[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[So-Called-Chaos]

just a couple of quick notes after 5 mins of playing Elizabeth, 5C and 5B dash cancel are great Mamudoon SB still as bad as Mamudoon, you can continue after 2D, like 2D then into 5C from fullscreen but not sure if you can combo in to 2D then out of it also has faster recovery, imo new 5AA is MUCH better than the old 5AA, I'll try to see what else I can dish out

 

edit and 5C<OMC<5C is still there, I was afraid they removed it but you have to time it well because if you cancel it early, only the first hit connects then thanatos disappears unlike in arena

 

another edit lol you can't go from 2B into J.2B but you can do 2B<J.B<J.2B without jump canceling the 2B

[So-Called-Chaos]

Possible to combo from awakening A Maziodyne without fear using OMC of course, awakening B Maziodyne has Lizzie recover after sweep, so you can sweep then do Awak. B zio and she recovers before the opponent does which is great

 

edit 5AA has better hitstun than 5BB

[So-Called-Chaos]

regular A Bufu is fast enough to use after 5C.

 

I was able to do 5AA<Sweep< Unawakened SB Garu< Unawakened D Garu< 5A< 5C< 2C< Unawakened SB Bufu< Unawakened D Agi, which did around 2980-3000 points, It worked on Aigis, Chie, Yu, Kanji and Akihiko, you don't even need to do the elevator thing by pressnig up then down, just holding down works fine and getting the timing of the second Garu, regular D garu looks easier to combo off of.

 

both A and B regular Zios have much better recovery than before.

 

Regular D garu prorates awefully, I tried D garu<Sweep< D Garu on aki, didn't work and he teched before I could 5A or 5B him

 

even on fatal after doing the second D Garu I went into 5A<5C<2C he teched before the 2C

 

2C does 400 now instead of 600

 

feel free to ask for more about information or questions and I'll do my best to try it out

[So-Called-Chaos]

OK this is a good one, this worked on kanji, chie, yu and naoto.

 

on fatal: 5AA<Sweep<Awa.SB Garu<Awa. D Garu<J.B<J.A<J.C<2A<5B<5C<2C<Awak.SB Bufu<Awak. D Agi, using the same holding down method I mentioned above.

 

although the gap between the awak.D garu and J.B is somewhat tight, it did about 4000-4200 which is pretty good for 50 meter.

[So-Called-Chaos]

I was able to do Awak. A Bufu twice on normal and up to 5 times on fatal, Bufu loops are back maybe?

[OmnixTSC]

snip

 

Please edit your post when you have something to add and you're the last poster. This is just so we can avoid clutter. 

 

5B > D Garu still works on airborne opponents, for the record. D garu still has a use! Rejoice!

 

Bace stuff:

5A > 5AA > 2AB > 236CD > 2B > j.B >  5B > 2AB > 236D~9~2 > 5C > 2C > 214AB > 214D > 2AB > 2D (3930 Damage)

5D > 5A > 5AA > 2AB > 236D~9~2 > 5B > 2B > j.B > j.2B > j.C (2847 Damage)

FC 5B > 2AB > 236CD > 2B > j.B > j.A > j.C > 2B > j.B > 5B > 2AB > 236D~9~2 > 5C > 2C >214AB > 214D > 2AB > 2D (4558 Damage)

 

My stuff:

CH j.C > 2A > 5B > 2AB > D Garu > 2B > j.B > 5B > 5C > 2C > 214AB > 214D > 2AB (4119 Damage)

[So-Called-Chaos]

sorry XD I won't clutter anymore.

 

and D garu stil being useful is great of course.

[Eshi]

That 5AA route looks really damn good, I hope it's a little more consistent than last game. Bace already putting in work jeeze.

[RifleAvenger]

That damage, unawakened, with 5A starter. Ends in poison. Every time I think I'm done with this character, I just get pulled back in.

[Luminos564]

That damage, unawakened, with 5A starter. Ends in poison. Every time I think I'm done with this character, I just get pulled back in.

 

Oh no worries. A couple horrible beatings at the hands of the Narukarmy, Brosuke Taskforce, Mitsuru Assassins and Teddie Saboteurs will ensure you remember why you wanted to leave in the first place  .

 

I'm keeping a close eye on everything Lizzie related from this point forward. I dunno whether to leave because I know only pain awaits if I stick around or stay and endure it because Lizzie is honestly the only character I care about. Hopefully the coming vids and info will help me decide.

[OmnixTSC]

Ooooh, I forgot to tell you guys last night. Thank god Elochai reminded me on twitter.

 

236 in awakening doesn't exist. At all. The move literally has that much startup. There's no charging/holding the button down and then moving around. Awakened 236B just takes that long to be active. 

 

Also, I'll try to find more combos for you guys today. I'll also put all the stuff bace finds in the combo thread for you all.

