[P4AU] Aigis General Gameplay Discussion

[Complexity]

Here's a sweep OS for roll:

 

xx j.b j.2ac j.2ab j.a

 

The j.a is in case your j.b hits so you still get a combo.

 

Hopefully someone finds an easier OS.

[KingofCups]

I messed with S. Aigis and her grab has interesting application, but I'm not sure to what level of usefulness this is. You can grab them then Orgia or Spear super in SB. Not sure what can be done off the Orgia part, but with the spear super, they get it, then the bomb explodes, so they don't fly to the top of the screen. Also, I found that you can AoA Grab Super haha

[Syklone]

Guise.....Ken might be a problem. You literally have to block all day and wait for the golden opportunity to get in on him. And when you get in STAY IN!!!

[Syklone]

Also 2B and 5D the shit out of Scooby and shaggy.

[irfaanator]

Anybody got matchup advice against ken? Not sure what to do as of right now

[Pen_Ninja]

Has anybody experimented with 5D in the Ken MU? I feel like it'd mess with his dog usage a lot since everything but 2C moves in a way that it'd be impossible not to hit the shield on the way to Aigis.

I'd assume it'd hit low enough to actually hit Koromaru and Ken would then either need to block or commit to an attack that'd should to either let Aigis in or giver her time to murder some dog.

[Anne]

No Ken has stopped me from just using 2B and movement to not care about the dog yet, so I have no idea really.

[irfaanator]

No Ken has stopped me from just using 2B and movement to not care about the dog yet, so I have no idea really

 

Guess I'll have to see a video to truly understand

[Syklone]

Guess I'll have to see a video to truly understand

Good, unpredictable movement can change any matchup to be in your favor. How are they going to use their setups or whatever if you're too slippery and they can't catch you. 2B hits the dog consistently. But you can't abuse it too much as in any MU. Mix it up with orgia dash-ins high enough to evade his ground normals so the only way to truly stop you is psychic 2B if you're being truly unpredictable :3

[Pen_Ninja]

Careful with just flying in.

Ken has a lot of moves that accidentally deal with jump-ins.

 

2C is good for a lot of things and often anti-airs

5B on whiff has an automatic follow-up that's probably Ken's best anti-air, especially for the forward-ish angle you'll be coming in at.

214C/D makes the dog jump and spin which will pretty much cover the entire trajectory that you're likely to be taking.

 

These moves don't really have to be thrown out with the intention of anti-airing you but the way they work, they'll probably get the job done anyway.

[Anne]

He has good buttons. I'm saying I haven't found a Ken who can directly answer me using 2B and fly to avoid dealing with the dog on the ground. I'm sure they can, just no Kens I've fought do it, so I don't know how the MU is actually played.

[mixedmethods]

Anybody got matchup advice against ken? Not sure what to do as of right now

Ken is annoying but two combos will kill him. Don't get impatient. I play a little Ken and helped compile his info, so this may help.

Collapsed: Huge wall of text.:

First: KOROMARU IS ALWAYS A MID STRIKE. It doesn't matter what it looks like; the dog is a mid. Block based on Ken, not the dog.

He has four overheads: AoA, j.A (hits three times, all hits are overheads), j.B, and j.2B. AoA is 32f start-up and has an incredibly telegraphed animation; it's also Fatal Recovery. You shouldn't be getting hit by this. He goes airborne for his AoA, so in pressure, AoA > OMC is possible if he can't crack you open. His only lows are his sweep and 2A, which can't be canceled into itself (nor can he do 2A > 5A or 5A > 2A). Generally, as long as he times the dog right, his pressure is a true blockstring, but the "skeleton" you're looking for is 2A/5A > 2B(1) > 5B -- it's punishable only if the dog isn't out, but if you see a Ken using this frame, don't mash. His 5AA is -10 on block, so you can disrespect that; his 5AAA is +1 or -17 depending on whether Koro is on play. If he's doing any of this without Koro, he's begging to be killed. 5B can be swept under if he's poking mindlessly.

In Orgia, you can backdash on wakeup to get out of his set-ups, primarily meaty 214C oki. You can also use Orgia backdash to avoid his Awakening super if he mashes it on wakeup; it's 7f start up, so you can actually bait it and beat it. Don't hang out at superjump height -- you risk getting DP'd with a supercancel into Fire Breath.

