[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[LightlordIV]

There's no estimated release date. We just have to wait, sadly.

 

Btw, I might start uploading some 1.1 Liz stuff for you guys to have more to work with. I added some more oki routes to things.

I'm quite saddened to hear this. 

More oki routes and new stuff? My interest has been picked~

[Elochai]

Pancakez mentioned the 800PSR Liz a page or two back, and there's finally footage of him. I marked his matches with an asterisk. He's a very strong player with good tech; I really suggest that you guys watch the matches to see some high level Liz.

One thing I noticed about his combo choices is that he goes for 2D>AoA>Wail. I never really considered how strong this option could be since we can now stock multiple 1HSM flags. Wail's usefulness might be back lol.

[Zephyrion22]

Pancakez mentioned the 800PSR Liz a page or two back, and there's finally footage of him. I marked his matches with an asterisk. He's a very strong player with good tech; I really suggest that you guys watch the matches to see some high level Liz.

One thing I noticed about his combo choices is that he goes for 2D>AoA>Wail. I never really considered how strong this option could be since we can now stock multiple 1HSM flags. Wail's usefulness might be back lol.

 

Not super important, but based on his handle and comments, the 800PSR Liz is named "Uma". Now I wonder if this guy/girl is actually Uma no Hone (Valkenhayn high level player, it's unlikely since their handle are completely different, but given how JP players like to play with their Nesica handle, I'd rather not discard the possibility too easily) or if it's a completely different person !

[TastyPancakez]

there are some more matches here with that new liz

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P0jwwR66B68

would post in the vid thread but can't mark time atm

[LightlordIV]

I don't know if you already know this but Atlus confirmed that 2.0 will not be used at EVO, which probably means we aren't going to have 2.0 until July ends.

...Why, Atlus? Just... WHY?

[Elochai]

The reasoning behind using 1.1 at EVO is so that all of the players are "on the same footing." In my opinion this could mean that 2.0 is just coming out in June/July or whatever and that ATLUS/whoever thinks that overseas players would not have enough time to get up to speed in 2.0. 

[LightlordIV]

Well, we would have lots of time to get used to the changes... If they did give us that patch by February, March or even April. Regardless of their reasoning, we are going to wait some more to finally test our new Liz by ourselves.

[TastyPancakez]

Just because this forum is getting pretty quiet...

Some 2.0 questions:

- Have you guys seen any notable usage of Mudoon in 2.0? I don't remember seeing any and the demonstration in the video provided to us spent a lot of meter doing only ~5 or 6k when you can get close to that with much less meter.

- At the time of when I'm writing this Damosu is no longer #1 on the leaderboards lol. (Not sure how long this will last since the #1 Liz dropped from around 800 to like 770 before)

- How do you think we should be using 2C next version? I don't see lots of Lizzies deliberately building up stock and letting it just flow into their regular gameplan.

...Now some 1.1 questions

- Should I be using Thanatos OMC more? I rarely do it and it seems like whenever I do it doesn't seem to land. I rarely see Damosu do it as well.

- When are good chances I should be looking for to throw out a Randomizer? I can get it occasionally on wake-up but I either whiff the input or the enemy doesn't get a hit on it.

Also a general question about safejumps, but what exactly should I do after I use it? If I move back to block and they don't DP, I feel like I lose some pressure since they seem to back out or attack back. I understand how to use them and what they function but I don't know what I should be looking for when I commit to one

[Elochai]

I don't think that Mudoon will be relevant in this version. Maybe you can do cool combos and stuff but that would be it. Hama has some other uses thanks to the fact that it goes off immediately now; you can use it as combo filler and kinda timer scam with it. I hope I'm proven wrong though, and that someone finds some use for Mudoon.

Damosu is below the #1 Liz by 1 PSR but I'm not even sure if he's still picking Liz. Wouldn't surprise me if he stuck to Adachi but I wouldn't mind either way because there are other strong Liz players now. They aren't at Damosu's level but they're better than the mid level players that we were seeing beside Damosu in 1.0/1.1. The 3rd ranked (iirc) player had a lot of cool tech like 2x 2D routes and I wouldn't mind seeing more of him.

2C use is an interesting question and I'm not really too sure about it myself. It still seems like a grey area. I've only seen a player or 2 try to stock a bunch of 1HSM flags but it really seemed inconsequential. If the only thing that we're getting is extra damage on certain attacks then it might not be worth it to have more than 2-3 stocks on hand at a time. You could probably gear your combos around stocks now too since garu/zio got buffed. I'm actually curious if 1HSM 5C is faster or if the afterimage is simply there for aesthetics only.

