[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[OmnixTSC]

Im not questioning their skill because im sure most of them would destroy me, but in japanese vids the opponents still seem to treat liz like: "Holy crap what is going on here?"  I see so much blocked 5C to 5D. Whenever I play, my opponent knows that they generally don't have to care about mid range or longer Thanatos stuff.

 

If you haven't fought Liz, this tends to happen to you. She's a nonexistent character for a reason. The only people that have any MU experience against her are the ones that fight a Liz player regularly.

[SupaFella0]

Was that Domi burst tourny recorded anywhere? I gotta see more Damosu, it's always a new magic show.

[TheHitmarkersPro]

Was that Domi burst tourny recorded anywhere? I gotta see more Damosu, it's always a new magic show.

Xie streamed it and Ho-chan was asking him to upload it, we'll probably see it eventually.

[Elochai]

Was that Domi burst tourny recorded anywhere? I gotta see more Damosu, it's always a new magic show.

 

I can't speak for the rest of the tournament because I didn't see it, but from what I saw of top 8, Damosu hardly used Liz. He played her for 1 game, went for an OMB Hama combo, dropped it, and then he picked Adachi for his other matches. Dunno if he'll actually be switching when 2.0 comes out or something, but he doesn't seem to play a lot of Liz these days.

[TastyPancakez]

H-he can't switch

We need some Japanese overlord ;-;

(I mean I noticed this too but that's too bad if he does switch...)

[Luminos564]

H-he can't switch

We need some Japanese overlord ;-;

(I mean I noticed this too but that's too bad if he does switch...)

 

Well you can't fault the guy. I called this months ago so I am not entirely surprised by it. Let's face it, for all the love, Lizzie just isn't that good right now. And one can only go so long pouring their time and effort into a character that ultimately does not give much payoff. I too made the switch (to Minazuki because damn he is fun to play) and have seen much better results for my trouble. Far more so than I ever did with P4A Lizzie.

 

But cheer up. A new patch means more chances for improvement and new blood to flood into the ranks. Is it guaranteed? Eh, not exactly. My wager right now is 50/50 for Lizzie. On the one hand, some things were put on the right track in the loketest so maybe that is a sign of better things to come. On the other hand though, Lizzie's remained consistently "bad" (insofar as her BS not being able to keep up with other characters' BS) so I am hesitant to call 2.0 our "Promised Land".

[susano]

I ended up dropping Liz too. Im really hoping for 2.0 to bring something good.

[Elochai]

Here's a video showing off Elizabeth's final changes in 2.0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjVCdJaSHAU#t=242

 

I'm actually excited for 2.0 Liz. Her new combo routes look really interesting. Mudo is actually (somewhat) useful now too!

 

 

[TD]

These changes should be fun... Should definitely make her more viable at least. Her most useless tools got buffed and it seems like she will be emphasizing a stall/ corner based, style now, of course with the ailments and healing as support. Most hype for the most basic but effective mixup we get from Hama now, and it can be A big comeback factor with 10 seconds or less after a knockdown (hopefully). Cheers to meter being more useful.

[Luminos564]

Looking at the video I am left...a bit underwhelmed. If this was the best they could show, then I worry what the worst will be.

 

And not to rain on anyone's parade but Mamudoon is still very much crud-tacular. You know how Mahamaon now only IKs when under 10 seconds? Yeah, same deal for it except unlike Mahamaon it still has that nasty timer before activation proving once again how useless it is in the grand scheme of things. Fortunately there is a plus: both Mahamaon and Mamudoon deal damage now (1190 for Mahamaon and 2000 for Mamudoon which may or may not be affected by proration).

 

That said and my negativity aside, they really didn't cover everything. The 2C stocks for one and there was no demonstration on how well Mind Charge functions now. There's a lot of stuff to explore now so I'll try to be optimistic (hard as that might be for me).

[Elochai]

So ASW released a pdf with all of the changes in it; what's in the Famitsu article & video isn't the entirety of Elizabeth's changes.

