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[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

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just a quick note, J.2B is not air-unblockable.

 

edit: SB mamudoon doesn't place the seal in front of lizzie as mentioned, it just places it in front of wherever thanatos is, even if he's in the air.

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Elizabeth absolutely still has big girl damage, it's just different what combos she needs to do for it. Bace found pre-awakening D garu combos. Awakening Liz can combo into SB Garu/Bufu > 2D for huge poison damage. In return, her offensive options were expanded greatly and opponents can't just reaction punish everything.

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I did some testing with the awakening 236B setup. If you use 5B, you can either go for a safejump or a crossup with IAD backdash (as you all know). From what I can see, the safejump* is the best option. You lose the ability to cross your oppponent up, but you can still get a mixup. If they block the beam, you can always do an airdash late in your jump and jA. If you very slightly delay 236B after 214AB, there should be no chance of escape. Upback/air grab attempts should be FC'd by 236B since the beam would go active during the first 5f of the opponent's jump. Once the opponent begins to respect you in the corner, then I suppose you can start going for the crossup variant of this setup. If you land the crossup or if the opponent gets hit during their upback, you can always follow up w/ 5A>5AA>whatever. You can essentially create a vortex (sorta kinda).

 

Another option with this setup is Randomizer. TD mentioned 5A giving the opponent time to press buttons, so I was inspired to try this. Slightly delaying 236B allows Liz to be safe during the recovery of Randomizer. If the opponent doesn't mash after your 5A, you get a free pressure reset from 236B's activation. With the right spacing, this setup is even DP safe** against some characters as their DPs will whiff. The problem with this setup though is that moves with a lot of invul don't give a fuck. In that scenario, you kinda go into a scramble I suppose since 236B is long gone by then. Some reversals completely destroy Randomizer too (like SB Cross Slash for example), so I suppose you have to use your discretion. Against some characters like Sho, you pretty much have to do 5A>delay Randomizer or you'd get counterhit. You can also go for 5A>grab once your opponent has been conditioned to not do anything. If you whiff, 236B should cover you.

 

If there is a flaw to be found in my results, I do hope someone will correct me. Back to the lab, I guess~

 

*= Tested against Narukami, Kanji, Sho, Minazuki, and Mitsuru.
**= Tested against Minazuki & Narukami.

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Saw this on a Youtube comment. Is this true? 

"SB Mind charge makes her enter awakening without decreasing her health"

 

I doubt it's true because people keep insisting that SB Mind Charge has no purpose but just making sure.

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Well I guess that's true in a sense? SB/B are the only ones that give you blue health iirc. You can't go into awakening without losing 65% or whatever it is to begin with anyway.

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Saw this on a Youtube comment. Is this true? 

"SB Mind charge makes her enter awakening without decreasing her health"

 

I doubt it's true because people keep insisting that SB Mind Charge has no purpose but just making sure.

 

Well I guess that's true in a sense? SB/B are the only ones that give you blue health iirc. You can't go into awakening without losing 65% or whatever it is to begin with anyway.

 

What Elochai said. Added think about it this way: if SB Mind Charge really DID Awaken her at the current health (no decreasing or blue health) we would already have seen players use it. Seriously, that'd actually be very good for her. You lose all of 25 SP since SB Mind Charge takes 75, but when you Awaken you get 50 back so not a large loss and you gain access to arguably better tools. But since I've seen 0 players ever pull it out should tell you that it does not function that way.

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What Elochai said. Added think about it this way: if SB Mind Charge really DID Awaken her at the current health (no decreasing or blue health) we would already have seen players use it. Seriously, that'd actually be very good for her. You lose all of 25 SP since SB Mind Charge takes 75, but when you Awaken you get 50 back so not a large loss and you gain access to arguably better tools. But since I've seen 0 players ever pull it out should tell you that it does not function that way.

Yeah, that is true. Guess I shouldn't have been so hasty :p

So basically SB Mind Charge has no reasonable functionality - I've seen people saying that, so I guess it's true. :/

I think that particular Youtube comment was mostly wrong anyways. Also, not that this is top priority, but what are Elizabeth's challenges like? Are the combos there mostly optimal? (the advanced ones)

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Okay, I ran through challenge mode real quick since you asked about it. For the most part, I think that there're better combos than the ones challenge mode gives you. However, I would say that #23 is pretty useful. It's a combo off of Randomizer in regular mode (though I think that there's a better route off of Randomizer).

Btw, if anyone figures out what challenge 25 is, let me know please lol.

