[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[firedraco]

Some random stuff in no real order:

 

その他 Aコンセが111回収+覚醒ボーナス50 Bコンセが36(?)+覚醒ボーナス50 SBコンセが83+覚醒ボーナス50

 

Other:

A Mind Charge - 111 Meter + Awakening Bonus (50)

B Mind Charge - 36 Meter + Awakening Bonus (50)

SB Mind Charge - 83 Metter + Awakening Bonus (50)

 

弱体化点 覚醒Aジオがchしてもバウンドしない SBジオの感電時間大幅短縮 覚醒SBガルの初段がきつい 強化点 フラグ5Cの同技軽減 フラグストック制 JDの距離増加 通常Bジオが戦犯クラスに強い ブフomc可能 ハマが即発動(即死は残り10cになったら)

 

Nerfs:

A Zio doesn't wall bounce on counter hit

SB Zio shock time down a lot

Awakening SB Garu is very difficult/tight (??)

 

Improvements:

5C w/ 1H Swd Master SMP reduced

Can stack 1H Swd Master flags

JD range increased

Normal B Zio is stupidly good

Can OMC Bufus

Hama comes out instantly (IKs only happen at <10s left in the round)

 

強化点2 5D>JB>JA>JC>〜ルート復活 覚醒Dガル受身不能時間増加 ガルに被fc削除 体力8500 B.SBブフが与fc技

 

Improvements 2:

5D > JB > JA > JC > ... route is back

Awakening D Garu untechable time up

Garu no longer fatal recovery

Life now 8500

B/SB Bufu Fatal Counter

 

端投げscSBコンセ足Dガル～

 

When at the edge of the screen, you can Throw > SB Mind Charge > Sweep > D Garu

 

ブフ毒と言うかハマコン以外は据え置きでコンボ使えてかつDJBJAJC拾い復活

 

Bufu/Poison combos appear to still work

5D>JB>JA>JC works again

 

EDIT: Forgot this:

 

5C>Aブフ>Aコンセ>低ダJB>JC>2A>5B>5C>2C>覚醒SBジオ>5B>2B>JC

 

5C>A Bufu>A Mind Charge>Micro Dash JB (I think is probably IAD though)>JC>2A>5B>5C>2C>Awakened SB Zio>5B>2B>JC

 

5BBB>足払い>SBガル~

 

5BBB>Sweep>SB Garu works

 

5C>覚醒Aブフ>ハマ(not即死)>ハマ発動>ダッシュ5B>5C>2C>SBジオ>5B>2B>JC(頭悪い)

5C>Awakened A Bufu>Hama (non-IK)>Hama Activation>Dash 5B>5C>2C>SB Zio>5B>2B>JC (delayed)

 

・SBジオ張り付きが短くなったとあるがあんま気にしないレベル。

・SBムドオン、固定ダメージ2000、ガー不。

・フラグ5Cの残像は申し訳程度

・コンセは前のツイートで書いた通り。Bコンセ産廃でHPが多いときに使うならSB、それ以外ならAコンセ

 

SB Zio's wall stick didn't seem to go down that much; I didn't really notice it

SB Mudoon is unblockable/does minimum 2k damage

5C w/ 1H Swd Master has afterimages

Like written earlier, B Mind Charge is trash. If you have lots of HP use SB Mind Charge, otherwise use the A version

 

・2Dの持続約5カウント

・SBジオがダウンしたあとの感電時間が1.5カウントぐらい

・JDがめっちゃ早い牽制で振るのもいい

・Aディアの回復量Pカードの幅2枚分ぐらい、BディアPカード1枚分ぐらい、SBディアAディアと同じぐらいの回復量

 

2D lasts for about a 5 count

SB Zio shock lasts for about 1.5 counts

JD is super fast so you can throw it out pretty easily

A Dia heals over the span of 2 Persona Cards regenning, B Dia heals over the span of 1 Persona Card regenning, SB Dia/A Dia heal about the same amount (or maybe they heal Persona Cards, but I doubt it. Why would Liz get stuff Margaret has XP)

 

覚醒Aブフ空ガ不あり

 

Awakened A Bufu is Air Unblockable

Edited January 16, 2015 by firedraco

[Dazardz]

"SB Mudoon is unblockable/does minimum 2k damage"

 

So there's a chance of unblockable setups? I'd love to see that!

