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frtpunchsamurai

vs. Order-Sol

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ORDER-SOL

5.5-4.5 - In Venom's favor.

Do's and Dont's:

Dont's:

1. Try to avoid risky moves that risks you of getting storm viper(6H,5S, Dubious Curve, or if you're in range of SV, observe). Once Order-Sol get an okizeme he'll be in command.

2. Avoid getting KD

Do's:

1.Know thy Order-Sols jump max range. You'll be able to zone order-sol out properly if you know how far he can jump.

2.Pressure him without risking of Storm Viper hit.*2s,2s,2s pressure*

3.Bait their Storm Viper and punish. If they keep on SVing all day, FD break is a good use here.

4.If you're originally an offensive venom I'm not sure how you handle things but its best to be defensive against OS.

5.2D is also good in this match up but its kinda 50/50. if you get him its good. if he gets you, you're dead.

Simple Gameplan:

Okizeme -> Pressure

Okizeme -> Zone corner push -> Pressure

Okizeme -> Crossup/Mixup (i prefer crossup to avoid getting SV)

Zone -> balls

Top 10 Moves:

Anti-close up-

jH - beats most of OS shit

stinger aim H - i find stinger aim H quite useful in this match up(long range) as a faster alternative to 2S/5S. also it zones order-sols ground, thus they'll have to jump a lot and risk of getting 6P'd

2S - (risk of getting Sv, gunblaze) good pressure string. avoid this move in close range im tellin ya (SV can't hit you in max range or near to max range. youll get hit if you're too close though)(risk to Sv, gunblaze)

5S - pins order-sol every time he attempts to jump, thus you gain a free ball summon yay. its safer this i think, or you can just add more stuff on how to summon safer.(risk of getting Sv, gunblaze)

carcass raid S - good for pressure/zoning, but i don't usually use this move. when i have the chance, i always use ball seisei. this way, even if order-sol gets in, he'll eat both 6p and the ball. (remember ball = +defense)

ball seisei - order-sol is scared of balls, period.

Anti-Air-

6P - best anti-air dammit

DHM S - good anti-ground and anti-air. (beats order sol jump, bandit revolver,rock it)

5H/2H - counter-hit on air, gives you a free combo okizeme. i find this setup good, but you have to know the max distance of order-sol's jump first. and when the distance is right, you'll be able to zone him perfectly.

carcass raid H - corner pressure. zoning midscreen?? (risk of getting hit by force break)

Moves that can be backdashd:

bandit revolver

gunblaze(mid, corner)

jH(yes, this is why we see japanese order-sols doing jp,jp,jp,jp)

Strategy:

Close range:

Since we are dealing with this fast fucker, its best to be defensive and wait until you see an opening then punish. Also its not good to use slow moves near order-sol unless its guaranteed to hit. Remember that one okizeme from order-sol can cost you half of your lifebar so be careful to whiff moves. Mashing 6P and 2S alternately won't help you at all. One wrong guess and its combo frenzy for Order-Sol. Also, note that OS's 2D goes thru 2S,5S,6P and its faster than our own 2D. If 2D CH or connects, its combo time for OS. And as for the ball strategy, i leave it up to you.

Also try to whiff OS's SV bec it'll be annoying later on if they keep on spam SV. And when they noticed that SV always getting punished theyll be scared to use it again unless you throw out a slow move like 6H/dubious curve. I think SV wont hit an FRCD dubious curve. hmm depends on the timing i guess

Zoning

Order-sol fight can be frustrating since he's fast so we have to retaliate a lot and evade his close up attempts. We need to 5P a ball either pball or sball to stop order-sol from running or getting close to you(i think he runs faster than chipp). Or you can just wait and surround your ground and air with balls(K,S and H,K) to scare em.

Corner Pressure

In order to win we need a solid corner pressure (2s, ball seisei S, 2s, ball seisei S). But i usually just summon p ball and punch it all day(corner) when OS is on low health. You can also try N-O's style of whiffing SV(n-o intentionally whiffs the 6H close to order-sol)

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Good stuff. I want to emphasize the fact that you have to understand HoS's max jump range (max attack range) to be able to zone him. Stinger Aims can be punished from a pretty far distance, so make sure you're doing it far enough. Don't try to 6P his j.HS unless you do it early enough. I didn't know that you could just backdash j.HS, I'll have to try that (that move scares the shit out of me). Other random notes (that may have been pointed out, but must be emphasized): -do not spam 6HS, that shit will get SV'd all day. -do not attempt to fight HoS close-range: you will lose. -easiest way to deal with HoS close up? Don't let him get in! :P -zone with 5S/2S/SA/5P and 6PIng balls but WATCH for anti-air opportunities. As soon as HoS feels like he can't approach you from the ground, he WILL jump. Catch him with a 6H or 6P depending on distance. -don't get too predictable with your pokes (or at least have a ball for protection), because he can running 2D under a pball/SA or running SV through your farther pokes. -if you're insane like N-O you can airthrow them all the time :O