He lacks a good anti-air in exchange for great jump normals. If you see him whiff 5B, he's trying to bait a jump-in -- on whiff, the move has a second hit. 2B is useless as a reactive anti-air because the first hit is a mid and airblockable; our j.B should stuff it before he gets his head invuln frames or even the first hit out. It can tag you out of jump start up if you're close, so backdash and punish if he likes to hit buttons. His j.B is big and stupid but if you can deal with Shab's j.B, then you can deal with his. His j.A is his best option against jump-ins, as it's fast, has a big forward hitbox, hits three times, and lets him maintain his spacing. In Orgia, tri-jump or use j.AB. He doesn't have the life to hit buttons during Orgia (no one should be hitting buttons during Orgia...), so if you catch him once, you should be taking off 4k, which is roughly half his health. (8.5k.)

5D and the rest of the D series don't save you from blocking depending on the set-up and/or how smart the Ken is. If the dog takes the hit, Ken can jump the counter, poke it, or block it. If Ken triggers the counter, the dog can rush in. Strangely, j.2D actually hits (and bodies) Koromaru's 2C (which low profiles a lot of things) at certain spacings. If the Ken is any good, he won't commit to an attack himself while Koro takes care of the shield (and vice-versa), but if he's bad, then he or the dog will trigger the counter and both of them will eat the attack. Ken's moves have too much recovery.

2B will hit Koromaru out of anything he's doing, which leaves Ken vulnerable if he's hit a button. You can also style with Vulcan Cannon SB if the dog and the kid are separated.

j.C is still Jesus. Ken's j.A can stuff it, but only if you're reckless. As for his jumps, low-hitting j.A and j.B beat his j.A, j.B, and j.2B; his j.B is slow enough to lose to our j.C. If he's going air to ground, you can beat him air-to-air with j.A or j.B; if you're the one going air to ground, j.B will hit him and the dog.

The biggest nuisance is Charge Thrust (the two-hit move where he sends out his spear), as it Fatals and can hit airborne opponents. If you see him go for Charge Thrust raw, it's one of two things: (1) the player doesn't know what they're doing; or (2) you hit a button and he's trying to punish you. You can generally jump it on reaction; if he's using it without a hit confirm from 5B, he's asking for you to put him out of his misery. The A version is death (for him) on block; the B version is slower but harder to punish with our range issues; SB is safe. If he gatlings into the follow-up persona attack on block, you have a free 5A > jc to take one of his cards.

If he uses Mediarama without sweeping you, you can 2B or, you know, IAD in and j.B him. The recovery is awful. It's not going to heal him much, but it does heal the dog.

He has range, but he needs the dog to cover his recovery -- this isn't a Narukami 5B issue. If he's pressuring you, just block low unless you see him jump or go for AoA. He has a throw but it has unique properties; I detailed it on his wiki page. Otherwise, just block if he's applying pressure. He wants you to hit buttons so he can punish you. Sooner or later, he has to reset pressure. The dog does have recovery -- the closer the dog is to you, the more plus Koro is on block. If he does 214C/D (flying Koro ball) to cover his approach, 2B stuffs that, as he has to wait for the dog to recover. Also, he has no dash cancels, so everything Ken does has to be covered by the dog or gatlinged into (relative) safety. If he's just hitting buttons, punish him. You can close gaps quickly, so don't let him think whiffing 5B is safe.

Fire Breath C can be rolled; D and SB are multi-hit. That move starts from Koro's position, not his, so unless the dog is on top of you, you're going to see the C variant. If he lands DP, that's his best super-cancel; Thunder Reign is Fatal Recovery and the timing on the cancel means you usually tech out of the super (which is Fatal Recovery); Ultimate Cross/Awakening super is also finicky.

VR covered 214C oki and what it loses to, which you can find in the Oki/Mix-ups/Gimmicks thread in Ken's forum.

If you're pressuring him, make sure the dog is offscreen or with Ken; if Koro isn't with Ken, Ken can take a hit to mash C and the dog will hit you from behind, resetting the situation in his favour. Koro is invuln when he's being removed (i.e., when Ken is holding D). Yes, the dog is annoying but he's not Asterius. Ken has bad options on defence, so if he has meter, watch out for his Guard Cancel -- it's big and knocks down if he counter hits with it. He may try Thunder Reign or Ultimate Cross as reversals, but those are high-risk options, particularly the former.