 

You can view said pdf here (just ctrl+f エリザベス to get to Liz) .

 

I can't really give all of my thoughts atm but she seems generally buffed to me, at least at first glance. Some interesting things: 5D/jD are faster (and they might go further but I'm not sure; the pdf mentions the way Thanatos appears or something like that), 2C has more hitstop (which is probably why regular B bufu connects now prolly), all versions of bufu seem to have less recovery/further travel distance/no longer fatal recovery(?) (and A version has omc/super cancel options like in the video). Liz has more HP too. Hama/Mudo do guaranteed damage now when used in combos that won't kill, just as Luminos observed. 

 

Also, Randomizer is now [2]8 lol. They actually fixed it.

 

To get a full understanding of the changes, I suppose we're simply to wait until someone gets around to translating all of them.

[TD]

More hp? I wonder how much. If she gets 10k that would be amazing for her. Let's not jinx it though .-.

[So-Called-Chaos]

first off love the changes to Mabufudynes, B Bufu was pretty useless before unless it was used in combos early, and nice to see A Bufu cancel options, that's definitely a plus.

 

Diarahan change seems interesting, hopefully the hitbox is big enough for it to be a reversal.

 

is it me or does Liz's damage seem higher?

 

yay Debilitate command changed!

[OmnixTSC]

Translations by Dreiko

 

Full Elizabeth 2.0 Change List (Afaik)

 

(Universal)

• Elizabeth P-combo (5AAA/5BBB) can be canceled on block into sweep
• 5BBB is faster and jump cancelable
• j.2B has less startup
• 5C seems to leave an afterimage(?)
• 5D and jD have less startup
• 2D poison expires faster (still does 1.2k maximum damage)
• Shuffle Time (B+D) has less startup
• Mudoon and Hama changed (see below)
• Randomizer input changed to a [2]~8 charge motion

(Pre-Awakening)

• A Maziodyne is cancellable on hit and doesn't wallbounce
• B Maziodyne has less startup
• SB Maziodyne Paralysis has a shorter duration
• SB Maziodyne only wallbounds on the first use.
• A Mabufudyne is super and one more cancellable
• SB Mabufudyne Fatal Counters
• Easier to land a second B/SB Mabudyne in a combo on air hit (?)
• Thanatos recovery after Mabudynes is reduced

(Awakening)

• A Mabufudyne freezes you for longer
• Sb Mabufudyne easier to combo into
• Magarudyne has less startup and is a Fatal Counter
• Maragidyne is faster

(Mahamaon and Mamudoon)

• Mahamaon seems to only kill instantly if the timer is under 10 seconds (?)
• Mamudoon does 2k minimum damage and replaces Hama in functionality for combos
• Both have much less startup (Mahamaon has near instant activation and Mamudoon has old Hama activation time) and do not disappear on block

[Ninjaelephant]

for the sb maziodyne only wall bounding on first use thing, i'm pretty sure that's for awakening and it means that the second beam won't wallbound them.

[SupaFella0]

Why does Mamudoon still have that start up time if it doesn't kill?

[TD]

It says first use, not first beam: using sb zio a second time would take away the effect.

You see the same wallbound as normal in the vid.

[firedraco]

Here is the PDF of changes if anyone is interested: http://www.arcsystemworks.jp/p4u2/images/imp/list_ver.2.00.pdf

I'm redoing a bunch of work that was already done but there was some stuff left out of Dreiko's translation:

5AAA:

• Can cancel into sweep when blocked.
• Untechable time greatly increased.
• When holding backwards, SB Bufu won't come out.

5BB:

• P-combo time sped up. (I think this means it comes out faster or you can cancel into it sooner?)

5BBB:

• Startup is faster.
• Hit no longer forces the opponent to float.
• Can be comboed into 5D, 2D, or sweep.

5C:

• Gets afterimages when strengthened. (By the 1H Sword Master buff, I presume)

2C:

• Hitstop increased.

