[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[bace]

Discuss all Elizabeth gameplay related things here. Follow forum rules and keep it friendly and productive!

Elizabeth Move List

Elizabeth Changes

• Health increased to 8000
  
• Once Elizabeth is in awakening, all of her special moves �power up� drastically
  
• New move, Randomizer. Goes into a counter state, then turns the enemy into a card before throwing them away, inflicting Negative Penalty on them afterwards
  
• 5AA > 5C does not gatling
  
• 5B/j.B have more range
  
• 5B, 2AB are hop cancelable
  
• 5BBB Autocombo is Liz's P4A 5AA Autocombo
  
• 2B throw invuln removed, more landing recovery on 2B. The hitbox behind 2B has been strengthened
  
• 2AB low profile buffed
  
• New jump attack, j.2B
  
• Can now charge 2C. 2C will not have guard point for the duration, but will give a much different variation of 5C/5D/2D upon hit. Can be released at any time.
  
• Without 2C flag 5C > 2C may not combo
  
• J.C CH groundbounces
  
• 5D and j.D reach is shorter
  
• j.D faster. Due to j.D range nerf, no longer works as an air to air. J.D does a hit throw also so you can do it in combos
  
• Now able to combo into j.D/5D without spinstate
  
• Unawakened A.Zio startup has gotten slower
  
• Can move while charging B.Zio
  
• Unawakened B.Bufu nerfed, less reach, can't combo after 2C
  
• Maragidyne comes out faster now, number of hits changed
  
• Normal D.Garu has landing recovery
  
• Garudyne is fatal counter recovery
  
• A Concentrate - No blue health, no recovery. B Concentrate - Blue health, recovery. SB Concentrate - Blue health, recovery time, health to gauge recovery is better than other versions
  
• A Diarahan same as P4A's. B Diarahan charge possible. SB Diarahan charge possible, projectile invuln, recovery slow
  
• D Wail - 2K min damage. SB wail - Long reach, will not grab point blank opponents, did 7800 with 2C and fear raw hit.
  

Edited January 23, 2014 by bace

[bace]

They already found a game breaking bug with Elizabeth :X. Doing SB Maragidyne into Randomizer makes the other character on the screen disappear permanently for the round. http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm22350517.

Edited November 28, 2013 by bace

[LegendaryRath]

They already found a game breaking bug with Elizabeth :X. Doing SB Maragidyne into Randomizer makes the other character on the screen disappear permanently for the round. http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm22350517.

seems legit. Get the lead, do this, time them out!

[Elochai]

I have mixed feelings about her persona cards after watching some gameplay. On one hand, Elizabeth has a lot of "chances" to open her opponent up with Thanatos, which I like (because I'm a scrub and I mash 5C/5D). However, once Elizabeth is persona broken, she has to wait a ridiculously long time to regain cards. It's still super early, but I'm interested in how this is going to turn out.

On a different note, j.C floor bounce looks sweet.

Still waiting on JP hop cancel mix ups.

[Dazardz]

Maragidyne C looks much more practical, and something that an actual boss battle character might have. It doesn't seem to be spammable from the awakening version I saw, but it's speed is amazing.

A Maziodyne still slimmer than ever. I don't know if Bufu might be useful either. But SB Diarahan... Oh my... it can heal ALL of Liz's health if charged, of course that will never happen though. It does heal fast though and is projectile invulnerable.

I really have no idea where this Liz is going, doesn't seem horrible, but not that good yet. I still place my hopes in Okusan finding some resets.

[Luminos564]

I have mixed feelings about her persona cards after watching some gameplay. On one hand, Elizabeth has a lot of "chances" to open her opponent up with Thanatos, which I like (because I'm a scrub and I mash 5C/5D). However, once Elizabeth is persona broken, she has to wait a ridiculously long time to regain cards. It's still super early, but I'm interested in how this is going to turn out.

I feel like this is simply a much more pronounced double-edged sword for her. One of Lizzie's primary weaknesses in P4A was that she needed Thanatos to do pretty much anything and without him, she might as well throw in the towel for the round. And for the most part this hasn't changed in P4U2. It's like you said: she now has more chances to hack away at the opponent, but she is punished much more severely once she loses those chances. Fortunately, she does have Radomizer/Debilitate now in case she needs to bide some time during Persona Break rather than just wasting SP on Mind Charge to get Thanatos back so that's a plus.