I don't see why this MU should be particularly bad. Yes, he has great jumps and very good pressure. We also have great jumps, as well as fantastic mobility and bullets. His left-right is very obnoxious (but fun to do) and the dog is a pain, but two Orgia combos can kill him, or, hell, if you see him commit to something with enough recovery, Goddess Shield. I killed a Ken with Spear after he whiffed a 2A and he died outside Awakening. It's a new MU, possibly annoying, but it's not Narukami or Minazuki.

I forgot to mention this: j.2B helps kill the dog.

[Syklone]

Nice write up. Very informative!

[Syklone]

Ken is annoying but two combos will kill him. Don't get impatient. I play a little Ken and helped compile his info, so this may help.

Collapsed: Huge wall of text.:

First: KOROMARU IS ALWAYS A MID STRIKE. It doesn't matter what it looks like; the dog is a mid. Block based on Ken, not the dog.

He has four overheads: AoA, j.A (hits three times, all hits are overheads), j.B, and j.2B. AoA is 32f start-up and has an incredibly telegraphed animation; it's also Fatal Recovery. You shouldn't be getting hit by this. He goes airborne for his AoA, so in pressure, AoA > OMC is possible if he can't crack you open. His only lows are his sweep and 2A, which can't be canceled into itself (nor can he do 2A > 5A or 5A > 2A). Generally, as long as he times the dog right, his pressure is a true blockstring, but the "skeleton" you're looking for is 2A/5A > 2B(1) > 5B -- it's punishable only if the dog isn't out, but if you see a Ken using this frame, don't mash. His 5AA is -10 on block, so you can disrespect that; his 5AAA is +1 or -17 depending on whether Koro is on play. If he's doing any of this without Koro, he's begging to be killed. 5B can be swept under if he's poking mindlessly.

In Orgia, you can backdash on wakeup to get out of his set-ups, primarily meaty 214C oki. You can also use Orgia backdash to avoid his Awakening super if he mashes it on wakeup; it's 7f start up, so you can actually bait it and beat it. Don't hang out at superjump height -- you risk getting DP'd with a supercancel into Fire Breath.

He lacks a good anti-air in exchange for great jump normals. If you see him whiff 5B, he's trying to bait a jump-in -- on whiff, the move has a second hit. 2B is useless as a reactive anti-air because the first hit is a mid and airblockable; our j.B should stuff it before he gets his head invuln frames or even the first hit out. It can tag you out of jump start up if you're close, so backdash and punish if he likes to hit buttons. His j.B is big and stupid but if you can deal with Shab's j.B, then you can deal with his. His j.A is his best option against jump-ins, as it's fast, has a big forward hitbox, hits three times, and lets him maintain his spacing. In Orgia, tri-jump or use j.AB. He doesn't have the life to hit buttons during Orgia (no one should be hitting buttons during Orgia...), so if you catch him once, you should be taking off 4k, which is roughly half his health. (8.5k.)

5D and the rest of the D series don't save you from blocking depending on the set-up and/or how smart the Ken is. If the dog takes the hit, Ken can jump the counter, poke it, or block it. If Ken triggers the counter, the dog can rush in. Strangely, j.2D actually hits (and bodies) Koromaru's 2C (which low profiles a lot of things) at certain spacings. If the Ken is any good, he won't commit to an attack himself while Koro takes care of the shield (and vice-versa), but if he's bad, then he or the dog will trigger the counter and both of them will eat the attack. Ken's moves have too much recovery.

2B will hit Koromaru out of anything he's doing, which leaves Ken vulnerable if he's hit a button. You can also style with Vulcan Cannon SB if the dog and the kid are separated.

j.C is still Jesus. Ken's j.A can stuff it, but only if you're reckless. As for his jumps, low-hitting j.A and j.B beat his j.A, j.B, and j.2B; his j.B is slow enough to lose to our j.C. If he's going air to ground, you can beat him air-to-air with j.A or j.B; if you're the one going air to ground, j.B will hit him and the dog.