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Too much to quote. Anyways, if you're airthrowing an OS consistently that OS player is a moron, you don't have N-O skills. OS's basic jump is pretty much unthrowable. I'm not quite sure, but I think OS can get better rewards against 6H rather than just a SV. Oh well, if OS is lazy he'll use SV yeah. OS is not required to jump at Venom to get in, if you whiff anything with no balls out OS can Ri in, tag you for +3 and start an offensive, varying from fafnir to throws. If you actually use stinger aim be sure to FRC it or you'll eat a j.H on counterhit, and yes OS will IAD to make that happen. When OS jumps at you you can 6P, but he can doublejump it, so you'll have to mix with delays and stuff. Backdashing OS's j.H from his basic jump is pointless as OS goes from an offensive state to a neutral state immediately: it ends up being neutral or slightly in Venom's advantage on the charts, but any close situation is always in OS's favor, even if it isn't. "jH - beats most of OS shit" except when OS is actually paying attention, any jump against OS is j.Pable, use this move too often and he'll start j.Ping away, oh and he can crash land on you if you didn't jump with j.H via option select. For the ground moves again, if you whiff them with no balls flying towards OS, he'll just race back in with Ri, you're going to have to sweep or something like that and you don't like what he's got in store for that. Dunno what DHM S means. There's only a few reasons for OS to use SVs, to skim your offense isn't one of them. Any good OS will only SV when your body is in range or you have been poking in his nose in every semi neutral situation. Reasons for OS to SV are to end your pressure(remember he'll mix this up), to punish close range TK attack attempts and to punish throw attempts. OS has no reason against Venom to use it as a firewall since Venom's whiffed pokes suck so much already:P Corner pressure: don't do it, you'll die; he can pretty much do whatever he pleases against you to get out varying from SVing to FD+IGing. If you keep doing 2S S-ball repeat he can IG the ball, 1F jump your ass(forward of course) and knock you on the head with j.H. You're not off that bad with the combo, there's 1 or 2 venoms that took the j.H from starting position at the start of the round and the round was pretty much over after that. Trying to bait OS on his own jumping range doesn't work too well on experienced OS players, even if they fall for it once, they will not fall for it again. Now that I'm done with the annoying part, lets start with the good stuff XD OS can do rushdown and a bit of runaway(but not that well), if there's one thing he cannot do, its zoning. What you want to do with Venom is make him guess where he can and cannot move and preferably give him the idea that he cannot move anywhere at all. A simple P-ball 5P vs P-ball 6P mixup helps immensely with that. If OS wants to move by the ground you force him in the air by shooting balls at him directly(keep the D-ball in handy in case he tries to GB-sneak his way in), while in the air you use 6P to counter his basic jump in or delayed 6P to counter his doublejump in. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES TRY TO INTERCEPT OS, VENOM CANNOT DO IT, also staying above OS doesn't warrant your safety: SV becomes safe, you set yourself up for AA GB shenanigans and even stuff like a simple 5H can kill you if you guessed (your j.H for example) wrong. It can happen that you're no longer left with enough space to do ballsummons, in that case zone carefully only do moves to hit OS, not to get them guarded or whiffed, because if you do he can turn the situation around really quickly. If you somehow make the wrong choice(OS made the right one) and he ends up closer to you, you can either BS your way out, or... BS your way out or die. Once OS gets momentum on you, you are dead. There isn't really such a thing as punishing his pressure since all his stuff leaves him at advantage or very minor disadvantage. There's moments where OS can choose to dash, anticipating those situations is your best bet on getting out; at the same time, its also your best bet in eating a CH for over 50% life combo. OS can use any move as such a setup, but the general ones are CC, l1&2BHB, l1Ri, l2-3BRP, 2S and 2P; l3BHB doesn't belong in this list as that will always be a closed gap, which you can't do anything in. With l3BHB OS is keen on playing overhead vs low game on you, he'll have to wait till after the l3BHB to throw you. Having experienced the Venom matchup quite a bit, I wouldn't really say Venom vs OS is a 5.5 - 4.5 matchup for Venom. OS has a lot of ways to bullshit Venom while Venom lacks the actual tools to counter that bullshit. Oh, this is fairly minor but anyways: do not chase your DAs to melee OS, he will just IG it and DAA you if you do that.

