Jump to content
bace

[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

Recommended Posts

New Liz doesn't let you do whatever you want if you actually want damage. You have to do the proper routes, which more often than not will involve links and weird directional sequences to land hits properly. It's a really rough road, but if you're dedicated...

 

I'm learning Yukari, so Liz combos being hard doesn't bother me. I just have to work extremely hard with two characters now! Yaaaaay

 

Oh, and before I forget. I'm working on some pre-awakening > awakening > knockdown stuff. We've found a few routes that end with 4k+ damage, puts the opponent in the corner with the hard knockdown, and ends with poison and paralysis. This can be done off of 5A, so it's pretty good albeit a bit tough as far as timing goes. I'll record them later today or tomorrow after some more testing for consistency.

 

Edit: I have not figured out how to make this consistent yet...It's pretty consistent off of fatal counters, but everything else is a toss-up. I'll get back to you guys if/when I figure it out ;-;

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I decided not to give up on Liz. She will take time getting used to.

 

Question, how do you do a quick hit with Thanatos and then dash forward with Liz? Like...I saw in one of Damosu's videos that Thanatos did his two hit attack but only slashed once, then he dashed forward for mixup.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So what do you guys think we can do for pressure? Use 5A<5AA<5B<5C(1)<66<repeat until they give up?

 

Obviously I'm the oblivious one who decided to wait for the english release. XD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So what do you guys think we can do for pressure? Use 5A<5AA<5B<5C(1)<66<repeat until they give up?

 

Obviously I'm the oblivious one who decided to wait for the english release. XD

 

I don't think pressure is much different outside of 2[C]/jC honestly. You can use jC with staggers to bait people into pressing grab, and then CH them. 2[C] is just really really good since it's a free OMC pretty much. 5C dash cancel is okay imo, but I've really only used it when the opponent began to respect me. If people don't wanna press buttons against you, feel free to 5C(1)66 x N them into the corner :v:.

 

Has j.B been of any use to anybody yet? I'm still wondering if that move can be of any great use...

 

jB still seems okay I guess? It doesn't seem that much worse, at least not yet.

 

Also, if anyone didn't know, the catch part of Randomizer is blockable. You can even trigger the move then OMC your attack and block. It's kinda funny lol. I've also had people do crossups on me which don't activate Randomizer for some reason. Liz still blocks the attack though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone have any tips on landing 5AA > OMB > Awakening (if needed) > 214AB > Hama route while midscreen? 

 

5AA starter is the only starter giving me problems because it seems like I can't 66 > 5B fast enough.

 

Also, does anyone know if the freeze time of 214AB changes depending on the height at which the ice hits?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you tried OMB>66 214AB? It also helps to super cancel the 2nd hit of 214AB rather than just doing the super afterwards. 

 

I guess you could say 214AB is kinda height dependent. The only real way you'd get a short freeze is if your opponent was too high in the air to be hit by the 2nd hit of the move. Nothing else affects the amount of freeze time afaik. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think pressure is much different outside of 2[C]/jC honestly. You can use jC with staggers to bait people into pressing grab, and then CH them. 2[C] is just really really good since it's a free OMC pretty much. 5C dash cancel is okay imo, but I've really only used it when the opponent began to respect me. If people don't wanna press buttons against you, feel free to 5C(1)66 x N them into the corner :v:.

 

 

jB still seems okay I guess? It doesn't seem that much worse, at least not yet.

 

Also, if anyone didn't know, the catch part of Randomizer is blockable. You can even trigger the move then OMC your attack and block. It's kinda funny lol. I've also had people do crossups on me which don't activate Randomizer for some reason. Liz still blocks the attack though. 

 

Sorry, I meant j.2B.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't. ._.

Well hey I didn't know we could actually j.2B so don't worry ^_^;;. Not sure how neat it is though since j.B probably does better (assuming J.2B is the same as 2B).

 

I mean I guess it's okay overall since we can use it against a Yosuke that's a up on top of us.

 

What's the recovery of Randomizer btw? I would assume it's pretty long (like Ken's Furious Attack long) on recovery. Which probably means we might wanna be careful when against high players that have 50SP to spare

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well hey I didn't know we could actually j.2B so don't worry ^_^;;. Not sure how neat it is though since j.B probably does better (assuming J.2B is the same as 2B).

 

I mean I guess it's okay overall since we can use it against a Yosuke that's a up on top of us.

 

What's the recovery of Randomizer btw? I would assume it's pretty long (like Ken's Furious Attack long) on recovery. Which probably means we might wanna be careful when against high players that have 50SP to spare

 

 

it's actually not that easy to punish, it has some recovery, but it's more like Yukiko's furious action's recovery than Ken's, both in duration and in the way it works. you'll need a good air punish route if you want to make a Liz player pay for her Randomizer. It's just that much better (except for the input) compared to Shuffle Time !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Am I doing something wrong. I can't seem to make the 2A into 5B work in this combo:

 

5A > 5AA > 2AB > 236CD [2] > 2A > 2B > jc jB > jA > jC > 2A > 5B > 5C (2) > 2C > 214AB > 214D > 2AB 

 

I can do it fine off a sweep. Dummy keeps teching after the 2A. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The other thing that could be happening is that you aren't waiting long enough after the recoil/vacuum on 5B for the 5B > 2B part of the combo. If you don't delay the 2B enough, the j.C will either place you too high/too far for a 2A or the follow-ups to combo or falling j.A will whiff after the j.B.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has anyone really messed around with 2[C] oki in awakening? For all intents and purposes, I would say it's almost as strong as 236B oki. I was mainly interested in using 2[C] since 236B loses to roll (not that anyone has rolled it anyway, but I guess they just don't know you can?) and I wanted a setup that would beat roll for me. If the opponent mashes out of as fast as possible & rolls, their roll will get CHed by DP. Everything else from 236B applies (you get a safejump* high/low mixup) but you can't crossup; at least I haven't been able to time this in a way where Liz has enough time to IAD backdash into the corner. Even if they don't shake out of the ice fast enough and 2C hits, you still get 1HSM & they're still in the corner.