The biggest nuisance is Charge Thrust (the two-hit move where he sends out his spear), as it Fatals and can hit airborne opponents. If you see him go for Charge Thrust raw, it's one of two things: (1) the player doesn't know what they're doing; or (2) you hit a button and he's trying to punish you. You can generally jump it on reaction; if he's using it without a hit confirm from 5B, he's asking for you to put him out of his misery. The A version is death (for him) on block; the B version is slower but harder to punish with our range issues; SB is safe. If he gatlings into the follow-up persona attack on block, you have a free 5A > jc to take one of his cards.

If he uses Mediarama without sweeping you, you can 2B or, you know, IAD in and j.B him. The recovery is awful. It's not going to heal him much, but it does heal the dog.

He has range, but he needs the dog to cover his recovery -- this isn't a Narukami 5B issue. If he's pressuring you, just block low unless you see him jump or go for AoA. He has a throw but it has unique properties; I detailed it on his wiki page. Otherwise, just block if he's applying pressure. He wants you to hit buttons so he can punish you. Sooner or later, he has to reset pressure. The dog does have recovery -- the closer the dog is to you, the more plus Koro is on block. If he does 214C/D (flying Koro ball) to cover his approach, 2B stuffs that, as he has to wait for the dog to recover. Also, he has no dash cancels, so everything Ken does has to be covered by the dog or gatlinged into (relative) safety. If he's just hitting buttons, punish him. You can close gaps quickly, so don't let him think whiffing 5B is safe.

Fire Breath C can be rolled; D and SB are multi-hit. That move starts from Koro's position, not his, so unless the dog is on top of you, you're going to see the C variant. If he lands DP, that's his best super-cancel; Thunder Reign is Fatal Recovery and the timing on the cancel means you usually tech out of the super (which is Fatal Recovery); Ultimate Cross/Awakening super is also finicky.

VR covered 214C oki and what it loses to, which you can find in the Oki/Mix-ups/Gimmicks thread in Ken's forum.

If you're pressuring him, make sure the dog is offscreen or with Ken; if Koro isn't with Ken, Ken can take a hit to mash C and the dog will hit you from behind, resetting the situation in his favour. Koro is invuln when he's being removed (i.e., when Ken is holding D). Yes, the dog is annoying but he's not Asterius. Ken has bad options on defence, so if he has meter, watch out for his Guard Cancel -- it's big and knocks down if he counter hits with it. He may try Thunder Reign or Ultimate Cross as reversals, but those are high-risk options, particularly the former.

I don't see why this MU should be particularly bad. Yes, he has great jumps and very good pressure. We also have great jumps, as well as fantastic mobility and bullets. His left-right is very obnoxious (but fun to do) and the dog is a pain, but two Orgia combos can kill him, or, hell, if you see him commit to something with enough recovery, Goddess Shield. I killed a Ken with Spear after he whiffed a 2A and he died outside Awakening. It's a new MU, possibly annoying, but it's not Narukami or Minazuki.

I forgot to mention this: j.2B helps kill the dog.

Sorry for dub post but it's pretty relevant to this Ken talk. You can LITERALLY kill ken for DP'ing even once no need for awakening or anything, just about 25 heat.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3DTghEqRcc

[mixedmethods]

Sorry for dub post but it's pretty relevant to this Ken talk. You can LITERALLY kill ken for DP'ing even once no need for awakening or anything, just about 25 heat.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3DTghEqRcc

Amazing. A+, would lulz again. That's evil and beautiful.

Remind me to add you on PSN so you can body me again. We don't have a Naoto in the training lobbies, so MU experience would be great. :D

[mixedmethods]

My turn to double post: I set up MU threads for the entire cast, so feel free to start posting. I'll be adding info from this thread and the Skype group.

[Syklone]

You should paste your Ken write-up in there.

[Anne]

Hi yes I finally have all the non orgia fuzzy options completely locked down. This only works on the tall characters like Narukami, Yosuke, Mitsuru, Marge, etc. Really simple set up.

 

Jump and immediately hit j.B, then hit j.B again once you've recovered. Immediately jump cancel and hit j.B again and you get a fuzzy high, or land and 2A for a low.