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Thanks for the reverse insight, reaVer. I see most of that happening, especially the part about not FRCing a long-ranged Stinger Aim for a free IAD j.HS CH. Corner pressure really doesn't work that well against HoS yea, and I also can't seem to agree with the 5.5-4.5 ratio (not sure why N-O put is as such, I have a much harder time against HoS than others in the cast). Also, note that the timing is super-strict on throw > x.dubious for whatever reason on HoS. (as for the note on N-O airthrowing, the matches I've seen he usually air-throws a HoS that is trying to IAD escape pressure)

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wow thanks a lot reaver, i was waiting for you to come here

Corner pressure: don't do it, you'll die; he can pretty much do whatever he pleases against you to get out varying from SVing to FD+IGing. If you keep doing 2S S-ball repeat he can IG the ball, 1F jump your ass(forward of course) and knock you on the head with j.H. You're not off that bad with the combo, there's 1 or 2 venoms that took the j.H from starting position at the start of the round and the round was pretty much over after that.

anyway, 2s-ball pressure is in our favor since we can wait for the jump/ib before going for another summon :D

there's 1 or 2 venoms that took the j.H from starting position at the start of the round and the round was pretty much over after that.

which venom are you talking about?? anyway, yess you are exactly right. you have to make the right choices or else your meatt XD

Backdashing OS's j.H from his basic jump is pointless as OS goes from an offensive state to a neutral state immediately: it ends up being neutral or slightly in Venom's advantage on the charts, but any close situation is always in OS's favor, even if it isn't.

works for me though since i can throw OS out after backdashing,, but i dont really do it a lot since its not really the best thing to do. i only do it in tight situations, like when im cornered.

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wow thanks a lot reaver, i was waiting for you to come here

anyway, 2s-ball pressure is in our favor since we can wait for the jump/ib before going for another summon :D

Lets just keep it at: its not as fearsome to OS as it might be to other characters XD

which venom are you talking about?? anyway, yess you are exactly right. you have to make the right choices or else your meatt XD

Two anonymous Sanma victims.

works for me though since i can throw OS out after backdashing,, but i dont really do it a lot since its not really the best thing to do. i only do it in tight situations, like when im cornered.

If OS did his jump right, you cannot throw him if you evade the j.H, he can jump or counterthrow before that. If you got someone that keeps doing it wrong, that is his problem.

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Alright, a couple things from me: As far as corner pressure not working on OS goes, I'm gonna say you're way off. I mean, any character can IB and 1F jump out, but there's a reason you don't see people doing that shit against the good Venoms in vids. A smart player will mix up his pressure options, and Venom has too many of them for you to just assume there's only one way he'll go about pinning you down. Also, j.HS cannot punish a whiffed 2S out of 2S, S ball pressure. The Venom will alsway have time to block. As far as SV goes, it's really not even that good of a DP to begin with. 12F startup at lvl1, 10F at lvl2? Get the fuck out of here. Moreover, if you whiff that shit or it gets baited (and trust me, I've been baiting DPs ever since XX), OS is going to get fucked in the mouth. Block, walk forward, 1hit 5S©, 6P, 6HS,->oh noes. Not enough time for you to AC and FRC. I mean, the fact that he has a DP means the Venom might have to proceed a little differently, but it's really not that awesome of an idea. As far as ground control goes, OS will be more dominant up close and of course Venom will have more control from afar. But honestly, what makes it hard for Venom up close isn't the ground attacks. OS can't really do much once you get him outside of sweep distance (pointed out to me by Destin). He has to use either RI or jumping to get back in, and who cares really. The problem is that j.HS stomps the shit out of every move Venom has. Regardless of when you time your AA attempt, the best you can really hope for is a trade (definitely not in your favor). Once the Venom player realizes this, HOS can pretty much jump in for free or effectively do whatever else he wants, so you have to keep him out of that range or under pressure. That is by far my biggest hiccup as far as trying to figure out this matchup goes. Air-throwing can work, but it's not really worth the risk of getting CH IMO. Better to try and get enough room to run away and put some distance between you. As far as those vids go, all that told me is don't open with S Carcass, which is a big "NO SHIT" IMO. 6P will beat all jump in attempts at the start of a match, and 2S beats his ground normals AFAIK (also recovers fast enough that the jump-ins won't be able to punish it, as pointed out earlier).