 

The only way I can see to catch rolls w/ 236B oki is to pretend that you're using 214C oki from the last game. IE you have to wait and see if they roll before committing to a mixup/pressure. Maybe there's a way of doing this that I'm not seeing or something. 

 

 

* = Against Narukami, unsure about anyone else. 

 

Edit: I thought that 214AB's freeze time was longer in awakening, but it seems that I was wrong. You can use 2[C] oki even after 214AB in regular mode. All the same stuff applies. Maybe it's the go-to oki? 

Edited by Elochai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright so I was messing around in P4A Score Attack (finally beating it for the first damn time, good grief) with Lizzie and during the Kanji match, somehow I went from 5C>2C into (B)Diarahan (I know because I was attempting 214B but somehow did a double 214214 motion). It actually saved my ass from the brink of defeat there.

 

So I got to wondering: why aren't players using Diarahan? You'd think that after shaving off such a massive portion of health you'd want to be able to stay in Awakening long enough to make it count. But I virtually never see anybody attempt it. Even (SB)Diarahan which has projectile-invulnerability never sees play. So why is that? Far too costly a meter which we need damage for or is there simply no safe method to use it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah that's an interesting question. I remember seeing a Damosu vid of him versus Teddie, and I think he could have used SB Diarahan to win the match to beat the timer but he didn't and he ended up losing. I know that 5C > 2C > 214AB > Diarahan is safe (I think) but I'm not sure why people never use it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

liz really needs her meter now just to do damage and get bufu oki. plus diarahan is more trouble than it is worth. after using it, sure she may survive another hit or small combo, but she still suffers from lack of mixup. which means the foe still has to screw up for her to win, a feat that is less likely the higher the player level, and if she does not sustain her momentum via oki.

 

she NEEDS oki. against most characters on the upper end of the spectrum, if she has to play neutral against them more than once or twice, there is more of a chance of the other character winning.

 

ultimately there are just better ways to apply her meter. with a choice between life gaining and death combos...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few notes on Score Attack boss Liz :

-Has a lot of health : somewhere around 18-20k.

-has 3 jumps/2 airdashes

-runs super fast and her airdashes cover a huge distance

-broken damage, like every boss/score attack  character : 5D deals 4k, you've been warned

-Immune to any kind of status ailment.

- Like previous version, invigorate on crack, she will almost always have at least 50 meter to play with

-Mahamaon/Mamudoon completely invincible from startup to recovery, activates really fast like in the previous version. You can still throw/try to hit her in the small window between the end of invincibility and the activation of the instant kill

-Affected by Ghastly wail Nerf : C version *only* deals around 5k without any buffs. EX wail still deals the 8.1k. Deceptively good range. Unlike normal Liz, if you're not in the air/out of range  when the superflash occurs, then you'll be grabbed no matter what you try (give this to normal Liz plz). Also, surprisingly enough, you can be caught by Wail while being in hitstun, meaning you can be comboed into Wail from anything.

-Diaharan fully heals Liz, and a lot faster than before. Invulnerable to projectiles. Really hard to stop. Almost impossible to kill without the right strategy when this happens (Liz's IK combo doesn't even IK her when it happens, she just lose something like 5/6 of her health to give you an idea of what awaits you. now try to kill her with a low damage output char xD)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a recurring claim I see tossed around that Score Attack Lizzie should actually be her normal version. While I don't think the whole package is necessary, I thought that a scaled down version would be plenty. A damage adjustment, health decrease (let's say 11,000 just to make things really outta whack for Kanji and Akihiko) and ailment immunity removal would likely be enough. Of course, that's just empty wishing and will never happen.

 

liz really needs her meter now just to do damage and get bufu oki. plus diarahan is more trouble than it is worth. after using it, sure she may survive another hit or small combo, but she still suffers from lack of mixup. which means the foe still has to screw up for her to win, a feat that is less likely the higher the player level, and if she does not sustain her momentum via oki.

 

she NEEDS oki. against most characters on the upper end of the spectrum, if she has to play neutral against them more than once or twice, there is more of a chance of the other character winning.

 

ultimately there are just better ways to apply her meter. with a choice between life gaining and death combos...

 

Well shit, guess I got my answer (even if it is one that bears bad news). Chalk another move better left out of the movepool it seems.

 

Wait, since when was Mabufudyne (214A/B) used for oki? I thought Maziodyne (236B) and Maraidyne (214D) were used for that, even if both moves are pretty weak for it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To end certain mid screen and corner combos to retain momentum. It isn't an actual oki tool but a setup for oki. To set those two moves up you would usually need to use the bufu so that it becomes significantly harder for them to escape. Among other setups.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×