Jump to content
bace

[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

Recommended Posts

I don't want Liz to become like Boss Liz, I just want Wail to have a use again : it's mediocre as a reversal, useless on neutral, and hardly practical for combos. Such a classy super deserves better xD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed Zephy, applying at least the buffs or the fear status is already a bit of a hassle to perform. So does ASW have to finish it off by giving us a grab that's noticeable and easy to dodge too!? @_@

 

I was wondering also

 

for combos like:

5A > 5AA > 2AB > 236CD [2] > 2A > 2B > jc jB > jA > jC > 2A > 5B > 5C (2) > 2C > 214AB > 214D > 2AB

 

what would the tiny jc exactly mean? Does it mean it needs to be whiffed to continue the combo as it is?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed Zephy, applying at least the buffs or the fear status is already a bit of a hassle to perform. So does ASW have to finish it off by giving us a grab that's noticeable and easy to dodge too!? @_@

 

I was wondering also

 

for combos like:

5A > 5AA > 2AB > 236CD [2] > 2A > 2B > jc jB > jA > jC > 2A > 5B > 5C (2) > 2C > 214AB > 214D > 2AB

 

what would the tiny jc exactly mean? Does it mean it needs to be whiffed to continue the combo as it is?

 

 

Jump Cancel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't want Liz to become like Boss Liz, I just want Wail to have a use again : it's mediocre as a reversal, useless on neutral, and hardly practical for combos. Such a classy super deserves better xD

 

As do I. It frakking sucks that one of the best looking SP skills is hardly worth ever using. The go-to supers for Lizzie seem to be Mind Charge (most of the time) and Mahamaon (the few times when you CAN kill the opponent in a combo). I wouldn't mind it so much if the other instant death skill, Mumudoon wasn't a complete and utter waste of a slot. 

 

Indeed Zephy, applying at least the buffs or the fear status is already a bit of a hassle to perform. So does ASW have to finish it off by giving us a grab that's noticeable and easy to dodge too!? @_@

 

Please don't give ASW ideas. I am holding out for a tiny microbe of hope that when they patch the console characters into the arcade version, they might also do a balance re-adjustment and make her finally good (not top-tie, just good).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please don't give ASW ideas. I am holding out for a tiny microbe of hope that when they patch the console characters into the arcade version, they might also do a balance re-adjustment and make her finally good (not top-tie, just good).

 

Well hey Elochai's been doing well with Lizzie on tournaments (you can already see my newfound Sensei-like respect for him).

The matches he posted on the video and critique threads are some pretty sick stuff. They seem perform-able for ME of all people who can hardly do crap with character's like Carl or Arakune from Blazblue. Whom are supposedly just a little tough to learn. (Not saying the stuff he did wasn't amazing though. '3')

 

Edit: Ack... Tapatalk is weird when you try quoting... Let meh fix that up

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I figured I'd point this out here since I was reviewing Elochai's match at GUTS..

 

5C is used way more than it should be by Liz players, especially at neutral. The biggest problem with 5C at neutral is that it loses to so much which kills the risk/reward on it, as you're using something with sizable recovery that has generally poor yield on hit or on block against an opponent that more often than not will flat out avoid the 5C or block it and take a persona card from you. 

 

Realistically, all an opponent has to do is look at our meter to tell whether or not they need to worry about a OMC on our end in order to make Thanatos pressure "safe" anywhere that isn't  the corner. They need to just look for the potential OMC and at Liz herself for the possibility of a 5D. That really says something about the effectiveness of Thanatos pressure fullscreen or even midscreen. Unless you're conditioning them in order to look for some other opportunity, you're really just wasting meter and persona cards with Thanatos pressure. If you have meter to spare (say 90~ SP pre-awakening and 125~ post-awakening), I'd say it's okay to attempt from time to time. We need our meter for so much now that I really don't recommend going for it often.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you can mitigate the risks of using 5C if you backdash cancel it. IIRC if you BDC the first hit, then Thanatos disappears and he's unable to be hit. You kinda give up further pressure if you do this though since the next persona move you throw out will have Thanatos appear in front of you.

