[P4AU] Sho Minazuki - Gameplay Discussion (Discuss Gameplay, Videos, Combos, etc.)

[RurouniLoneWolf]

Yeah, I'm actually really surprised by this list. Sure, 5A got nerf but I think there was no helping that. Max range staggered 5As seemed too good with your opponent in the corner. But the rest of the changes look pretty solid. I'm not sure if I'm reading it right but it seems like you can cancel into 5D or jD from the listed specials by inputting 2D? If so, that would be really interesting. I think it has the potential to bring his mixup and pressure to another level in the right hands. Need to wait and see how much it got reduced but jD landing recovery being reduced is a godsend. There was just way too much before for it to be useful without an OMC. 

 

All in all, pretty good changes. 

[RWA Announcer]

That's what it sounds like Ruroni, which could lead to some really interesting things.  I suppose this was done to put some gaps in his pressure, since both he and MINAZUKI had some fantastic jabs?  I know we don't have the new value, which is a shame, but has anybody seen the mook to know what his original jab recovery was?

[Falco252]

If 2D cancel brings air dodge mixups a la melty it sounds fun \o/

 

5A recovery was 9 frames recovery, +1 on block, (and 9f startup), sorry I thought I had updated Sho's wiki, I didn't, will do that tomorrow I think.

But yeah 5A nerf was a given, 5A stagger was stupid.

 

 

Soaring Fang is the move where he advances forward and jump slash upwards and was plus on block right ? What does the invul change means ? Did it not make sense or it was just too strong? If I have the good move it was 4-11 full invul fyi

[RurouniLoneWolf]

Hard to say for sure without seeing the data on the other versions of Soaring Fang but if it's the move I'm thinking of, I think one of the better uses for the SB version was using it after his High Speed Movement for a nice crossup mixup. I never knew it had invuln until now though. That would mean it was also probably punishing people looking to punish the recovery of High Speed Movement. Maybe ASW pushed the invuln back to make it more vulnerable to mashing if people guessed right early enough. 

[Falco252]

Ah so it'd be his fastfall?

[RurouniLoneWolf]

Ah so it'd be his fastfall?

 

His fastfall is High Speed Movement when done in the air. But sometimes, Sho's like to use Soaring Fang right after it like here

[Falco252]

His fastfall is High Speed Movement when done in the air. But sometimes, Sho's like to use Soaring Fang right after it like here

Ah alright, so it was the move I thought about in the first place, so yeah it's 4-11 full invul if I'm correct (can't check with AIME website's movelist because it's in maintenance right now), making it invul later would make more sense if it is. (It wasn't a reversal anyway so yeah)

[RWA Announcer]

Even though I've watched a TON of videos of both Shos, I'm still not really sure what all of his moves look like, but it sounds like the one you're thinking of Falco.  Had no idea his jabs were THAT stupid though.  It visually looked silly, but that was just crazy good.  As a Liz main I'll appreciate that.  Glad to hear that is Wiki page is going to be getting updated.  Sho and MINAZUKI both really interest me, so it'll be nice to have some info to go with my video watching for theory crafting until the game comes out.

[Mooglebane]

Anyone else think that Sho will end up better than Minazuki in the long run? Sho's mixup looks way better to me. I'm probably in the minority though, since Sho isn't played nearly as much as 'Zuki.

[Myoro]

I think No-sho-na is stronger than Per-SHO-Na honestly.

 

Put simply Minazuki looks gimmicky and easy to react to after one ore two matches, and my main man Sho is a complete baller with ambiguous neutral, combos and mix-ups.

[RurouniLoneWolf]

I think more people play Minazuki than Sho mostly because he has a better set of tools for playing neutral and a lot of people like having this. Also, who can escape the irresitable lure of the teleport swag?! :P

 

In terms of their strength, they feel about equal with maybe Minazuki having a slight edge. Whether Sho can surpass Minazuki in the long run is a tricky question, for me at least. On the one hand, I want to say Sho has the potential to pull ahead of Minazuki because dealing with a character that excels in pressure can be tough for a lot of people. But on the other hand, the more I watch Sho, the more I feel that for other characters, winning the matchup against Sho just by dominating the neutral game might be very doable. Or at least, those are my current thoughts on the matter. 