However, I am really liking how they made Awakening benefit her now. Originally, forcing your Awakening wasn't the smartest option for Lizzie because the low health and no real benefits besides access to her only damaging SP skill and Diarahan. In P4U2, Awakening affects her whole gameplan. For example, Maragidyne is normally a really slow move with minimum fire pillars. Post-awakening, the move comes out insanely fast, has more range and gains more use.

While still early, the general look of things is that Lizzie is, for the most part, the same as before. She can deal with someone like Kanji fairly easily, but Mitsuru, Aigis, Yu and even Akihiko are definitely characters she doesn't have an easy time with. Only difference here is that now, unlike before, she has more tools and methods to dealing with them. And if she has a proper set-up, she can even lay waste to them. It is of course, still a bit too early to make a definitive judgement, but I think this version of Lizzie has a lot more potential than before. We just need to see someone bring them to light.

[DairyDude]

A Maziodyne still slimmer than ever. I don't know if Bufu might be useful either. But SB Diarahan... Oh my... it can heal ALL of Liz's health if charged, of course that will never happen though. It does heal fast though and is projectile invulnerable.

Is Bufu still air unblockable?

I was also thinking about how Liz could get a full charged Diarahan or at least charge it more today. If you could paralyze the opponent full screen away with SB Zio, and if they have their persona and/or meter, you could probably get more out of it. Say what could a persona less Yukiko do from full-screen away since SB Diarahan has the projectile invulnerability on it?

I was also wondering if charged B.Zio oki could be done since Liz can move around during it or would the opponent be able to tech in time to get out of it. If it can work, another issue I see is if Thanatos ends up too close to the opponent and can easily be hit out of it, but that could possibly be used to fish out counter hits.

I'm excited to see how Liz turns out this game.

[Dazardz]

Is Bufu still air unblockable?

I was also thinking about how Liz could get a full charged Diarahan or at least charge it more today. If you could paralyze the opponent full screen away with SB Zio, and if they have their persona and/or meter, you could probably get more out of it. Say what could a persona less Yukiko do from full-screen away since SB Diarahan has the projectile invulnerability on it?

I was also wondering if charged B.Zio oki could be done since Liz can move around during it or would the opponent be able to tech in time to get out of it. If it can work, another issue I see is if Thanatos ends up too close to the opponent and can easily be hit out of it, but that could possibly be used to fish out counter hits.

I'm excited to see how Liz turns out this game.

Bufu is most likely still unblockable, but the only great version is the SB version that tracks (whee!)

And it was mentioned in the loketest google doc, that you can get an Oki from Charged B Zio, (even though it's not great) but still. I was wondering what you might be able to do if you were willing to use 25 meter and shoot SB Maziodyne, because you can also move around during the two shots that it gives (looks awesome though.)

The healing, yes can be good against a persona less Yukiko. But what about a Persona less Kanji or Liz... does Kanji have any long ranged physical attacks? Liz doesn't. They are both very slow characters. But SB Diarahan does have a little more recovery than the over healing supers, so it's going to have to be used wisely?

Am I the only that saw SB Ghastly Wail on stream? My controller is going to break just because of fiddling with it, because SB GW looks gdlk. But lets not forget Randomizer/Debilitate, which I'd rather call Debilitate. Forcing negative penalty, oh yes. As long as Liz still has a high damage output. I need a great Liz player to pop out, enough Yosuke and Naoto...

[bace]

I'm actually really excited for her. How fast Maragidyne is now is going to be hilarious in neutral vs a lot of the cast. Also if they fix the bug and you can still somehow combo into randomizer... lol. LETS GO SETUPS WITH NEGATIVE PENALTY APPLIED. So many ideas, too bad we don't get the game until next year summer. Anyway, Okusan is playing Sho at the moment, he was the red and black Sho in the Tokyo Leisureland video.

[Dazardz]

WHAT!? Well that explains his twitter posts being all about Sho...