[Luminos564]

Maybe it was just the video or my time away from Lizzie but did anyone else get the impression that 5B has a much faster "return" speed? She whiffed it in that vs. Adachi video and I swear it looked like it returned faster to me. She still got punished for it but it seem as bad as it is now.

 

Example I am talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMnvXIrxFH4#t=1080

[TastyPancakez]

So to some of the better Liz players here since I don't really understand lots of things, does Liz look stronger now? (She probably is but relative to the cast), or is it too early O_o

 

I mean she can get meterless 4K kind of easily now so her damage is definitely better, but her confirms with Garu and stuff looks a little sketchy :L

 

Thanatos pressure seems like it's actually a lot better now with 5D buffs and Bufu unblockable OMC stuff.

 

I think Liz might be more confusing with her HSM confirms and 2C stuff but I'm excited for 2.0 Liz :D

[TD]

I thinks she is definitely better at first glance despite the nerfs. Pretty much any combo air or ground seems to give her multiple options to end the combo at advantage, she can push to the corner a lot easier than she could have before and off of more stuff for less. Poison is more useful than ever before since it retains its damage value with a reduced time. 5c hsm buff, 2c stock buff greatly improve her meter less combos consistently. Meter less routes are a big blessing for her. Death spells changed, for better or worse has yet to be seen but they should be used more often at least.

Health buff, shuffle time getting more invul/startup, new diarahan, new flash kick debilitate makes defense less oppressive than any other Liz. Now meter can actually be used to escape more stuff. These changes Imo were biggest as they aid in her longevity, granting more chances to escape and possibly pressure or setup a >10 second Hama.

Aoa buff was also sweet, it looks about normal speed now and the combo after grants a knockdown (at least from the combo video I saw, may require meter and awakening).

Wherever she was on the tier list, probably at the very bottom, I am certain she is moving up at least a little.

[TD]

Maybe it was just the video or my time away from Lizzie but did anyone else get the impression that 5B has a much faster "return" speed? She whiffed it in that vs. Adachi video and I swear it looked like it returned faster to me. She still got punished for it but it seem as bad as it is now.

 

Example I am talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMnvXIrxFH4#t=1080

looks the same to me.

[TastyPancakez]

well according to damosu's tier list liz is still bottom

damn

[Elochai]

Aguro similarly thinks that Elizabeth is bottom tier in this version. I'm honestly not surprised since she's always been a weak character. The tier lists that I've seen so far for 2.0 just seem to put the consistent high damage characters at the top (which is the only reason I could think of for Damosu thinking S.Junpei is A).

 

For what it's worth though I still think that 2.0 Elizabeth > 1.1 Elizabeth. While it's still early, the case with 2.0 seems to be the same case with all the other versions. While Elizabeth got better, other characters didn't get weak enough for it to matter, or some other characters just got better. 

[TastyPancakez]

On the bright side I don't think the gap will be as large from lower to upper tiers. There are quite a few characters in D-Tier, Junpei's shadow equivalent is apparently at least mid tier, and Teddie just dived to the bottom. It seems like the high tiers are dominated by Shadows anyways, so in another instance it's possible the gap isn't huge.

I guess Damosu dropped Liz though which is unfortunate. Where is our Liz overlord? Labrys has Purepure and Junpei has Pet/Hina ;-;

[Elochai]

Damosu is still the #1 Elizabeth in arcades, so I'm sure he still plays her at least somewhat. If anything, I have faith in some of the other players like Hiyuki.

 

I'm not sure how the gap between tiers would be. I would think it's more or less the same as in 1.1. I don't really think there's too much to say without knowing the reasoning behind the tiers though. 

[RWA Announcer]

I've been feeling similarly to you guys about her prospects, but it's like I was telling R-Squared and a couple of other friends who were asking me about my thoughts on her, "Even if she's the absolute worst in the game, this version of her looks to be the most powerful, well-rounded incarnation of her, since they finally addressed a lot of her most glaring flaws, but with everyone else mostly going up, she'll likely still be behind the bell curve once again."  A shame about Damosu, but fortunately for me, he's playing Adachi, so I can still steal that tech!    That's interesting about S. Junpei and Teddie, but not really surprising considering how much footage I've seen of Hina and Pet scoring Home Runs on everybody, and glancing at Teddie's changes he seemed destined for destruction.   Didn't know we had tiers already though.  Would you mind listing them out, even though it's a bit off-topic, or should I just try to fire up Google Translate?