[Elochai]

If you're a total execution scrub like me, you'd be happy to know that you can "bootleg" d garu combos in this version the same way you did in P4U1. 8~2 works if 9~2 is too hard (yay!).

Also:

 

Regular mode, midscreen:
5CD FC OMC >66 2B>jc jB>jA>jC>2B>delay jB>5B>5C(2)>2C>214AB>214D>2AB = 3817

 

Awakening mode, midscreen:

5CD FC>66 5C(2)>214AB>214D>44 5B>2B>jB>jc jB>j2B>jC = 3900

 

I just got the game so I'm still figuring stuff out. Hoping to contribute more soon!

[OmnixTSC]

If you're a total execution scrub like me, you'd be happy to know that you can "bootleg" d garu combos in this version the same way you did in P4U1. 8~2 works if 9~2 is too hard (yay!).

 

It's basically the same thing either way. 9~2 just gives more corner carry and the timing is slightly more strict for landing 5C afterwards. So the timing thing is comparable to old garu stuff.

 

I'll look over your notes and make my own list alongside it, Elochai. I'll just fool around on my own for now, though.

[Luminos564]

236 in awakening doesn't exist. At all. The move literally has that much startup. There's no charging/holding the button down and then moving around. Awakened 236B just takes that long to be active.

 

Wait what? Is this for Awakening only or does that apply to pre-Awakening as well? I seem to recall that 236B can be held in pre-Awakening as it can still fire the regular (P4A)-sized blast but I'd appreciate confirmation. Still that would explain why everyone either tends to use Maziodyne [A] or [sB] primarily in Awakening.

 

Also thanks to you and Elochai. If nothing else, you guys get to explore the character yourselves instead of relying on videos.

[GBAer64]

I just got the game so I'm still figuring stuff out. Hoping to contribute more soon!

YUS! Now we can finally find confirmation on what Lizzie's like now! : D

 

Is it me or does D garu have less recovery than P4U had?

In those combo videos, it seems like she can act almost immediately after reaching the ground.

[Elochai]

I'll look over your notes and make my own list alongside it, Elochai. I'll just fool around on my own for now, though.

 

Firstly, I wanna apologize for the shaky-cam phone video. Secondly, I decided to record a 236 oki...thing. Did I do this wrong or something? I'm pretty sure it's viable oki.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaGCQC3goeg

[GBAer64]

Firstly, I wanna apologize for the shaky-cam phone video. Secondly, I decided to record a 236 oki...thing. Did I do this wrong or something? I'm pretty sure it's viable oki.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaGCQC3goeg

Doesn't matter, just being able to show the video is enough (I'm too much of a wuss to just show my own... .- .; and it's great quality still. You hear the game, you see the game, eh perfection!

Moving on...

 

Edit: I'm pretty sure that's a viable oki, I guess it's just no effective when facing characters with Furious Attacks like Yu's or Mitsuru's (maybe her but I think it covers less distance than Yu's so the space between Thanny-poo and the opponent might be some).

 

I didn't think that you could use an oki like that!? 0_0 That's pretty clever actually. Good job! *Ovation

 

What kind of Mabufudyne did you use in that combo though? Looks like the A version but I'm not sure...

[Elochai]

Well I was mashing DP w/ Narukami just to show that that setup can get around Narukami's DP. Maybe I'd get more accurate results if I had a stick w/ turbo buttons or something. I was mashing as fast as possible, though.

I used 214AB. A doesn't freeze long enough to allow you to setup 236B.

 

I wanna try Randomizer on oki too...

[OmnixTSC]

Wait what? Is this for Awakening only or does that apply to pre-Awakening as well? I seem to recall that 236B can be held in pre-Awakening as it can still fire the regular (P4A)-sized blast but I'd appreciate confirmation. Still that would explain why everyone either tends to use Maziodyne [A] or [sB] primarily in Awakening.

 

You can't hold it for pre-awakened 236B, either. I'm really not liking how our confirms are now.

 

NOTHING works the same in this game. Throw all of your old confirms out b/c they legitimately do not work now. Most air-to-airs or anti-airs with a 2AB > Garu in it will drop before the sweep connects. The routes we have to take are so different and the reward off them is worse now. I really don't know how to feel about some of this.

 

Did I do this wrong or something? I'm pretty sure it's viable oki.

 

No, the setup is somewhat real. They can always just air-to-air you with air throw to get out of it, though. If they do, your mixup isn't really there outside of a high/low/throw.

[TD]

It's legit, but is It threatening? Enough, rather. Because being able to beat a DP in this game is good for oki. But what else can it do?

You may be able to setup throws or other tricky stuff like empty jump if you ended with 5a instead of 5b. It gives them more time to press a button though. Or you can end the 5b in the middle if it's active instead of the end. Less time for them to mash and more time for a setup.

Seems good though and worth doing up close. Better than maragidyne oki last game in the corner at least. Speaking of has anyone tried doing that yet?

[Luminos564]

You can't hold it for pre-awakened 236B, either. I'm really not liking how our confirms are now.