 

Combo 25 is SB Randomizer into Hama. I'll try to figure this one out.

 

Fellow (Japanese) Elizabeth player Setora helped me out. You can do 64AB>5B>5C(2)>214AB>236236C>5B>5BB>2AB>236CD>2C>236AB>5A>5AA>5B>2B>jC>j236C for challenge 25.

 

It's actually a viable combo imo.

Edited by Elochai

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So basically SB Mind Charge has no reasonable functionality - I've seen people saying that, so I guess it's true. :/

 

Yeah I think I am one of the most vocal ones when it comes to letting people know just which of Lizzie's moves serve absolutely no purpose. SB Mind Charge has always been one of them (along with [D] Ghastly Wail, Mamudoon/SB Mamudoon, normal Mabufudyne). It is rather upsetting at times when 4 moves are useless and others range from "OK" to "I hope you don't whiff here".

 

Okay, I ran through challenge mode real quick since you asked about it. For the most part, I think that there're better combos than the ones challenge mode gives you. However, I would say that #23 is pretty useful. It's a combo off of Randomizer in regular mode (though I think that there's a better route off of Randomizer).

Btw, if anyone figures out what challenge 25 is, let me know please lol.

 

Combo 25 is SB Randomizer into Hama. I'll try to figure this one out.

 

Fellow (Japanese) Elizabeth player Setora helped me out. You can do 64AB>5B>5C(2)>214AB>236236C>5B>5BB>2AB>236CD>2C>236AB>5A>5AA>5B>2B>jC>j236C for challenge 25.

 

It's actually a viable combo imo.

 

That sounds like fun and much easier to deal with than say that Challenge 30 in P4A. I still haven't gotten it despite completing all 29 challenges prior to it. It's a shame Randomizer is such an awkward move...wait, hold that thought: what are your thoughts on it Elochai? Is the charge motion difficult to get accustomed to and pull off?

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Eh, charging it is okay. I can't really explain the amount of charge time required, but it's about the same time it takes for Liz to walk 3~ steps. You can always charge it while you're doing other moves though. It's not hard once you do it one or two times.

Speaking of Randomizer, SB Randomizer is so good. In regular mode, you can combo off of it for 4k + every status ailment Liz has sans charm/confuse. If it wasn't a counter move, it'd be busted.

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Eh, charging it is okay. I can't really explain the amount of charge time required, but it's about the same time it takes for Liz to walk 3~ steps. You can always charge it while you're doing other moves though. It's not hard once you do it one or two times.

Speaking of Randomizer, SB Randomizer is so good. In regular mode, you can combo off of it for 4k + every status ailment Liz has sans charm/confuse. If it wasn't a counter move, it'd be busted.

(Thanks for looking up challenge mode for me btw ^^)

Randomizer sounds awesome. I stink at execution and can barely do Mitsuru (best I did with her was a 5K) but I don't think Randomizer will be that hard to use.

Also I guess in regards to your Randomizer set-up it kind of looks like a thing you'd watch the enemy's meter for, or MU knowledge considering what kind of reversals the enemy has. (probably being Captain Obvious here but yeah.) IDK, keeping in mind that I'm a non-competitive player I feel like another approach to this would be to bait the enemy breaking the persona card by like...placing 236B really close to the enemy. Then get a CH off of it. Trying to come up with something but I'm not sure that would work against more experienced players ^^"

Also not sure if this was tested but how does Randomizer react against projectiles? (Yukiko's fans/Yukari's arrows)

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Elizabeth absolutely still has big girl damage, it's just different what combos she needs to do for it. Bace found pre-awakening D garu combos. Awakening Liz can combo into SB Garu/Bufu > 2D for huge poison damage. In return, her offensive options were expanded greatly and opponents can't just reaction punish everything.

Which Garu and bufu combos give poison to end? I don't see them on the wiki. Close sb bufu is obvi but the others I'm not getting.

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^ Yeah but I think lots of his info was false

 

Whoo boy, you have no idea just how false it is. There really ought to be a law against stupid, blatant misinformation like this:

 

 Mind charge gives her blue health until she enters awakening

SB Mind charge makes her enter awakening without decreasing her health

randomizer inflicts panic always fatal counter

SB randomizer inflitss negative penalty instantly

Diarahan restores one persona card and recovers 10% of burst per heal

In awakening gains 10 % damage buff and invigorate is 50% more effective

bufu zio and agi can be cancelled into eachother.

