[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[DaiAndOh]

Just chill, take in the facts, and don't assume anything, except that they'll probably patch out the randomizer glitches

[Luminos564]

Just chill

But I can't chill man, my avatar is always ON FIRE !

except that they'll probably patch out the randomizer glitches

Well that's a given. Though I'd be kinda sad went it is patched out since it is rather hilarious to watch.

But back to the matter at hand. So it turns out JD can grab a frozen opponent. That's actually pretty damn spectacular. Especially at that range. The damage on most of these is also pretty damn good. Granted it is lower than P4A (especially that last one with SB Ghastly Wail) but then again, we all knew that most of the cast (sans Yu and Aigis) took a hit in damage. They also look a bit easier to pull off though looks can be deceiving.

[DaiAndOh]

It's ok, I play Suija in SSVSpec. I'll cool you off.

[TheArm05]

So Elizabeth sweep got buffed so much, it can low profile Mitsuru 5A free now!

HOLY SHIT. That means it can low profile Coup Droit then too right? If so that is fucking huge for the Mitsuru matchup. My biggest problem with Mits is that there was basically no practical move we had to call out 5A mash or Ex Coup.

Sad about the low damage part. A combination of low health, no reversal, no counter assault , slow unsafe moves AND low damage seems a bit much. Going off the Liz changes and the fact that a lot of the ridiculous rushdown and oki is nerfed I would have to imagine she is comparatively better though.

[Elochai]

Apparently Elizabeth's 5B can be low profiled in this version (which might not be new, but I don't recall this in the last version).

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[LegendaryRath]

Apparently Elizabeth's 5B can be low profiled in this version (which might not be new, but I don't recall this in the last version).

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It's nothing new. Being able to sweep under j.B and 5B is (just) one of the reasons why Mitsuru vs Liz is so bad.

[Elochai]

You're absolutely right. I totally forgot about Mitsuru (funny because I play LK so much at TSB). Okusan made it seem like it's possible for a lot of characters to low profile 5B/j.B now though. However, this could just be mistranslation, so who knows?

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[bace]

Okusan made it seem like it's possible for a lot of characters to low profile 5B/j.B now though. However, this could just be mistranslation, so who knows?

It's a uinversal buff in P4U2 that sweeps low profile(except Kanji)

[Luminos564]

Has there been anyone able to pull off (D)Ghastly Wail at all in a combo yet? I keep looking at the minimum damage at both © and (SB) versions and can't help but think that if you could use the (D) version, her damage might go up a bit more considering its minimum damage output is 2000 which is pretty huge in P4U2 for a 50SP skill. If someone could find a way to use it consistently with its long start-up, it might make Lizzie a more frightening damage dealer. Especially, since you cannot really rely on the 1-Handed Sword Master (2C) buff because it is used up by more moves now and not just Ghastly Wail.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Luminos564

[Elochai]

I'm under the impression that 2C OMB isn't possible anymore based on the fact that Elizabeth's burst icon gets x-ed whenever she does 2C.

Waiting for someone to tell me that this is common knowledge, and I'm just super slow on the uptake.

Has there been anyone able to pull off (D)Ghastly Wail at all in a combo yet? I keep looking at the minimum damage at both © and (SB) versions and can't help but think that if you could use the (D) version, her damage might go up a bit more considering its minimum damage output is 2000 which is pretty huge in P4U2 for a 50SP skill. If someone could find a way to use it consistently with its long start-up, it might make Lizzie a more frightening damage dealer. Especially, since you cannot really rely on the 1-Handed Sword Master (2C) buff because it is used up by more moves now and not just Ghastly Wail.

In the last version, physical persona attacks used the 2C buff. What other moves use it now, besides these?

[Luminos564]

I'm under the impression that 2C OMB isn't possible anymore based on the fact that Elizabeth's burst icon gets x-ed whenever she does 2C.

Waiting for someone to tell me that this is common knowledge, and I'm just super slow on the uptake.

I always thought you could only OMB a move if both the character and their Persona are nearby during the attack. It's why Lizzie can for instance OMB her Magarudynes but can't do the same for something like Mabufudyne or Maragidyne.

In the last version, physical persona attacks used the 2C buff. What other moves use it now, besides these?

Are you sure? I recall never losing the 2C buff even after hitting my opponent with a random-ass 5C and then finishing them off with raw, 2C buffed Ghastly Wail. But if you'd like a list:

-All version of Ghastly Wail consume it.

-All versions of Mabufudyne consume it.

-5C and maybe JC consume it.

[Elochai]

Are you sure? I recall never losing the 2C buff even after hitting my opponent with a random-ass 5C and then finishing them off with raw, 2C buffed Ghastly Wail. But if you'd like a list:

-All version of Ghastly Wail consume it.

-All versions of Mabufudyne consume it.

-5C and maybe JC consume it.

