[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[firedraco]

I think that's when SB Mudo hits... Throw > Mudo should have throw's recovery

 

??? No it doesn't. You are cancelling the throw's recovery with Mudo so you will still have Mudo's recovery, unless I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to say.

[TastyPancakez]

??? No it doesn't. You are cancelling the throw's recovery with Mudo so you will still have Mudo's recovery, unless I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to say.

He added that SB Mudo has knockdown after recovery but throw cancelling into Mudo won't give the throw any properties of Mudo I mean, unless I'm misunderstanding him :s

EDIT: I was actually referring to the enemy's wakeup lol, I guess I used the wrong word

[firedraco]

He added that SB Mudo has knockdown after recovery but throw cancelling into Mudo won't give the throw any properties of Mudo I mean, unless I'm misunderstanding him :s

EDIT: I was actually referring to the enemy's wakeup lol, I guess I used the wrong word

 

Ah, I get it. Yeah, they'd still have the wallbounce etc.

[LightlordIV]

Just a little question: How many of you use 2AB -> slightly delayed 5D? If timed correctly, it seems to be quite safe.

[OmnixTSC]

Just a little question: How many of you use 2AB -> slightly delayed 5D? If timed correctly, it seems to be quite safe.

 

It's not ambiguous, so it actually detracts from the mixup on knockdown. You're better off just going for stagger pressure or a throw after the 2AB if you can't use 2D afterwards. 

[skyler1173]

Is it possible to hit someone out of the laser in 2.0? I just want to know what would happen if you use 236ab while the opponent is between you and thanatos since he changes direction in 2.0. I have a combo that gets thanatos behind them but its not too useful at the moment since all i can use is 5c.

[TastyPancakez]

I'm assuming you're using 5C after an SB Bufu in 1.1? I wouldn't do that, there are so much better options and you really don't have anything else that you can do besides 5D, meaning all the enemy has to do is jump forward to avoid it. Just run up and continue the combo for a little bit or go for some kinda extra pressure like using 236B or something. Like going for resets all the time won't work.

 

In 2.0 in one of the combo videos, you can do 5A FC 1HSM > 5B > 5C > 2C > 214AB > 5C (whiff) > 5C > 214A > 2C > 236AB iirc. I don't think it's that good tbh though there's the possibility of optimization (I think that combo or similar combos to that should be possible without a FC though the double bufu is sketchy.) You should be taking advantage of Bufu's freeze though instead of relying on Thanatos...

[skyler1173]

Well usually after B bufu i use 5c, jc, 5d but if thanatos is too close he goes past them instead of hitting them so im looking for something to use in that case after 2.0

[Elochai]

If you're ending combos with 214B then you can get D Agi to hit meaty for oki. You can also use 2[C] since 214B keeps Thanatos in place. But yeah, Pancakez is pretty much correct. You can't really rely on gimmicks all that much. I don't think they're bad to use once or twice though just to check if your opponent is paying attention.

@Pancakez - Double bufu is a thing in 1.1 too (for example, whatever > 236CD > 214B > 2D > 5B > 5C > 214A > 2C > ender). I know there's a variant of this in 2.0 but the exact combo I don't recall. It's not a bad route though since it's a fair amount of damage for only 50 meter (and the 2.0 variant uses only 25 I think).

[TastyPancakez]

^ Oh I'm aware, I assumed Skyler was talking about using it more fullscreen and going for a reset. I was referring to awakening things and I just realized it wasn't what he was referring to tho lol.

I think the 2.0 is stuff > 236CD > 214B > 2D > 5B(B) > 2AB > 214A > 236D(C?) > stuff

Firstly though @Skylar if 5D misses then Thanatos resets so you then you're back at neutral and have to do some work again (which is another reason why relying on that route is a bad idea.)

I pretty much think relying on that route so much works because you are fighting players who don't know the MU or you're fighting relatively newer players. Which is fine, but sooner or later I think you'd want to explore her other options. Using just Thanatos or trying to go for command grabs is too reckless.

[ZodiarkSavior]

Very auspicious and convincing performances from Hiyuki in the videos referenced here.

 

Though one thing I noted is the fact in P4U2 2.0, you can OMC SB Ziodyne...? Perhaps I glossed over that little bit in previous discussions, but that definitely increases strategic advantages.  Overall, I'm loving the look of the new Elizabeth; she seems to hold a lot more diversity in terms of...Everything, defense capabilities aside. Hamaon being instantaneous honestly opens up to a lot of capitalizing opportunities (Branching Hamaon off of Bufu A, for example...), along with the OMC SB Ziodyne, OMC Bufudyne...Just overall, Elizabeth seems to have a lot more tools at her disposal than before.  She looks like an actual character. Also loving how she can casually string together 3.5-4K~ damage combos without needing to be in Awakening or dump a lot of meter. 

 

On the topic of performances, the unnamed Elizabeth, shown here and here, I'd like to see more of...If only to see the rest of that Mudoon set-up.  The first practical use of Mudoon we could have seen, interrupted by a Burst, quite unfortunately.