2D mist travels 2 longer and follows opponent recovery and startup decreased

Shuffle time not techable

 

So let's break it down, piece by piece. For fun and profit Lizzie!

 

-Only the and [sB] version give her Awakening and blue health. [A] does not.

-LOL no. It'd be good if this were true. All it does is give her [A] version with blue health basically. 

-Randomizer only inflicts Negative Penalty and it will not cause Fatal Counter unless they're under Fear or use a move with Fatal Counter recovery on the move.

-[sB] Randomizer, like the other versions only inflicts Negative Penalty when they land. The only difference is that you can combo easier from the [sB] version before they fall.

-No. Diarahan only restores health and nothing more. [A] heals little, can be held but is vulnerable and [sB] is projectile invulnerable and can be held. It doesn't do anything else.

-Pfffft hahaha oh how I frakkin' WISH this was the case. It'd make Lizzie all the more dangerous for the opponent. But nope, no damage or Invigorate buffs in Awakenining. Only moves with different properties.

-No they cannot. They'd be incredibly useful pseudo rekkas (hope I am using this right) then. You could do fun shit like Maziodyne>Maragydyne>Mabufudyne or any combination of the 3.

-Pure bullcrap not even worth discussing.

-Utter nonsense. It'd be good if they couldn't tech it but they sadly can and always will be able to unless they're mashing wildly or under Fear.

 

Thus we can only deduce that this guy pretending to be Ken Amada is either drunk off his ass or trolling (probably the latter).

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Which Garu and bufu combos give poison to end? I don't see them on the wiki. Close sb bufu is obvi but the others I'm not getting.

 

Well you can do something like SB bufu>214D>2AB>2D at midscreen most of the time if you want poison. There's xx>214AB>2D>5A>5AA>2AB in the corner too. You can get 2D off of awakening garu in routes like xx>236CD[8~2]>2D>2A>xx. 

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I would say it would be optimal and safe since the opponent is in the air and requires something to hit diagonally down with or something. I'm pretty sure most, if not, all moves like that in the game require enough startup for us top block from the assault if they try that.

 

Let alone the fact that they have to worry about the poison taking too much health away is another thing.

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We are only able to end a combo with 2AB > 2D if the combo hasn't prorated too much. Most characters can punish 2AB > 2D b/c they recover quickly with more than enough time to either press a button or dash at you to punish.

I remember being told there was an alternative for landing 2D at the end when that is the case, but I don't remember what it is off the top of my head :(

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Which Garu and bufu combos give poison to end? I don't see them on the wiki. Close sb bufu is obvi but the others I'm not getting.

Check out the most recent combo video from Damosu in the video thread. Basically, Liz can do any confirm > SB Garu > land > 2D > 2A. She has to do some weird directional timing on the Garu to land in time to just barely link a 2A, it's hard as balls to land consistently but the damage is super worth it. 

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Whoo boy, you have no idea just how false it is. There really ought to be a law against stupid, blatant misinformation like this:

 

 

So let's break it down, piece by piece. For fun and profit Lizzie!

 

-Only the and [sB] version give her Awakening and blue health. [A] does not.

-LOL no. It'd be good if this were true. All it does is give her [A] version with blue health basically. 

-Randomizer only inflicts Negative Penalty and it will not cause Fatal Counter unless they're under Fear or use a move with Fatal Counter recovery on the move.

-[sB] Randomizer, like the other versions only inflicts Negative Penalty when they land. The only difference is that you can combo easier from the [sB] version before they fall.

-No. Diarahan only restores health and nothing more. [A] heals little, can be held but is vulnerable and [sB] is projectile invulnerable and can be held. It doesn't do anything else.

-Pfffft hahaha oh how I frakkin' WISH this was the case. It'd make Lizzie all the more dangerous for the opponent. But nope, no damage or Invigorate buffs in Awakenining. Only moves with different properties.

-No they cannot. They'd be incredibly useful pseudo rekkas (hope I am using this right) then. You could do fun shit like Maziodyne>Maragydyne>Mabufudyne or any combination of the 3.

-Pure bullcrap not even worth discussing.

-Utter nonsense. It'd be good if they couldn't tech it but they sadly can and always will be able to unless they're mashing wildly or under Fear.

 

Thus we can only deduce that this guy pretending to be Ken Amada is either drunk off his ass or trolling (probably the latter).

Sorry guy asked for buffs I made up some stupid shit on a wimp

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I just don't like the way Liz plays anymore. Maybe it's because I haven't played P4A in a while or I still have to get used to her new stuff, but I find myself struggling already.

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