5D/j.D:

• Untechable time increased.
• 5D - Thanatos appears farther forward than before.
• j.D - Thanatos moves more quickly.

2D:

• Hitbox active time reduced. (?)
• Poison length reduced. (Apparently damage is the same though)

j.2B:

• All recoveries reduced.

AOA:

• Startup sped up.
• Recovery reduced.

Shuffle Time:

• Startup sped up.
• Recovery increased.

Maziodynes:

• Thanatos now faces the opponent when used.
• A version knockback changed (doesn't wallbounce?) and the opponent can now tech in the air.
• B version untechable time increased.
• SB version shock time decreased.
• Can now use Persona attacks after awakened B/SB versions.

B Maziodyne (Normal):

• Activation time decreased.

A Maziodyne (Awakened):

• No longer wall bounces the opponent.
• Activation time slowed slightly.

SB Maziodyne (Awakened):

• Ground version can now be One More! canceled.
• The 1st hit's wall bounce and the 2nd hit's wall stick time were reduced.

Mabufudyne:

• Recoveries reduced.
• Thanatos now faces the opponent when used.
• A version can be super and One More! canceled.
• Holding the button on the SB version's hitstun improved. (Not sure if Liz's recovery is better or enemy is stunned longer or what)
• SB version now Fatal Counters.
• B/SB versions now connect with the second hit more easily on an anti-air hit.
• B/SB version's untechable time increased.
• Increased the distance Thanatos moves on the normal B/SB versions.
• Awakened A/B versions come out faster.
• On B/SB version, time until Thanatos disappears is increased (after the hit).

A Mabufudyne (Normal):

• Freeze time increased.
• Time until Elizabeth can use persona skills reduced.

SB Mabufudyne (Awakened):

• Repeated combo time strengthened, and made repeated combo usage easier. (Not sure what this means...)

Magarudyne:

• Fatal Recovery removed.
• Awakened version's hit time, number of hits, and hit intervals reduced. (This sentence is weird)
• Awakened D/SB version's untechable time increased.

SB Magarudyne (Awakened):

• Knockback changed and now moves forward slightly.

Maragidyne:

• Awakened version's startup times decreased.
• All Awakened version's recovery times decreased.

Debilitate:

• Command is now [2]8 A/B/AB
• Is now Fatal Recovery.
• Invincibility removed after successfully catching an attack. (I think?)
• Opponent can now tech in the air after the attack. (I think?)
• A/SB version's startup increased slightly.

A Debilitate:

• All recovery times increased.

Mind Charge:

• B/SB versions SP recovery amount decreased.

SB Mind Charge:

• All recovery times decreased.

Mahamaon/Mamudoon:

• All recovery times decreased.
• Effects no longer disappear when Elizabeth guards an attack.
• Thanatos will now always appear on the ground when activating these moves.
• According to revisions, untechable time was not changed. (??)
• Under certain conditions, can instantly K.O. the opponent. (Seems to be <10s in the round according to those videos/Dreiko's info)

Mahamaon:

• Startup greatly decreased.
• Untechable time increased.
• The opponent is now not forced to float in mid-air when hit.
• Invicibility is only during the super flash. (probably to prevent hax wakeup Mahamaon reversal wins lol)

Mamudoon/SB Mamudoon:

• The time until Elizabeth can use persona skills has been decreased.
• Is now unblockable.
• Attack time reduced. (I think this means how long the hitbox is out was reduced)
• When the skill MISSes (does not IK), does a fixed amount of damage. (Apparently 2000?)
• When the skill MISSes, wall bounces the opponent.

Diarahan:

• After the invincibility period, now creates an attack box.
• HP recovery amount reduced.

SB Diarahan:

• Invincibility time now doesn't end. (This can't be right...maybe projectile invicibility stays even during the recovery??)

Ghastly Wail:

• Now Fatal Recovery. (Damn!)