OMC pressure is kinda bad imo and you should only use it if you're looking to punish the other player for specific things. 5C OMC 5C blows up mashing (and Akihiko parry OS iirc) for example. Just use your best discretion. 50 meter can be an expensive cost for the reward, though.

Randomizer sucks and I wouldn't really recommend using it unless you're making a really hard read or something. I like to use it vs some characters though, like if a Margaret tries to do j22C from fullscreen or something, then I would try to use Randomizer.

I think I'm either misunderstanding you or you're using the safejump incorrectly. You're supposed to hold back as you're falling. It seems like you're taking a step or two backwards after you land which is why you're losing your advantage.

[Speakeasy]

I only use OMC Thanatos stuff if the next hit is guaranteed to kill and I have at least 100 meter so I don't give up all of my resources if it doesn't land. Typically if they somehow wind up fullscreen with Thanatos on top of them, since anything that happens there isn't going to get me killed.

I also never use Randomizer. :v I'm not confident enough to deliberately do a charge forward input and the few times I have gotten it have been when I did something stupid on defense while being crossed up. I also wouldn't use it at round start more than once in a blue moon either, since it can be baited by the opponent waiting for a couple frames to see if you throw it out. I'm sure there are times to use it, but I'm not confident enough to learn them and start putting them into practice without a better input for it.

I'm not super clear on the exact workings of Liz's safejump, but the general idea is that you get pressure if they didn't DP. If you land a fear safejump as Liz, you get 5A/2A/throw mixup and they can't fuzzy jump out of it. Which is fantastic, let me tell you. Other than that, I can tell you nothing.

I don't watch any 2.0 stuff at this point, so I can't say anything there. :v I hope in was able tk help somewhat.

[firedraco]

Just because this forum is getting pretty quiet...

Some 2.0 questions:

- Have you guys seen any notable usage of Mudoon in 2.0? I don't remember seeing any and the demonstration in the video provided to us spent a lot of meter doing only ~5 or 6k when you can get close to that with much less meter.

- At the time of when I'm writing this Damosu is no longer #1 on the leaderboards lol. (Not sure how long this will last since the #1 Liz dropped from around 800 to like 770 before)

- How do you think we should be using 2C next version? I don't see lots of Lizzies deliberately building up stock and letting it just flow into their regular gameplan.

...Now some 1.1 questions

- Should I be using Thanatos OMC more? I rarely do it and it seems like whenever I do it doesn't seem to land. I rarely see Damosu do it as well.

- When are good chances I should be looking for to throw out a Randomizer? I can get it occasionally on wake-up but I either whiff the input or the enemy doesn't get a hit on it.

Also a general question about safejumps, but what exactly should I do after I use it? If I move back to block and they don't DP, I feel like I lose some pressure since they seem to back out or attack back. I understand how to use them and what they function but I don't know what I should be looking for when I commit to one

 

1) Nope. Seems useless, since as was said, you can get 6k off less meter anyway.

2) It's not super useful to that IMO, since 5C takes 2 stocks (although I did notice that the 5C buff affects each slash seperately, so having 2 2C buffs then doing a 5C does more damage than having 1 2C buff and doing 5C). I've seen some combos that need 3 or so and do good damage but more than that just seems to force to spam 2C'd 5C and eat the SMP penalty.

3) I really only use it for 2C > 5C pressure, but now that 5C will launch them it seems to whiff unlike in the P4A...

4) Only on wakeup and round start tbh...you could use it to hard bait DPs or in some weird situations like anti-reversal baiting but it's still kind of bad.

5) You should be getting pressure on a safejump because if they try to do anything other then block you should hit them and pressure/combo, or if they DP you should land and block it (except for Yosuke's BS DP lol)

[Elochai]

So Setora is on Twitter talking about Liz tech and Google translate isn't really handling it well. Would someone care to translate? It's something about throw & SB Mudo I think.

エリザベス：

端投げscコンセ→で？omcでよくない？？？中央なら一部位置で拾える

端投げscハマ→補正糞重いけど一応拾えるので中央なら無くはない

端投げscディア→で？

端投げsc亡者→おう

端投げscムド→はい

[firedraco]

So Setora is on Twitter talking about Liz tech and Google translate isn't really handling it well. Would someone care to translate? It's something about throw & SB Mudo I think.