Regardless, the use of neutral 5C is a bad habit. Especially since being persona broken is more dangerous now. I do however think that Thanatos pressure is good after you've conditioned your opponent. We always have to spend meter to convert off of the hits, but 3/4 options give us 4K~ for like 25 meter anyways.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you can mitigate the risks of using 5C if you backdash cancel it. IIRC if you BDC the first hit, then Thanatos disappears and he's unable to be hit. You kinda give up further pressure if you do this though since the next persona move you throw out will have Thanatos appear in front of you.

 

That's an option for when the 5C is blocked, but it's whiffed so often by Liz players (myself included) that I feel they need to work on just using it after seeing specific things instead of just throwing it out there. I'm going to just flat out avoid using it for most situations unless I can react to something I know it'll work against at neutral.

 

Regardless, the use of neutral 5C is a bad habit. Especially since being persona broken is more dangerous now. I do however think that Thanatos pressure is good after you've conditioned your opponent. We always have to spend meter to convert off of the hits, but 3/4 options give us 4K~ for like 25 meter anyways.

 

It's the combination of 5C leading to earlier persona breaks and frequently getting us sent to the corner or at the very least knocked down b/c of poor usage. It's perfectly fine to use Thanatos to condition people, it's just that most players aren't using him with the intent to do that. They're just hoping something hits. This leads to impatience and everyone falls into the habit of doing this at least a few times even at higher levels of play, but that doesn't make it any less of a poor decision.

 

As far as conversions go, I don't think it's hard to confirm off of Thanatos pressure...people just need to get better at preparing for the situations they force their opponents into. The damage is decent, but you're not really going to get that against someone in a set once they pick up on Thanatos or Liz pressure in general. It's even harder to make use of something like that against someone that knows how to deal with Liz as the mixup isn't great and the reward isn't either, which gives them no reason to take a risk. The only time they'll push hard to get out of something is when we blow all our meter on pressure that isn't working or when they just momentarily forget that Thanatos is still right in front of their face.

 

When we spend meter on Thanatos pressure anywhere on the screen, the objective should be for us to force a specific situation and to punish the opponent's response to said situation. I don't feel like enough of us are doing that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What would be a good example of the last thing you just said Omnix?,?

 

Sorry for the late reply, I'm mentally exhausted because of...various things that have come to my attention recently. Hmm, an example of that would be just forcing someone to block Thanatos at fullscreen with 5C. At this point, you want to choose what option you're going to condition your opponent to attempt avoiding. 5D or 2C are the most obvious alternating options that you can make use of, as 5D punishes preemptively downbacking 2C, and 2C beats late jumps on a 5D that isn't there. With meter, however, we can add more layers to that pressure. Say for instance you start off with 5C in a similar fashion. If your intent is to OMC in order to catch something, you can do so in various ways. I'll list the ones I can think of off the top of my head:

 

1) 5C > OMC >(Delay) 5C - The most standard use for OMC. Catches people trying to punish the persona call for a nice CH confirm.

 

2) 5C > OMC > 5D - Catches people over-respecting 5C x N, 5C > 2C, and 5C > OMC > 5C. Much weaker against opponent's that actively watch Liz's animations.

 

3) 5C > OMC > 2C - I...actually don't know when we'd do this one. In this scenario, 2C would fulfill the same function as 5C: catches attempts to punish Thanatos. Hmm, I guess it would catch rolls at some spacings/timings

 

Instead of just throwing one of these out (which I did at least twice earlier today), we should be doing the above in order to punish our opponent's habits. We get a lot more out of it by doing so and the use of meter is more of a calculated risk than one that will generally yield nothing.

 

I'm probably going to stay away from Dustloop for a bit in order to...recover my mental state, haha. If any of you need anything, just tweet at me or something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whoa... 0_0 Um... I hope you have a safe recovery. *Pat pat hugs*

 

Speaking of these alternate routes does J. C work as an OMC route either?

 

And since the properties of the moves are different now, I really don't know what kind of combos players can use if an enemy's caught by the pressure. Anyone got an example?,? 