I guess the only new move that consumes it now is bufu then. 5C went from 800 base dmg to like 1,200 or something. 2C jumped up in dmg too. I don't recall if j.C did, but I'm confident that it might've. Since you don't need spin state to combo into cmd grabs anymore (ala Liz's new j.D combos), perhaps you can somehow do a grounded string into 214214C? I mean, I know the old route is still possible, but you just lose the dmg buff.

I always thought you could only OMB a move if both the character and their Persona are nearby during the attack. It's why Lizzie can for instance OMB her Magarudynes but can't do the same for something like Mabufudyne or Maragidyne.

This isn't exactly correct. You could, for example, OMB fullscreen 5C with Liz, or fullscreen 2C for that matter. However, it's nonsensical to do it since you would lose positioning w/ Thanatos, and the OMB "comes" from Elizabeth anyway. Some moves just can't be OMB'd since the persona is "in use" per se; another example of this is Aigis' [o]236C/D.

[Luminos564]

I guess the only new move that consumes it now is bufu then. 5C went from 800 base dmg to like 1,200 or something. 2C jumped up in dmg too. I don't recall if j.C did, but I'm confident that it might've. Since you don't need spin state to combo into cmd grabs anymore (ala Liz's new j.D combos), perhaps you can somehow do a grounded string into 214214C? I mean, I know the old route is still possible, but you just lose the dmg buff.

The bolded part is likely why Okusan feels Lizzie does low damage. Bufu consuming the 2C buff during the strings greatly reduces her overall damage. She can still deal respectable damage via SB Ghastly Wail (since that one can be charged) but you're blowing more SP for that (needing a minimum of 125 with the OMC and 75 for SB Ghastly Wail).

But maybe I am utterly wrong. Game will be getting a training mode in a few days, so perhaps someone will come up with a way to make her viable. Though, with all those recent videos, it seems like she has an even harder time now even with her better tools. This does not bode well.

This isn't exactly correct. You could, for example, OMB fullscreen 5C with Liz, or fullscreen 2C for that matter. However, it's nonsensical to do it since you would lose positioning w/ Thanatos, and the OMB "comes" from Elizabeth anyway. Some moves just can't be OMB'd since the persona is "in use" per se; another example of this is Aigis' [o]236C/D.

Oh OK. Thanks for clarifying.

[OmnixTSC]

...so perhaps someone will come up with a way to make her viable. Though, with all those recent videos, it seems like she has an even harder time now even with her better tools. This does not bode well.

I haven't seen anything that would suggest she's not viable in this version. The biggest issue that we have at the moment is that almost all of the Liz players we've seen footage of can't play her at a high-mid or high level yet, where as there are players for literally every other character that are already playing at a high level. We'll just have to wait until Damosu improves and has more footage or another Liz shows up that can make good use of all of her changes.

[Luminos564]

I haven't seen anything that would suggest she's not viable in this version. The biggest issue that we have at the moment is that almost all of the Liz players we've seen footage of can't play her at a high-mid or high level yet, where as there are players for literally every other character that are already playing at a high level. We'll just have to wait until Damosu improves and has more footage or another Liz shows up that can make good use of all of her changes.

Yeah you're right, my bad. I shouldn't have made it sound like she isn't viable. And you're right, we really don't have a lot of people playing her at a higher level. I just kinda wish those kinds of players would show up a bit sooner, y'know? It's getting a bit too much when all I ever seem to see is Yu, Aigis, Yosuke and...Teddie.

[OmnixTSC]

Yeah you're right, my bad. I shouldn't have made it sound like she isn't viable. And you're right, we really don't have a lot of people playing her at a higher level. I just kinda wish those kinds of players would show up a bit sooner, y'know? It's getting a bit too much when all I ever seem to see is Yu, Aigis, Yosuke and...Teddie.

Liz is a really hard character to play properly. I don't know why it's so hard for players to use her, but that's just the way things are at the moment.

As Bace pointed out on twitter, "its great to see what happens when every hit isnt doing 4k+ lol." I hate to say it, but a lot of our Liz players got by on her damage off of a random hit or two and nothing else. Now that Liz's burst damage has been normalized, they'll have to adjust to playing her now relevant neutral game. If you couldn't play neutral and control the pace of a match in P4U, it's going to be hard to do so in P4U2 even with the new tools she has.

[Elochai]

Now that Liz's burst damage has been normalized, they'll have to adjust to playing her now relevant neutral game. If you couldn't play neutral and control the pace of a match in P4U, it's going to be hard to do so in P4U2 even with the new tools she has.

I guess myself, as well as most American Elizabeth players, might have to drop her then.

[Luminos564]

I guess myself, as well as most American Elizabeth players, might have to drop her then.

Over my dead body. I played Lizzie as the gimmicky character she always was in P4A and I don't plan on abandoning her now, crap damage or not. I'll just make sure to become an expert at landing SB Ghastly Wails and dodge the hell out of everything instead. The only way you're going to get me to abandon Lizzie at this point, is if ASW announces Makoto(P3MC) as the newest addition to the cast and even then, she'd only be delegated to sub-status.