 

Anybody know that Elizabeth's name...? Or rather, any more replays?

[Elochai]

I think that Elizabeth is a better character in this version because of the reasons that you mentioned (like better damage:meter and more options at neutral), but I don't think she's quite an "actual character" just yet. She doesn't really "excel" at the meta like the strong characters do. Most of her older problems still exist in 2.0 too afaik, so she still gets beat up. Players like Hiyuki play solidly; it's them for the most part and not Elizabeth. If Elizabeth could do things like fight OSes well and not get blown up for doing gatlings, then I would say she's an actual character. This version of Elizabeth is still pretty cool though.

 

That Elizabeth player is えしでぃし (eshidaishi?), he's currently the 50th ranked Elizabeth player.

[OmnixTSC]

The fact that Liz has meter more often now with the way her routes changed is really big. She can get fear + a safejump 100% of the time now without spending meter pre/post-awakening (nobody does these routes, though lol). Her meter/damage efficiency went up a lot as well as her ability to just convert stray hits into damage.

 

Since she has meter to spare a lot of the time in 2.0, she can afford to spend the meter on dealing with the fuzzy meta imo. Also, with the meta actually refocusing on ground throws because of how big the payoff for baiting a fuzzy OS is, Liz will get more wiggle room in general. Sure, she's still not /great/, but this version of Liz is probably your best bet as far as actually having options goes. She kinda has defensive options now, she has consistent okizeme, she has what it is just short of vanilla damage, her neutral is overall safer...but she still has trouble opening people up and maintaining pressure.

 

All that being said, no one learns the things they really need to with this character. I honestly don't feel like things are going to change lol

[TD]

While better, she's still too risky for people to play her "by the book", or at all really. She really needs better mixup or even more powerful neutral tools (air maragidyne anyone?) to offset her lackluster pressure. As it stands, playing her may be fun but one has to really be dedicated to her in higher level play. The "be better than your opponent" clause also still applies to her and I don't think that is a good strategy at all.

Only the most dedicated, potent players will find uses for her, everyone else will likely just die to higher tiers.

[OmnixTSC]

While better, she's still too risky for people to play her "by the book", or at all really. She really needs better mixup or even more powerful neutral tools (air maragidyne anyone?) to offset her lackluster pressure. As it stands, playing her may be fun but one has to really be dedicated to her in higher level play. The "be better than your opponent" clause also still applies to her and I don't think that is a good strategy at all.

Only the most dedicated, potent players will find uses for her, everyone else will likely just die to higher tiers.

 

Her mixup is fine because of fear, it's just that she probably won't even open you up often enough for it to be relevant. If she does land a hit and keeps momentum, her mixup doesn't weaken at all and she can keep up with the rest of the cast (and even does better than some of them). If her pressure was actually good, she would be more tourney viable for me at least. They really need to change her 5B so it's not a projectile :/

 

Her neutral is a lot better now, but it doesn't give her answers in the matchups that have been an issue for her since Vanilla. Mitsuru, Narukami, Yosuke (MU is a lot easier without glide), and Teddie still answer her options really well, but I feel like she's fine against almost everyone else in 2.0.

 

I feel like overall Liz works in 2.0, she just needs a little more help to get to where we want her.

 

Also, I don't see how air maragidyne would fix anyone of her issues. You'd have to explain that one as there's no situation where I can see that being useful

[TD]

I think you are misunderstanding me just a little. I'm saying that her pressure is bad because her options are based on your foe standing there and not reacting to what they can with a little effort, on top of it being hard to open people up; and not opening people up is, in fact, a mixup problem. None of what she does matters if she cannot get that first hit, and that is the whole problem, that unlike many other characters in this game, she has no way to force a knockdown on higher level players because her options are too straightforward and easy to block, because there is only strike and throw mixup outside of certain crossups. Aoa still isn't very reliable and ja can only be good as an OH with 50 sp. also, she can lose momentum, and although she might fare a little better in a neutral situation after that, she is still back to square one, which is, initially opening the foe up. Even if she had an overhead that just knocked down like labrys guillotine axe, she would be much better.

Momentum mixup is a thing, and I agree, her post knockdown mixup is on par with some other good character's. That should be how it is, you deserve it after the knockdown, and that is how many characters in fighting games are structured.

Playing neutral and starting pressure is where the 'be better' thing applies, because they require a lot of hard reading, and many times the foe can react before or after you do something with her, like before on 5d, and after on zio (though zio a lot less than before, you still have to be decent at throwing it out.) in pressure, her lack of options pre knockdown means getting a bit can be extremely difficult. And with a similar, risky neutral, she makes for a generally risky character who keeps risking her neck for multiple knockdowns when it is hard to even get started.

This is why I believe she should have at least one reliable overhead, and/or a better, safer neutral. Air agi is just something I would like to see, and of course it would need some synergy with her other moves. I thought about it, and I think it would be a decent air to ground.

-high up, certain charge attacks/beams won't hit you or Thanatos, minus those entire screen projectiles

- it will safely bring the foe closer to you or toward the corner, or force them to jump, giving her more chances to extend pressure.