I just think this new Liz has so many tools and looks really complicated, which means more options and mind games. I wish I could have an arcade version to myself, gotta wait till next summer. I guess I'll get CP while waiting.

[Elochai]

snip

I think it's more disadvantageous, at least in theory. It's not like she has anything super good with C/D buttons to open you up, so as soon as Thanatos goes away (which will probably happen really fast), it's RIP city. I'm not sure about Randomizer, but mind charge only buys you so much time (more of which is needed now).

Maragidyne reminds me of Lambda's Spike Chaser from BB, albeit faster. Perhaps Liz's neutral game will be better in this one.

Why did Okusan jump ship though? Does he not like Liz or something? I thought he had waifu love.

[Dazardz]

Well everybody should be glad that Elizabeth does not have a shadow mode. I'm sure that Thanatos will still break some what easily if we play recklessly, cause I have had situations with my Thanatos losing 3 cards incredibly fast because of bad inputs. Let alone the cards don't begin recovering immediately.

So I'm going to have to play even smarter, because once I lose my cards, the character with the lowest health in the game has to give up the round.

But how does the loss of a good Bufu not make you all cry!? Well we get Maragidyne in return, seems like I can play Nu again. Also happy she has some sort of Oki, with B Zio. Although I'd rather waste 25 meter and have a longer Oki with SB Zio.

[Eshi]

Awakened SB Zio looks SOOOO GOOD. Normal SB Garu hits strangely now, it can be followed up by just holding down like the normal confirm but it looks like the only way to follow up is with 5A/2A. We might need to hold directions now to get an optimal confirm, which kinda sucks.

After a charge 2C, even on block, liz can cancel into another 2C or 5D. Plus she has those changes to her normals, dash cancel 5C. Liz looks so freaking cool in this game.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Eshi

[Luminos564]

I think it's more disadvantageous, at least in theory. It's not like she has anything super good with C/D buttons to open you up, so as soon as Thanatos goes away (which will probably happen really fast), it's RIP city. I'm not sure about Randomizer, but mind charge only buys you so much time (more of which is needed now).

In theory yes, but you have to look at the other side of the coin as well. At 6 cards you have a lot more chances than most to utilize Thanny and as long as you don't do outright dumb stuff like throwing naked 5Cs or charging 2C point blank, then he should last you a lot longer this time. Granted, it IS very dangerous to lose him, but at least this time we have means to defend ourselves somewhat without having to resort to our really poor Furious Action.

Also, case in point:

After a charge 2C, even on block, liz can cancel into another 2C or 5D. Plus she has those changes to her normals, dash cancel 5C. Liz looks so freaking cool in this game.

I feel that the bolded part is especially imperative to Lizzie, since the dash cancel allows us both to apply safer pressure with Thanny since, IIRC, he disappears when you dash cancel 5C. It will likely take some time, but I certainly think that Lizzie has much more to offer this time around. I look forward to the day when a Lizzie player brings out all she can do XD.

[Elochai]

After watching the Damosu Liz matches, I have some new thoughts:

- 2[C] is cool as fuck. It's really exciting to me to see it in action. Perhaps you can condition your opponent with 2[C] > 5D x N, and then bop them with 2[C] > 2C (granted that 2C will still catch jumps). Of course, the opposite brand of conditioning should also apply (ie teaching your opponent not to jump by throwing a lot of 2Cs, and then use 5D).

- 5AA seems to have better utility than the old 5AA. With the old 5AA, aerial hits usually had to be converted into 5AA > j.B > garu. Now it seems like you can just do 5B > stuff.

- 5A > 5AA > 5B > 5BB seems cool as well.

- SB Zio looks amazing, as does 236. The freedom to call a laser and move is much welcomed.

- AoA combo ender. We Chie now .

[DaiAndOh]

What's the point of charging a 2C? Does the persona have armor/guard point?

[bace]

What's the point of charging a 2C? Does the persona have armor/guard point?

It doesn't have armor during the charge but it takes away the recovery from 2C. So you can do things like charged 2C > 2C, charged 2C > 5D instantly. Essentially any mixup you can do with 2C atm with OMC you can do without meter just doing charged 2C.