[TD]

I saw it somewhere, maybe in the p4 news thread and it was translated already, but I am not sure exactly if I even saw it there..

 

liz does indeed seem more balanced and at least tournament viable. in the first game at least she had massive damage to offset her problems but in p42, she didnt really have much of anything, while this one seems to be a happy medium between damage and utility. it looks like she finally has a gameplan now besides "hit them somehow" and "stall for some reason".

[firedraco]

I've been feeling similarly to you guys about her prospects, but it's like I was telling R-Squared and a couple of other friends who were asking me about my thoughts on her, "Even if she's the absolute worst in the game, this version of her looks to be the most powerful, well-rounded incarnation of her, since they finally addressed a lot of her most glaring flaws, but with everyone else mostly going up, she'll likely still be behind the bell curve once again."  A shame about Damosu, but fortunately for me, he's playing Adachi, so I can still steal that tech!    That's interesting about S. Junpei and Teddie, but not really surprising considering how much footage I've seen of Hina and Pet scoring Home Runs on everybody, and glancing at Teddie's changes he seemed destined for destruction.   Didn't know we had tiers already though.  Would you mind listing them out, even though it's a bit off-topic, or should I just try to fire up Google Translate?

 

Aguro's Tweet:

SS: Shadow Mitsuru, Shadow Chie, Mizazuki

S: Ken, Yu

A: Aigis, Labrys, Yukiko

B: Akihiko, Sho, Margaret

C: Yosuke, Kanji, Elizabeth, Teddie

 

For characters not listed above, I have no idea. As new people use the characters and come up with stuff, this list will change so take it with a grain of salt.

[OmnixTSC]

*cough*

 

With the apparent scarcity of some good Liz footage for 2.0, I was curious if anyone wanted me to start uploading/archiving more of my matches with her. It would be a good way for some of you to get ideas about approaching neutral and what to look for when you're on offense.

[TastyPancakez]

*cough*

 

With the apparent scarcity of some good Liz footage for 2.0, I was curious if anyone wanted me to start uploading/archiving more of my matches with her. It would be a good way for some of you to get ideas about approaching neutral and what to look for when you're on offense.

 

Yes please ;-;

[OmnixTSC]

Yes please ;-;

 

Will do, then. Expect some links within the next week.

 

Also, is there any reason for no one doing j.A > j.A > j.B (1) > j.D off air to airs? It leads to 2.4k and a safe jump.

[OmnixTSC]

I really wonder what goes through some of these Liz players' minds when they're choosing their options. Liz is not the type of character to be so wild with lol

[Speakeasy]

I know what's going through my mind, and it's usually nothing. :v

[TastyPancakez]

5C > 214A the future :v

I wonder if Mudo combos aren't so good? I mean that combo in the demonstration did like 5-6k iirc but you can get 4k for meterless. I imagine they might be able to optimize the combo but no one uses it lol, not even Hama which I think could have some use.

Also is Mudo's 2K fixed or is it just minimum

damage?

I imagine Dia isn't that useful either because of the really low heal. Maybe SB Dia will have some use in the future buuuut

[Speakeasy]

I haven't watched a lot of Liz 2.0 footage, but I'm hoping Dia can be used as a sort of last-ditch defensive option or something now. I haven't seen it used a single time so I don't know if it has any invul or anything like that, though.

[SupaFella0]

http://youtu.be/yibMDfWB3N0?t=5m44s

 

I know that is old news but it feels so nice seeing it in a video.

[Zephyrion22]

It sees we can still get confirms from randomizer/debilitate in Awakening despite its nerfs !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xt8smycbuA#t=431

[So-Called-Chaos]

YES! so happy that it's still possible, even if its just off the SB version only.

[TastyPancakez]

I liked that 685 PSR Liz in the recent videos that Elochai posted. Anyone know who it was?

[Zephyrion22]

I liked that 685 PSR Liz in the recent videos that Elochai posted. Anyone know who it was?

 

He/she is using the handle "Memento mori", I think I saw the same handle once on twice back in P4U2, can't say for sure it's the same person^^