Megidolaon:

• No longer Fatal Recovery. (lol...)

Guard Cancel Attack:

• Startup time decreased.
• Recovery increased.

1H Sword Master:

• Can now be stacked. (seems up to 9 times)

HP:

• HP increased. (no numbers yet...probably 8500)

All Persona Skills:

• Only when Thantos is appearing, he will be invincible until the attack starts.
• Affects all C skills, A/SB Maziodyne, and all Mabufudynes. (SB Bufu > Fullscreen invincible attack? lol)

(Note this only applies when he is appearing, so 5C spam can still be shut down by other mashing)

Edited January 9, 2015 by firedraco

[Luminos564]

2D:

• Hitbox active time reduced. (?)
• Poison length reduced. (Apparently damage is the same though)

 

Before I start to despair and/or rage over some of these changes (Fatal Recovery on Debilitate/Randomizer and Ghastly Wail... ) let me take a moment to appreciate this little change. Not so much as the hitbox thing, but the second part. OmnixTSC and Elochai brought this up nearly a year ago, but Lizzie always lacked the means to capitalize on most of her status effects sans Fear. But if Poison still does the same amount of damage in a shorter duration? Yeah, you can bet your apple pies that this is an incredibly good thing. Now you don't need lengthy combo strings to make the most of its damage.

 

I suppose however I need to wait and see what happens to her when the players get their hands on her (assuming we even have some left). I want to be optimistic, but some of the stuff has my stomach in a knot.

[Elochai]

That 2D change is actually really cool. Total conjecture but if Garu>2D still works (being that the untechable time is greater I don't see why it wouldn't work), then I imagine that you can use 2D twice in the same combo while getting the full amount of poison damage twice over. In other words an additional unscaled 2.4k if you can use 2D after Garu and I guess after Bufu. 

 

Besides the change of the input, I kinda feel like Randomizer got nerfed. More startup & less untech time really suck. I would guess that you can't combo after it anymore being that the opponent air techs. Not really sure how i feel about Shuffle Time either; increased startup is nice but the change to recovery sucks too. GC still seems worthless. 

 

The other changes I kinda like; none of them really bother me. 

[Zephyrion22]

I honestly really like Liz's changes for this one, even though there are some unneeded nerfs here and there. If Mamudoon is truly UB and deals that much damage while still retaining it's wall splat properties, Hama's IK loss could be replaced by high damage resets, which could kinda make up for it. Just one more week to tell

 

Also what combo do you use out of FC throw Awakened with Lizzy, apart from Mahamaon one ? I think I've found a neat, although a bit hard possibility :

FC throw > 5C>2C>214B>2D>5BB>2AB>236CD(5~4)>2[C] (slight charge)> high jump forward >jC for 3.8k + additional poison damage. The ender looks shabby but still gives you a jA safe-jump, along with the usual airdash jA/empty jump 2A mixups. Not as good as Ice resets and paralysis combos, but you get good damage from it, and a lenghty fear status and HSM bonus from the 2C. Well since I've been playing P4U2 Liz only for a few weeks, this might not be the best thing, so tell me what's best xD !

[TastyPancakez]

2.0 is released. Does anyone know where we can find new info?

Ho-Chan tweeted something. I think Guard Cancel is invul throughout it's animation.

[Kikirin]

2.0 is released. Does anyone know where we can find new info?

 

Liz-specific:

#P4U2エリザベス

 

General aggregator:

http://niceburst.com/timeline 

[RWA Announcer]

INVULNERABLE Guard Cancel Shuffle Time, you say!?  Wut?  YES!!!

[TastyPancakez]

Thanks for the link!

I think I can make out some of them using translate?

HP increased to 8500

Hama > A Bufu (awakening) seems to work, since I think I saw A Bufu > Hama > Zio. But I'm not 100% sure

j.b > j.a > j.c off of a 5D seems to work again (i assume in a non ch hit since i think this route works off of FC anyways)