 

Stupid easy to do. After j.2B you can jump right when they land and do it, then you get the safejump timing and the perfect height for the fuzzy mix up. On hit or block you'll do a slightly delayed j.C(2). On block it's a string, on hit you follow up with sj.A and then do j.2B route. This not new in any way, but you guys should know it because you can do this all the time.

 

In strings you can go for this from a jump cancelled 5A. If you're opponent crouches you get the whiff j.B then have timing for the j.B. We used to cover this with j.2B, but why stop doing that? Because midscreen j.2B loses to fuzzy jump option selects, it takes awhile to come out. the j.B actually just hits them and lets's you get a follow up. If they decide to stand, you get a blocked j.B and you just cancel into j.C. If for some reason they decide they wanna stand and get hit you can do the j.C(2) > sj.A combo just fine. again, the reason to do this now over j.2B is because it's faster and fuzzy jump OS exists, and it beats certain types of mash clean. You can't go for this all the time, it's def not safe so if you do it every time you'll just get 2Bed or DPed or whatever, hell you might even get OSed in a different way for doing it. You should mix it in with other options to stop your opponent from OSing you though, since the basic anti-pressure OSes beat all of our pressure opens pretty clean.

 

Basically it's a neat option that if your opponent is down to block or autopilot OS you get to do for free.

[Giggles454]

Tear it up in KiT, Anne!

[Anne]

Tear it up in KiT, Anne!

 

I can't enter, I'm running 4 tournaments in it. KiT is one of my babies. I promise you'll get to see some of me though.

 

Also shameless plug,. I started streaming for the first time today and would like to do it more, so check it out maybe?

[Giggles454]

Yea, tried to check out the archive, but it wasn't recorded?

[mixedmethods]

I would also like to see the archive. :/

So some news! I asked Sourenga to translate the Aigis changes noted here, and, well, we seem to be in for a ride. Italics are my notes.

* Orgia Gauge decreases a bit faster (Well, we saw this coming.)

* Furious Action: Wallbounce removed

* 2A, 5B, Sweep are jump cancelable in Orgia Mode.

* 5B: Gatling route to 5B added (Not sure what to make of this.)

* 2C: Now hits crouchers

* 5AAAA>j.2B>j.B>5B>2C works even if 2C is the 16th hit (What ever this is supposed to mean...) (New optimal mode change routes?)

* Megido: Slam works the way it worked previously (Exact words are "in the previous game", but does this refer to P4A or 1.00?), damage reduced. Same Attack correction is more loose.

* C Megido can be connected to D Megido (Combined with the prior note: proration change means meterless double Megido is back? OH LORD. :: )

* Change: SB-version rises higher

* Radical: Damage nerfed. A-version has faster bullet speed. B-version now starts to shoot at higher altitude

* Vulcan: You can hold the button to slowly descend. Damage reduced. A-version has faster bullet speed, B-version has its angle changed. It now reaches higher

* Orion: You can use the lever to control Aigis' movement. (Useless super now slightly less useless! Maybe.)

* Back Boost: Consumes more of Orgia Gauge

* Air Boost: Latter half of the move is cancelable to Normals and Skills

Xie Tweeted that Aigis's damage is down and his speculation was a 10% combo rate drop, which would give us the lowest combo rate in the game. (Which is fair.) Assuming Xie's impressions make final build (along with the rest of these changes), it looks like we're getting less Orgia but more meterless damage in Orgia. I'm guessing that instead of "mode change into single Megido > mix-up if necessary > double Megido +/- mortar loops > repeat until opponent is dead," we're losing some gauge but gaining meterless double Megido as a trade, along with jump cancels because ... reasons (why the fuck not).

I may be misinterpreting this, though, and we won't know anything until we see 2.0 in action, but it looks like we're getting utility on some of our less useful moves and some buffs, while losing some damage and gauge in exchange. Though how much our damage goes down depends on how much we get off meterless double Megido (god help us if we get triple back) > EX-double Megido > deactivate > repeat.

[Syklone]

Is that 5B change a typo? 5B into 5B? Does not compute.

[Chumaralupa]

Most likely it means "A change for 5B: New gatling route added", aka a way to gatling into 5B that didn't exist before.

[Syklone]

What like off sweep? Kappa. Hashtag why Arc?