Well I guess I could check the combo thread real quick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whoa... 0_0 Um... I hope you have a safe recovery. *Pat pat hugs*

 

Hmm, I actually...got over that really quickly.  :v:

 

Well, let's get on to the stuff you're here for.

 

Speaking of these alternate routes does J. C work as an OMC route either?

 

It's not worth it. It doesn't offer anything that the 5C/2C variants don't already and you lose options if it's blocked.

 

 

And since the properties of the moves are different now, I really don't know what kind of combos players can use if an enemy's caught by the pressure. Anyone got an example?,? 

Well I guess I could check the combo thread real quick

 

You confirm into really basic stuff on hit:

 

Midscreen/Fullscreen (based on ranges):

 

5C > OMC > (Delay) 5C (Hits) > 2C > 214B or 214AB when you won't reach the corner; works on air hit/CH

5C > OMC > (Delay) 5C (Hits) > 5D > Stuff when you won't reach the corner and 2C will whiff; only works on CH

5C > OMC > 2C (Hits) > 214B or 214AB works everywhere except really jank spacings

5C > OMC > 2C (Hits Late) > 5C > 2C > 214AB for when you catch a roll and the screen will not move any farther

 

There's a bunch more, but this is some basic stuff. Just keep in mind that you don't need to OMC if you're sure your opponent will get hit without it. You also don't want to do this frequently, as you get better pressure options from letting someone punish Thanatos at fullscreen and using 214D while the opponent is recovering. Just being patient and waiting for them to do something without caring about the card loss is an option, too (saves you meter and you go back to the neutral game).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Started playing today and good grief, this ISN'T the Lizzie I fell in love with. From a single Score Attack run and some Challenges, all I can say is that nothing feels like it normally would. Everything looks and feels sluggish and downright weak. And I get that there may be some bias on my part there but I was willing to keep an open mind here. Turns out it is a failed optimism on my part. About the only part I like is how easy it is to catch the AI sometimes with Debilitate/Randomizer which is oh-so satisfying to pull off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In regards to pre-awakening garudyne, it seems as if you can't really do the 2x garu shorthandedly. The only characters who bounce high enough for something like 5AA>2AB>236CD[2]>2AB>whatever are Adachi, Yukari, and Sho/Minazuki. If you do 236CD[3], you can get it to work on Marie too. I haven't really tested xx>236CD[2]>2B>jc jB, but it seems to generally follow the same rule. If you wanna go for (nearly) maximum damage, it's looking like you gotta actually learn how to do xx>236CD[8~2] on the entire cast (for what it's worth, raw 236CD[2] bounces the opponent super high so you can just go for 2AB afterwards in that scenario).

 

Also, I dunno if anyone noticed this, but air turn jC seems to drag the opponent out of the corner. You can do whatever>sb bufu>dash air turn jC>falling jA/2A. 

 

Everything looks and feels sluggish and downright weak.

 

When I first got my hands on the game, the recovery on zio threw me off so hard for like 2 weeks straight.

 

Edit: here's a video of that jC thing

Edited by Elochai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thing about Liz iz now is that idk how to play her neutral. I usually just sweeped -> poison and kept trying to catch the enemy but I got DP'ed and rolled a lot. And if I try to bait and they don't actually initiate any of those they attack me and I'm stuck on defense so can't really rushdown. I can't use D like I used to because the reach is so awful. The combos are a lot tighter too except in the corner but corner combos are kind of weakish if you aren't in awakening.

I love 2C Charge -> 5D though lots of people get caught from that. Liz just feels a lot more gimmicky to me. She's definitely much harder to use.

Only day 1 tho so we'll see

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thing about Liz iz now is that idk how to play her neutral. I usually just sweeped -> poison and kept trying to catch the enemy but I got DP'ed and rolled a lot. And if I try to bait and they don't actually initiate any of those they attack me and I'm stuck on defense so can't really rushdown. I can't use D like I used to because the reach is so awful. The combos are a lot tighter too except in the corner but corner combos are kind of weakish if you aren't in awakening.

I love 2C Charge -> 5D though lots of people get caught from that. Liz just feels a lot more gimmicky to me. She's definitely much harder to use.