 

Son of a...that's just cruel. Sounds like you're now basically forced to use either the [A] Maziodyne with horrible recovery and hitbox or use 25 SP for the [sB] version since is sounding far too unsafe to throw out randomly. 

 

NOTHING works the same in this game. Throw all of your old confirms out b/c they legitimately do not work now. Most air-to-airs or anti-airs with a 2AB > Garu in it will drop before the sweep connects. The routes we have to take are so different and the reward off them is worse now. I really don't know how to feel about some of this.

 

ASW what is the matter with you? What do you have against Lizzie? Whenever I read stuff like this, I wonder what kind of sick joke this is. If you of all people are saying this, what does that mean for people like me who are probably nowhere near that level? Please tell me there's at least something that's good because it is sounding more and more like most of Lizzie's pros are far outweighed by the laundry list of cons.

[Elochai]

I'm free tomorrow, so I'll test that setup vs a lot of different options. I still think a Randomizer variant could work.

I think some of the combos in this version are kinda wonky, but overall, it's not too bad. You just kinda end up going down the same 2-3 routes anyway. I agree with Omnix on the reward for hitconfirming though, at least to some extent. I just wish Liz got something midscreen. Maragi oki midscreen was pretty cool in P4U1. I wish we still had something like that. I suppose you can argue that you can just stick 2D on to the end of a lot of combos, but it's not as good imo.

 

@TD: I don't think maragidyne oki works anymore. I've tried both awakening & normal versions. I think our best bet for corner oki is 2[C] or awakening 236B. 

[Dazardz]

This game came out already? What the hell? Where have I been?

 

I won't be able to get it for personal reasons but I'll be sticking around this thread again.

[TD]

That's too bad about agi, loved those blue flames for oki. Oh well.

Liz is even more passive now. It is harder to keep the foe where you want them which sort of contradicts the character as a whole. No more big girl damage hurts the most. What are we supposed to do?

So far I have two game plans. Get fear paralyze and/or poison on the foe and pressure them depending on the ailment and character. I really like poison for her but it's still a little impractical. The passive damage synchronizes well with her rather passive play style and she becomes more akin to a zoner. Her pressure is really annoying now too you can't just be like "oh she 5c or 2c'd now die", she can keep on pressing buttons if she does the right moves at the right time, wasting time on that poison. It's still Liz though and she still sort of gimmicky but less so, so this could work.

Parafear is a staple and strong, but she still lacks a big threat. Throw is still her strongest option though. It is easier to slip them in now. Even though 5d got nerfed she still has an ok throw mixup. Not much else to say here. Paralysis also affects her passive play style while fear is more momentum based and really good with her multiple frametraps.

My other gameplan is using her neutral game to gain enough meter for death combos. This is hard against non shadow characters but doable. It requires us to really take bursts into account. The optimal, pretty much required scenario is us having a burst and the foe having none no time soon. Anything that depends on the foe is inconsistent within itself. Plus we need meter and execution. Going back to the neutral, she gained a few decent buffs. Zio is still good because she is one of the few characters with an instant beam. It's also more safe. Personally I like new b zio. With enough conditioning it allows her to get in better than agi would allow. It's more safe as well. Sb zio in awakening is clearly the best at this though and a decent neutral tool. Agi is less risky to throw out and the huge hitboxes still basically guarantee a mixup if you used the right flames come out. They IMO are in the same boat as he zio, except zio hitbox is better all around for getting people no matter where they are horizontally.

I used to think of her as a passive grappler zoner hybrid but now she's like some sort of... Something. She requires innovation that's for sure. You guys can feel free to correct me on anything or share your own gameplans.

[OmnixTSC]

Poison wasn't really impractical, it was just used mostly in situational setups that you had to know of. There were a good number of places where you could use it last game and have it pay off (like during staggers when people over-respect), and there are more of those now with Liz having access to poison setups mid-combo in awakening. I didn't use poison as much as I should have last game, but I'm starting to understand just how useful it is.

 

Her staggers are much better now with hop-cancels and dash-cancels. Our new stagger pressure also allows us to enforce the threat of a failed throw tech with CH j.C leading to a good 4k+ both in and out of awakening (It's more like 5.2-6k based on CH/FC in awakening b/c of poison). Honestly, I felt her staggers were pretty scary last game. If you could condition your opponent, you could potentially kill them for falling into a pattern with blocking/reacting to things off of your next confirm.

 

I agree with most of what you said as far as general gameplans go, TD. 

 

The only thing I'll say is that I truly felt that Liz's corner oki was ridiculously stupid last game. Most of it was entirely rigged, with Agi oki killing anything that wasn't blocking if you didn't have a 5F normal (though there were ways to deal wit this as well). If they failed to handle your mixup/setplay, the round was over 95% of the time unless you did the wrong combo...which I'm guilty of doing 

 

Oh, also...there's this bullshit.