-it would provide a mixup between c and d agi that isn't as risky as it is now: they run in and you do c ago, they are dragged back to their original position. D agi will push them toward you, and if air actions are allowed after agi, could even lead into a small ja/low mixup.

-gives another option on oki that cannot be as easily punished with a dp, though it would involve a certain amount of committal

The caveats would be the slow wind-up time so people can still punish in the air, entire screen supers, air to airs, people who generally like being in the air, certain dp's, and using the wrong agi. It may not fix her existing problems but it would make the chance of her getting a hit more likely up close. It would also give her even better zone control, possibly making it harder to hit her where she is at her weakest, and encouraging people to come at her quickly without thinking, boosting her chance of getting info on the foe. Anyway, this is just a prototype example of what I mean by having the same pressure but still being able to dominate with more options.

It may seem like I'm disagreeing but I'm agreeing with mostly everything you've said. I think Liz is good too, but her weaknesses are still large enough and unforgiving to the point where playing her, you have to fully know her and the foe's options on a much more tuned scale than say, playing top tiers and many other characters. She isn't the safest thing for the amount of reward she gets initially, and I definitely see that as a turn off for some people. We can't argue with statistics.

[OmnixTSC]

I understand what you mean, but I don't agree with you. I was exaggerating with the 'she probably won't even open you up in the first place' thing and should've used some emotes or something to convey that, but what I really meant is that she can't maintain offense with how she covers options in 1.1 and somewhat in 2.0. Not super well, anyways (thanks, fuzzy meta). Outside of calling out fuzzy jumps, everything else she needs to pressure the opponent is there. Liz has great stagger pressure that can easily throw off an opponent's timing for using defensive options. She could probably just use some more frame advantage on her dash cancels(?). I feel with the way her overall toolset works now...we really don't want Liz to have super strong pressure. She's going to have meter a lot more often to cover the issues she has on offense, so I honestly don't want her to get more stuff in that area. I really want that 5B fix, though. 

 

Her neutral is fine if you watch your spacing in 2.0 and it doesn't involve as much risk as it did in previous versions, which is great. It still requires some hard reads, but they're reads we can make with less commitment and we can still press an advantage if we don't get a hit. Also, as far as overheads go, an overhead wouldn't help her pressure as it doesn't change the fact that she can't deal with fuzzy OSes well. Her stagger pressure would be more than enough if she could cover those options more frequently without burning resources. 

 

What you listed as downsides for an air maragidyne are exactly what makes it bad in comparison to our current grounded version. If we are indeed using it high up in the air instead of TK'ing it, our options are much more limited than the normal maragidyne. You would be locking yourself into using purely air actions with a move that has a good bit of startup. This means you have no reversal options, you can't roll or guard cancel, you really can't even press a button if someone gets past the flames. Liz already has trouble covering the space directly beneath her, so in most cases this would be a free anti-air if the opponent was close-enough or at least free pressure since you can't contest this space. If they jumped over the flames, your answers would usually have too much startup to contest space and still don't cover certain ranges well. The threat from maragidyne at neutral would still be nearly nonexistant.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't really follow your logic on the maragidyne bit. Basic player interactions would blow up what you're suggesting we could use this for (I mean, people could just run at you after seeing the startup animation as it shouldn't share one in the air with any other move) and nothing is actually different from the current maragidyne. It would still show up in the same spot, the recovery would be marginally different, but because of how the move itself works, this wouldn't change anything. Agi oki isn't a thing unless it's with 214B > 214D ender pre-awakening, and the mixup would actually be worse with the air version as you wouldn't be able to adjust the timing or spacing without touching the ground first which would effectively kill any 50/50 mixups. 

[ZodiarkSavior]

For Maragidyne, I'd love to see it not fizzle in corners so you could pressure wake-ups like you could in P4A...

[OmnixTSC]

For Maragidyne, I'd love to see it not fizzle in corners so you could pressure wake-ups like you could in P4A...

 

That oki was beyond dumb in P4U. I guess you guys wouldn't mind bullying people with it, though lol

[TD]

I guess you are right, I probably am not looking at the bigger picture.

The agidyne was just an example though. Not really something that should fix her at all, just something I would have liked to see personally, and trying to emphasize my point of a stronger neutral which is now moot.

[Speakeasy]

I don't remember if I posted it already and I'm too lazy to check. The Liz Skype group is open. If you'd like to join, please DM me your info either here or on Twitter.

[TastyPancakez]

Is Randomizer invul on start-up? I've been hit out of it but I'm not sure if it's cause I'm misinputting

[Elochai]

Meaties beat Randomizer since it's only invul from frame 4 onward. 

[Speakeasy]

SB Randomizer/Debilitate is invul frame 2 if I remember correctly, but still loses to meaties because of that.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[NaotoKuroShiro]

I was thumbing through the artbook for p4a/p4au and found this at the characters page! thought it would be cool to share! looks like it was going to be an air grab/special for liz but it was cut out for some reason.