[Synyster17]

 

I think more people play Minazuki than Sho mostly because he has a better set of tools for playing neutral and a lot of people like having this. Also, who can escape the irresitable lure of the teleport swag?! :P

 

In terms of their strength, they feel about equal with maybe Minazuki having a slight edge. Whether Sho can surpass Minazuki in the long run is a tricky question, for me at least. On the one hand, I want to say Sho has the potential to pull ahead of Minazuki because dealing with a character that excels in pressure can be tough for a lot of people. But on the other hand, the more I watch Sho, the more I feel that for other characters, winning the matchup against Sho just by dominating the neutral game might be very doable. Or at least, those are my current thoughts on the matter. 

 

 

i actually think the opposite. i think sho is better cause of his pressure and there is no real training mode yet and both of them are fairly new. but who knows really. i will try both and play which one i like. and that teleport can get 2b all day most of the time if you have the reactions for it, which most people do cause the 40 frame start up. also mu's could be different. also another thing i like about sho is his persona, aka he has none so it cant be broken and has no matter what he always has his burst and more normals cause of the heavy button. his high speed movement (whatever it's called) and his ability to become some what invulnerable makes him a strong addition to the persona game.

 

not to mention this is only my opinion on the  character and don't judge it.

 

also is there any where i could get my hands on some accurate frame data or something. last time i checked the English wiki there was nothing. maybe the jp wiki. is there a link or something. thanks in advance.

[Mooglebane]

I think No-sho-na is stronger than Per-SHO-Na honestly.

 

Put simply Minazuki looks gimmicky and easy to react to after one ore two matches, and my main man Sho is a complete baller with ambiguous neutral, combos and mix-ups.

 

See, this is exactly what I mean. You can 2B Minazuki's teleport if you're looking out for it, the startup is kinda obvious. His Persona moves don't really give him any real pressure in neutral, he can poke from range with his Persona, especially after knives, but that's about it. They feel more like combo fodder to me. In my opinion, the only tool Minazuki has over Sho against non-zoners is the command grab.

 

Sho looks more harder to read and react to with all the (SB) cross-up tele nonsense, while still having the same good normals and specials that Minazuki has (5A, 2A, knives, Destruction, etc.). But yeah, just my two cents, might end up horribly wrong on the matter.

[Zephyrion22]

See, this is exactly what I mean. You can 2B Minazuki's teleport if you're looking out for it, the startup is kinda obvious.

 

The teleport and persona attacks are harder to deal with than you might think, mainly because it can shut down jumps from anywhere on the screen, it can be 2Bed if used recklessly, but most of the good  P.Sho's won't use it if you aren't in the air or busy doing something else..

 

I really prefer Pless Sho though, and him being better than Sho might be the truth if we look at arcade PSR rankings (always taking this with a grain of salt of course). Really hope to see more of him in the future

[RurouniLoneWolf]

 

 

 and that teleport can get 2b all day most of the time if you have the reactions for it

 

also is there any where i could get my hands on some accurate frame data or something. last time i checked the English wiki there was nothing. maybe the jp wiki. is there a link or something. thanks in advance.

 

hmmm, I've been reading this a lot recently about Minazuki and after watching Minazuki footage for the last 6ish months, I have to say that this isn't really an issue. Spoiler tagging this since this ended up kind of long. 

 

Zephyrion22 already touched on this already but I thought I'd cover it anyway. React 2Bing his teleport is very doable if you completely ignore the rest of his neutral game as well as your own neutral game but becomes pretty unrealistic when you start factoring in everything else. React 2Bing will certainly work against weaker Minazuki players who rely too much on both the teleport and the persona normals but strong Minazuki players, like DIE-chan, will be spending most of their time playing neutral by playing footsies with the great normals that both Sho and Minazuki have in common. This makes it much harder to react to the teleport because a lot of the time you'll need to be worrying about playing footsies, first and foremost. If you try to react 2B the teleport by playing passively, then you'll be able to react 2B the teleport on the rare occassions that they use it but most ofthe time you pretty much end up letting Minazuki get in for free when he plays footsies instead. 

 

If you try to react 2B the teleport while playing normally, then it becomes difficult to react to the teleport. I'm sure a lot of people are thinking that 40 frames is a lot of time to react because you're already reacting to 24ish frame overheads during pressure. But that's very different. You have 2 very distinct advantages in these cases: 1) The fact that you really don't need to focus on anything but blocking during this time and 2) A lot of your opponent's options are beaten by just passively downbacking. Without these two advantages, you're ability to quickly react to things will definitely take a very noticeable hit. There's also the fact that you might not really be in a position to 2B to begin with as well. 