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CH j.H out of corner pressure is probably a buffered ball then being linked in. I don't care, people die if they try this kind of shit on OS, OS moves too fast on the ground and in air and has too much control for you to be attempting that shit on. If you believe you can keep OS down that way go ahead, but if you play an OS player that is actually good you will fail. Why would startup matter for SV? Its invincible for like 12 frames anyways... You can bait dps all you want, that's exactly what OS wants, because when you are baiting, you're not attacking -> wrong bait = offense gone; having a SV hit you = offense gone. Right out of sweep distance OS can still do a lot, 2S from him still stuffs all your normals that would otherwise reach him and nearly all special moves would still reach Venom, not just Ri. Next to that, OS can dash attack pretty fast. 6P deals with j.H if you do 6P properly, some guy can consistently get me with that move if he sees it coming, if you don't know how to bait jump ins, that's your problem. One of those CH j.H was on a 2S, it was also the third time (or more) Venom came out with it and it was the second time he ate a CH from there. So you're not gonna use S carcass but will 6P instead? Good! jump in, doublejump to make 6P whiff and in comes the j.H! Surprisingly I told you in my first post what the matchup is about, yet you seem to be passing that off as bullshit and then you mention you don't actually know the matchup... wtf?

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lolz i forgot to mention a lot of things.. good thing reaver is here :D ed: oh i forgot to mention that 6P is a good CH trade against SV lolzz since both of you gets KD(tip of 6P). so i find it useful when you're in the corner, summoning Pball, 6p,pball,6p in the corner lulzz but you don't just spam it all day of course. you can follow it with a 2s ball pressure or anything that is safe from SV range (well assuming that OS doesn't dash SV)

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Maybe the Venoms you've been playing don't know what the fuck they're doing, but that N-otoko blockstring combos on hit when done right. Unless you're gonna do some magic and jump out between the 2S and the ball actually hitting (not possible, mind you), you are NOT gonna hit Venom for the next 2S. You know, assuming you even get out of blockstun. And are you really asking me why startup on a DP matters? The more time it takes you to be hitting, the more time I have to recover from whatever the fuck I was doing before. That would seem kinda obvious. The invul is completely irrelevant, as I'd hope it'd at least have enough to cover it's own damn startup. As mentioned before, I'm a lot more concerned with putting distance between me and OS when I do this match-up than just trying to land a few quick hits. OS 2S range might be a tiny bit longer than 2D, but it's nothing serious (also, it definitely trade with Venom 2S at best). BHB won't move you in any unless it's lvl2 or 3. BRP advances and it's a fairly fast overhead, but at that range I don't have to be concerned with blocking low at all and lvl1 BRP leaves you at disadvantage. Gunblaze is just a shitty idea if you're only trying to close the gap. Unless you intend to blow your charge just to get inside, jumping and RI are far and away your best options. Also, maybe if the Venom you play against knows when you're gonna jump, you're just getting predictable. I was pointing out the fact that Venom is NOT gonna beat j.HS with 6P on reaction to the jump. If you're eating 6Ps because the guy playing you can read all your shit, then that's your problem. Also, I'm calling bullshit on Venom eating a CH j.HS at the start of the match for 2Sing. Tell me which vid and give me the time. And there's no way in hell you're gonna double jump to punish a 6P with j.HS. If anything, he'd have time to whiff it and put out another 6P before you even got in j.HS range..... Finally, I said that I don't know what to do about j.HS. Clearly I know this matchup better than you do, or at least I'm willing to go test my shit before I start running my mouth online. Maybe I won't blow off your posts when you get your facts straight. Besides, they don't even take you seriously on the Sol forums last I check, so why do you think I'm gonna assume you know what you're talking about enough to say that Japanese players are wrong about their match-up analysis? If this post sounds hostile, it's prolly because it is. You might wanna check yourself next time you run up in someone else's forum talking like like you're some kinda expert and everything you say is the gospel, especially when I don't see your name in any rankings. Maybe you didn't mean to sound like a dick, but you might wanna work on your presentation if that's the case.

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Cornering OS won't work? That's a funny one, seeing as how that's probably one of the worst situations an OS player could be in.

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Yeah, wtf is everyone saying that cornering OS won't work? As long as you're outside lvl1 Gunblaze range in your gaps, you pretty much rape. Getting him into the corner is another matter entirely. And why is reaVer here?

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@cabinetsmasher

who said that?

I've said it before. It's mostly because there's a new HoS player around here and he randomly goes on SV spamming streaks to get me conditioned. I haven't played him more than a few times, so I haven't gotten used to bating it in certain situations, which means I'm eating a lot more SVs than I should - that and prematurely ending my pressure because I'm scared of it (a connected SV usually means the reverse from my pressure into his berserker mode). Now that I know 2S-ball pressure is the best option, I will definitely be using it.

On the other hand, there's also ANOTHER player trying to learn HoS and I have no trouble against because he doesn't spam SV. Go figure.

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@MCR yes, 2S ball presure is the shit.. doesn't spam SV? so he probably SV when you're in range or when you're poking with 5S,6H? when baiting SV its really not the best option to dash in then FD just to bait a friggin SV you know, unless you are fighting a SV spammer.. bec if you guessed wrong, its berserk time for OS

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