Edited December 1, 2013 by bace

[bace]

So Elizabeth sweep got buffed so much, it can low profile Mitsuru 5A free now!

[DaiAndOh]

It doesn't have armor during the charge but it takes away the recovery from 2C. So you can do things like charged 2C > 2C, charged 2C > 5D instantly. Essentially any mixup you can do with 2C atm with OMC you can do without meter just doing charged 2C.

I see. So they need to be respectful for it to actually work...

[Dazardz]

Well they seem to have taken one of Liz's main combos away, although in awakening you can still use 2C > 214AB > 214D.

[Elochai]

Well they seem to have taken one of Liz's main combos away, although in awakening you can still use 2C > 214AB > 214D.

So even 2C > 214A got taken away?

Comboing into 5D for corner carry is very funny btw. Kinda glad they added that. Shouldn't have to use 25SP to side-swap with SB garu now.

[bace]

I see. So they need to be respectful for it to actually work...

If you use it as a blockstring that is probably the case, you will just have to be good catching their mash with it. As an oki option charged 2C is going to be great. You don't see 2C oki in P4U because they can just let it yellow beat until they can get out. You have to do just do one 1 or 2 2Cs only then call that out with Maragidyne in the current game. In theory charged 2C should just beat regular/late/notech and just be totally safe since it removes recovery for Elizabeth.

Well they seem to have taken one of Liz's main combos away, although in awakening you can still use 2C > 214AB > 214D.

This was probably one of the big ways they went about taking her damage away. When I asked Okusan about Elizabeth on Twitter he told me she was a low damage character now lol. If 236D can't be used much in combos anymore(you probably can) I'm waiting to see fatal combos that are just 5C > IAD jB > 5B > etc.

[Luminos564]

So I had the opportunity to see just how long does Persona Break last for Lizzie. Starts right here. From what I can tell, it lasts ~12 seconds on the timer (14 seconds of the actual video). It is a definite increase in wait time, especially since nobody starts recharging their Persona cards right away. I'm willing to wager that against characters like Mitsuru, Aigis or Yu losing Thanny is a virtual death sentence, though it wasn't too bad in this match.

This was probably one of the big ways they went about taking her damage away. When I asked Okusan about Elizabeth on Twitter he told me she was a low damage character now lol. If 236D can't be used much in combos anymore(you probably can) I'm waiting to see fatal combos that are just 5C > IAD jB > 5B > etc.

Wait what? Low damage? I don't think ASW understand the concept of a glass-cannon. They're supposed to deal high damage, with low health as a detriment. Not deal low damage and not be able to take more than 2 combos to die. I hope someone figures out how to make her damage much higher since it really hurts not seeing her hit 3K.

Although, I saw the same Lizzie in the video do 2AB>Garu>JD so maybe that's a useful set-up since it immediately brings you and the opponent down for you to do more stuff to them. Not much damage though (~1800).

Edited December 1, 2013 by Luminos564

[Elochai]

Even though there's low damage on the combo-able JD, it throws your opponent straight into the corner. I assume you could run 2[C] on them after. The damage isn't really that important when you have that insane corner carry IMO.

I'll wait for people to flush out Liz more before I write her off as "low damage" in this version.

[Luminos564]

Even though there's low damage on the combo-able JD, it throws your opponent straight into the corner. I assume you could run 2[C] on them after. The damage isn't really that important when you have that insane corner carry IMO.

Well the Lizzie player did it twice to Sho. The first time around, Thanny would have sent him to the corner but they didn't follow up with anything then (or maybe they couldn't). The second time they did it, Thanny would have thrown them away to the other side so the player opted to do JB>JA>JB>JC just as the Sho was launched. Thing is though, the Sho was already under the Fear status so wouldn't the JD have simply caused him to wallbounce anyway? They might have been able to do 5B>Stuff for more damage though I can also understand the need to keep them in the corner.

I'll wait for people to flush out Liz more before I write her off as "low damage" in this version.

Yeah same. It's only been 3~4 days now so things are still early. Lizzie not being all that popular in P4A and lacking a training mode in the arcade version is also likely slowing down experimentation.