (double) backdash or DP.

 

 

General gatling pressure

Not as scary as it used to be now that her gatling options have been reduced a fair bit. 6B doesn't come out of nearly as many things so once you're through the 5A/2A part of things, you don't need to worry about the wrench overhead until the gatling starts again.

 

This all gets a bit more scary once you have a graviton on you because anything jump cancellable turns into a relatively fast overhead j.2C > combo once you block j.2C you're in the clear as graviton will push you away... unless you're in the corner, in which case you should actually be OK to pressure as there's no stun on the graviton activation. Just don't underestimate this 50/50.

 

 

3C

This move hurts people not used to the MU. It used to be -1 but now it's nerfed down to -3. Try to IB the 2nd hit and get pressure off this but watch for them cancelling the 1st hit into graviton as it can be a ghetto pressure reset if you're not expecting it and really sucks because now there's a graviton on you. Don't try to jump between 5C and 3C... you'll get hit.

 

 

6D > 214X

These wonderful full screen fireball setups. Don't block them... that's just what they want you to do. Get out of there and/or try to hit them as they teleport to the fireball. 

For something so simple, there's so many ways this can be used. Be it to get it for pressure or to stay out/run away.

Koko will probably do one of the following.

 

6D > 214X > teleport in - try to get pressure behind the fireball. Making her block makes the fireball go away but sometimes it's dangerous to try because the fireball hurts your face.

 

6D > 214X > wait - Koko waits to see what you do. If you run in at her, she may...

- activate the graviton and start pressure, you can press buttons to CH her out of this.

- activate and cancel into teleport to keep her run-away game up... nothing you can do about this really. Be happy she lost some graviton meter.

 

If you stand and wait/run away she may...

- Throw another fireball and/or re-set a 6D to keep up the fireball game. Use this time (especially when he does 214X again) to set your staff down

- Set 22B to keep you out. Again, use this to set your staff down. I suggest 2D so you can send it off, run up and IAD back to set off trap and get in

 

She can also do 6D > 214X > 22B

This is super run-away mode and limits your options a lot.

I recommend definitely not running at this one without staff support as you're going to get graviton activated into 22B range and potentially crossed up with teleport, at which point Koko can generally get a full combo... At best you can try to run up to and THROUGH the 22B range with help of the graviton speed to catch Koko off guard. Risky though...

Your best bet here is to stand back and be ready to throw your staff to either stop the next fireball via block or CH... on CH you can go in, on block you need to keep up the long range pressure until 22B goes off and you can get in.

 

In general, neutral here really sucks... Koko just has so much crap on the screen, it's hard to do anything to get in. I recommend playing most of the match in staffless mode due to the faster buttons and ability to stuff things with 5D/2D. Your extra range in staff mode won't really help you in a lot of cases here and the slower startup on moves will just get you stuffed a bunch. Access to a DP is nice but not getting put in pressure in the first place is preferred.

 

 

Kokonoe's oki.

 

This is where it gets fun... so you get hit, bad luck son, you're in for a ride.

 

Let's start with corner setups since so many things are going to corner carry or side swap you straight to the corner.

Keep in mind, I haven't played her personally since 1.0 but most of these setups are the same as before maybe with different combos into them...

 

6B(1) > 22B > 2A

Combo ends after 6B, 2A will OTG you into a red combo if you don't tech or if you roll... Should also recover in time to block a DP... Both immediate and delayed techs will make you block lightning and. This one's nasty. It lets Koko go for a side-swap teleport mixup or a j.2C vs 2B high/low mixup... or 214X > 6D extended oki.

 

Your best bet here is to block the initial lightning with 421ABD to OS the teleport mixup. You'll DP the cross-up or block the same side mixup. You still have to watch for the high in this situation though.

If Koko goes for a fireball setup after this, you can still run the same OS to beat cross-ups but you need to watch out for the high/low and possibly a throw in between. This is the scariest oki due to the options she has... you'll need to look out here and just deal with it as it comes.

 

 

236B > 5C > 22B > 214A

The old classic double projectile oki. Recovers in time to block DPs so like... don't.

Another one you'll need to block (because Kokonoe) but not as scary as the one above as the 22C cross-up isn't as strong. Just look out for the j.2C timed so that the fireball carries the combo and a throw between projectiles. Patience is your friend.

 

 

236B > 214A > (5D/6D)

General fireball pressure. No lightning here. This just kind of mixes things up a bit to keep you on your toes. There's more chance of throw early on here but you have more option to DP. Pretty much the same as before, just looks different.

 

 

On the offense

Just a short bit to run over offense against Kokonoe.

 

Make sure you know anti-super ball combos for when you bait it out. For the most part, 6B > 6C (don't 66B, you won't get the CH) combos will push you out of fireball range. If not, work on CH 2C > 2D combos.

 

4/1ABX OS all the things. So many Kokos are really teleport happy. Lots of players don't know how to deal with it and they'll take advantage of this. Barrier OS a bunch to beat both super ball and teleport while keeping on pressure.

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"I need some real in depth koko info"

*Looks back at Litchi vs Rachel thread*

hhhhrrrrrrggghhhhh...

 

Thank you for this in-depth analysis of kokonoe.

The sad thing for me is that I know about all that - but still koko has a 1 up over us all......Man this character has tech for days - and you've mentioned all the crucial ones  but there's still so much. Forgive me for asking for in-depth info , i know the rachel one is almost as bad and just a long in terms of information.

 

But I guess its time to take what i've got and just fight a lot of kokonoe's as much as possible. This one of them match ups where you really have to grind the hell out of .

 

But regardless of the stress. Thank you for this Kokonoe break down - it is much appreciated and has helped me remember a few things and will probably help others even more.  I hope to bring more information to this match up from the experience I get.

 

hhhhrrrrrrggghhhhh........The kokonoe army at EVO is going to be so fun to fight against isn't it looool...... I hope you litchi's are going to bring your metal - or send that spirit ball energy to your fellow Litchi's in this their time of need lol. 

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#TheStruggleIsReal

 

If you're having any issues with specific setups or situations, let me know and I can help throw together some ideas as to how to respond to it.

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