エリザベス：

端投げscコンセ→で？omcでよくない？？？中央なら一部位置で拾える

端投げscハマ→補正糞重いけど一応拾えるので中央なら無くはない

端投げscディア→で？

端投げsc亡者→おう

端投げscムド→はい

1) Corner throw > Mind Charge to something? One more cancel is bad??? At mid screen I might be able to find something (*not sure on this)

2) Corner throw > Hamaon has bad proration but it seems like it's all you can do midscreen

3) Corner throw > Diarahan to something?

4) Corner throw > Ghastly Wail > Wha?

5) Corner throw > Mamudoon -> Yes

[TastyPancakez]

^ Is he saying you may be able to combo off of Dia or midcombo?

I don't really get what he's saying lol (the last three)

[Elochai]

I think he's musing whether or not you can combo off of Dia. I'm pretty sure I've seen Dia midcombo before. He might also be saying that throw gives you enough time to get off a full Dia maybe.

I cant really see how throw mudo would work. Does Mudo go off instantly like Hama? That's the only way I can imagine it working.

I'm also confused about throw into ghastly wail unless he just means that wail would be the combo ender and not the next move in the combo.

[TastyPancakez]

^ It definitely doesn't go off instantly. Maybe he's talking about using pressure/blockstrings/whatever and forcing Mudo to land since it's unblockable but I don't know if the move is fast enough for that (in other words the enemy probably can recover in time to punish you or at least force you to block). Ideally it would also be SB I think.

Unless you can actually combo Mudo off of a Throw and I don't really see how

[firedraco]

I'm almost 100% sure he is meaning to pressure after Mudo since its unblockable.

 

But yeah, I didn't think it was fast enough for that but maybe I'm wrong.

[Zephyrion22]

I honestly think that there are applications to SB Mudoon, although it's probably very situational : remember it now has Hamaon's old startup and activation time and doesn't disappear on block, so I'm pretty sure you can get a knockdown right before it activates and get a guaranteed setup. Then again Hamaon practical combos weren't a thing for a while on first version so I'm keeping (probably unreasonable) hopes for this super in the next one ! If Setora mentioned Mudo having an actual application, so I'm eager to hear some other things from him ! We'll have to see if there are any benefits landing it this way though, as I don't even know  the damage and scaling for this super when done raw (I only know it wallsplats and deal 2k mid-combo, so you can probably get one hit or two from it when done raw)

[Kettlin]

Anyone give me an idea what to do after a D version Maragidyne when blocked by the opponent? Or maybe near the end of a combo. I'm stumped

[Elochai]

Generally, you can just sweep for knockdown if D Agi is towards the end of your combo. There aren't many options unless D Agi is one of the first moves in the combo.

As for the opponent blocking Agi, you simply get pressure or a mixup. You can do stagger pressure, a crossup, or an IOH with 2B omc for example. You have a lot of freedom to do whatever you want in this regard.

[TastyPancakez]

that's d agi btw i wouldn't use sb agi

[skyler1173]

I usually do 5a, 2a, 5a, 5d if they block agi. Thats probably not the best option but i like it.

[Zephyrion22]

 non Awakened D Agi lets you do various things as Elochai said, I'll just elaborate for it to be clearer. Here are the commonly used things

 

-5A/2A staggers into throw/persona pressure, not recommended but it still works sometimes

-jump + jA/2A or airdash j.A x N. airdash mixups and 2A often leave a hole for them to DP , but j.A is safe so use the threat of the j.A and then attempt other mixups

- jump>airturn> instant air backdash> airturn j.A/2.A : A lot harder but tighter, you can get a cross-up by  delaying your airdash, in which case you just skip the second air turn

-5A>jump> airturn> instant air backdash j.A. Another cross-up. Riskier, but still allows you to keeps thing fresh when used with 5A/2A stagger pressure. Use with caution as it loses badly to fuzzy jump/throw OS

-2B OMC>j.A/2A : Liz's good old 50/50 : Costly but very efficient

 

Probably other options I don't know of, but those should already keep your opponent busy !

[ZodiarkSavior]

^ It definitely doesn't go off instantly. Maybe he's talking about using pressure/blockstrings/whatever and forcing Mudo to land since it's unblockable but I don't know if the move is fast enough for that (in other words the enemy probably can recover in time to punish you or at least force you to block). Ideally it would also be SB I think.

Unless you can actually combo Mudo off of a Throw and I don't really see how

 

 

SB Mudo into knock-down. 

[TastyPancakez]

I think that's when SB Mudo hits... Throw > Mudo should have throw's recovery