But for now, I think I'll wait until I see just how bad/hard it is for her to be competitive. Game is still young and who knows, a future update may make her even better.

[TheArm05]

I picked Liz BECAUSE of the huge combos. I loved how her combos looked and I liked this character a ton from P3 so the choice was easy for me.

If they take away the huge combos but make her a legit character that is fine with me. I always did pretty well with Liz already. If we lost the huge awesome combos AND shes still shit at touching people then I will be really sad. I don't think I will switch characters since I like Liz so much and I have so much fun playing her, but I am definitely picking up a sub in case she is shit again and because I need a sub anyway.

[Dazardz]

I chose Liz because of Maragidyne. I'll never drop her, my waifu. I don't care if I'm playing the worst character in the game, she is mine.

I will admit that I really only got huge damage because people mashed buttons and fell prey to 5C. Now she might not be able to do that... and these combos so far do look even harder than before. Then again I'll never know.

I just HAVE to say though, some of her sprite animations and same for Thanatos, kinda looks... eh. Kind of weird, unusual or incomplete, unless it's just the combo. For example, 5C > 214AB just looks... oh.

[Elochai]

My post was more so in good fun rather than anything else (which is why I threw in there), but I'm glad that you guys would stick with the character no matter what. Joking aside, my point is that Elizabeth's neutral game is really difficult/hard to play IMO. She has weird normals, and the majority of them aren't inherently bad, but it's just that everyone else's are better. Plus she gets totally bopped by some characters if she doesn't play within x range (mitsuru/narukami come to mind here), so, to me, it's understandable that people are having problems. For the amount of time that I put into this game, and how "good" I am at it, I don't think I can really play neutral as it is now lol (IAD back j.B is not playing neutral).

I chose Liz because of Maragidyne. I'll never drop her, my waifu. I don't care if I'm playing the worst character in the game, she is mine.

Word on the street is that you waifu is Brkrdave. Yo what happened ?

[OmnixTSC]

I guess myself, as well as most American Elizabeth players, might have to drop her then.

I caught the joke

Anyways, like you pointed out, j.B all day isn't neutral. That's something I had to learn about 2 months ago. I feel like more of you should try talking to Bace...well, the ones that don't already do so. I literally talk to Bace for hours about stuff that has nothing to do with Persona, but he helps me when we get on the subject.

Back to Liz's neutral game. 5C dash cancel will probably take another month before it starts showing it's applications (based on player performance). Same with 2[C]. Her new auto-combo looks great and should actually add to her stagger pressure a bit.

The biggest problem I see with current P4U2 Liz players outside of playing neutral is that they really can't confirm properly. It's something I've been saying for a good while. They can't pick up off of most counterhits or crouch confirms (which is like second nature to me at this point). The players are going to have to get over these two hurdles if they want to prevent that dent in their wallets from growing

[Dazardz]

Word on the street is that you waifu is Brkrdave. Yo what happened ?

Brkrdave is my husbando. While he's the best of them all, I still need some Elizabeth in my life. Please don't bring Brkrdave up again, the only thing I would end up talking about is him:lol:, and that's off topic. I mean seriously I want to write a whole paragraph about brkrdave right now. He's so sexyI really have to stay on topic, sorry. Liz is nothing to him.

To make this post stay on topic, j.B all day, not neutral? Have I been living a lie?

I do know, thanks to having 5AA and 5BB, I can have a little more time to think about what I'm gonna do to hit the opponent. (Seriously this girl needs another overhead.)

[OmnixTSC]

To make this post stay on topic, j.B all day, not neutral? Have I been living a lie?

I do know, thanks to having 5AA and 5BB, I can have a little more time to think about what I'm gonna do to hit the opponent. (Seriously this girl needs another overhead.)

Apparently, you have been living a lie. I'm sorry to wake you up from your dream

With the rate at which Liz builds SP, I don't think she needs another overhead. 2B > OMC 50/50 is already something that the rest of the cast doesn't have (Narukami has something similar in some situations). With her pressure being improved, this'll probably be even more of a threat.

[Elochai]

Don't get me wrong. IAD j.B is still a valid and very powerful tool in neutral. However, if your whole neutral game is based around throwing j.Bs, then you're practically banking on random hits more than anything else. While I don't think I've seen anyone take it to this extreme, I still think it's worth pointing out that there're a lot of other good tools that Liz has in neutral. You know, like 2AB and 5C (this one is iffy though) lol.

I'd more so call 2B OMC a 3 way mix-up, since it's high/low/throw, unless I'm the only one who puts throw in there. I dunno, but I think throw is a useful mix-up tool especially when the other person expects you to hit them with a high/low, so they're busy trying to block instead of tech the grab. I'm arguing semantics, but yeah. I agree on the new 5AA/5BB being useful. I once saw something like 5A > 5A > 5AA > 5B > 5BB. Makes me wonder how much stronger stagger/catching jump-outs will become.

I guess all we can do is wait like Omnix said

(or convince Okusan to play Liz again/get someone to record Damosu)

.