Only day 1 tho so we'll see

I kinda feel like Liz's neutral isn't that much different. You're still throwing out jB/5C/Zio etc. I think baiting people with 2D isn't a bad idea, but like anything else, if you punish them enough times, they learn to respect your pressure. After you've gotten them to stop hitting buttons, you should press the advantage imo.

I would also agree that 2[C] in the corner is pretty good.

Does awakening sweep > garu [6] > 5C work on everyone?

Sweep>awakening sb garu>5C is universal afaik.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ I guess that's true. Liz just seems a lot slower and weaker so I should get used to that. I just don't like her changes that much.

More Day 1 Stuff:

- Hama combos are harder to do than I thought. Frequently 2C knocks the enemy backwards, or 2C launches the enemy too high so they can tech. I did do one though so I'm proud of that 8)

- Is it possible to punish the enemy if they break a charged 2C or is the recovery too long?

I should test that

- 5AAA -> 214A is so good. They either don't tech out of the ice and you get free poison or they try to get out and you land a CH.

- Having trouble connecting Bufu to j.D, gonna have to practice that...

- 5BB doesn't seem like a valid blockstring because I'm always DP'ed when I use it. Probably imputting it too slow.

- Garu is really weird. Usually I follow it up with 5AA because 2A -> j.B -> j.A -> j.C is too hard lol. I should probably use SB Garu in pressure more because it seems a lot safer to follow up with normals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can eliminate that 2C issue if you walk backwards a little bit before doing 2C. I usually hold back while I'm doing SB Garu and then hold it for like an extra second before inputting 2C.

 

As long as you got to 2C's maximum charge or you didn't charge it all the way, I believe you can punish the opponent if they break it. I'm not entirely sure since I don't really use it unless I'm doing it for oki. Let us know what you find out in your testing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do we have a Skype chat? To contribute, I keep forgetting that 2C can be charged and just go for agi oki.

EDIT: What's the new timing on EX Ago>5B? I'm tired of whiffing it and dying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

- 5BB doesn't seem like a valid blockstring because I'm always DP'ed when I use it. Probably imputting it too slow.

 

It's just another option for staggers, though you're better off doing 5Bdc, 5B > 5C, or 5B > 5Cdc in most cases. There's not as much of a threat with 5BB.

 

- Garu is really weird. Usually I follow it up with 5AA because 2A -> j.B -> j.A -> j.C is too hard lol. I should probably use SB Garu in pressure more because it seems a lot safer to follow up with normals.

 

I think you meant 2A > 2B > dj.B > j.A > j.C? It's something you'll just have to practice. It's not that bad.

 

I'd recommend avoiding use of SB Garu in pressure. It doesn't offer anything different from our stagger pressure and costs meter. It's also easier to disrespect or flat out avoid the follow-up with backdash. Also, you give your opponent free meter as they can just IB the entire garu until the end without worrying about anything. The threat from using SB Garu isn't there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's just another option for staggers, though you're better off doing 5Bdc, 5B > 5C, or 5B > 5Cdc in most cases. There's not as much of a threat with 5BB.

I think you meant 2A > 2B > dj.B > j.A > j.C? It's something you'll just have to practice. It's not that bad.

I'd recommend avoiding use of SB Garu in pressure. It doesn't offer anything different from our stagger pressure and costs meter. It's also easier to disrespect or flat out avoid the follow-up with backdash. Also, you give your opponent free meter as they can just IB the entire garu until the end without worrying about anything. The threat from using SB Garu isn't there.

Didn't know about the SB Garu stuff, thanks.

And it's not that the combo itself is hard since I can easily do it in practice but doing it over netplay for me is just like not possible unless it's with awakening Garu :p

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FINALLY GOT THE GAME!!! Oh Teddie Bop Bag, how you make my giggle.

 

Idk she seems more agile to me. Though I can definitely see that D nerd everyone's been talking about. Since I'm kinda starting all over again with the ranked matches I haven't exactly met an opponent who's been a really challenging foe yet. But I hope I can play against you guys to maybe catch up with the pace (And to see if I'm any close to your skill levels).

 

Also is Diarahan not cancelable from Maragidyne anymore? I used to do that all the time when I played Lizzie and was low.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×