 

Also, concerning Persona breaks, this one is harder to tell why this isn't really an issue but I have my theories from watching strong Minazukis play. My leading theory is that there's some risk involved in attempting to punish the persona because the C persona attacks can be cancelled into the other C persona attack once, into D attacks and specials and D attacks can cancel into specials. For cancelling into other persona normals, this one is more iffy in my mind because I don't really see it a lot. But right now in my mind, it is theoretically possible to end up punishing punishes by cancelling into other persona normals to play with Tsukiyomi's up, down, left and right positioning relative to the opponent. But agian, very iffy on this one.  

 

For specials, Minazuki can cancel into teleport or his survival knife on the ground and just the teleport in the air. If you try to jab the persona and he teleports, then you might get hit out of the recovery of the jab. If you try to jab the persona and he throws his slow survival knife, there's no immediate risk but when you recover from your jab, you're going to have to deal with that approaching knife and all the options that Minazuki has from it. In pressure, there doesn't really seem to be much risk for the persona because he can cancel into Flash Fang as well.

 

Closing note, I may or may not explained this all in an actual understandable manner, which is why I instead recommend watching lots of footage of good Minazuki players like DIE-chan to see what I mean about react 2Bing his teleport and punishing his persona.

 

The Dustloop wiki has been updated recently and pretty much has all the data now by the way. 

 

See, this is exactly what I mean. You can 2B Minazuki's teleport if you're looking out for it, the startup is kinda obvious. His Persona moves don't really give him any real pressure in neutral, he can poke from range with his Persona, especially after knives, but that's about it. They feel more like combo fodder to me. In my opinion, the only tool Minazuki has over Sho against non-zoners is the command grab.

 

Sho looks more harder to read and react to with all the (SB) cross-up tele nonsense, while still having the same good normals and specials that Minazuki has (5A, 2A, knives, Destruction, etc.). But yeah, just my two cents, might end up horribly wrong on the matter.

 

Depends. If you get hit by his Ds that launch you, he can combo into his teleport and he'll get both the combo and then pressure afterwards. The rest of his persona normals are iffy and may have spacing and CH requirements for comboing. But even if the persona attack doesn't lead into anything on hit, they still do a noteworthy amount of damage every time you get hit, making it undesirable to get him by them. On block, they don't lead to anything but to block them requires playing in a more passive manner and playing passively is what Minazuki players want because it makes it even easier for them to play footsies.

[Mooglebane]

Stuff.

 

All good points, yeah. At this point in my eyes it just seems that Sho is more dangerous, could be because he isn't played as much as Minazuki is. I usually see Minazuki's Persona attacks blocked easily, no one seems to take any cards though when doing that. I guess they fear the possible tele/knife followup. Having Tsukuyomi adds much more "presence" to 'Zuki compared to just knives though.

[Guymam]

P.Sho has better damage and his persona normals are decent, along with a +3 or 4 teleport slash along with all of his other good normals. Sho has the teleport mixups, better use of 25 meter with ex helm breaker and ex grand viper. They both have pros and cons.

 

The difference is that P.Sho is a bully while Sho is a shithead. P.Sho bullies people with his normals and jump cancelable B normals, and the threat of grab and command grab to get them to make a wrong defensive move. Coupled with fullscreen persona harrasment, chasing knife, and his fantastic normals in neutral, he excels at harassing people and getting hits. When he does hit you, especially with meter, it hurts. There's nothing "gimmicky" about him.

 

Sho's damage is slightly lower, and he has a harder time using super midscreen. Most of his meter goes towards his ex moves. Teleport left rights don't lead into crazy damage but they lead into some decent damage. He lacks full screen stuff, but he can make his way in and do a less damage using better mixup.

 

As far as better or worse, they're both pretty much right next to each other would be my guess. A to A+?

[Mooglebane]

Things.

 

Good post. I definitely agree with the shithead and bully analogy. The differing super usage is an important factor, as Minazuki gets easier/better damage midscreen with it like you said. Nothing to really add here, you pretty much nailed it.

[RurouniLoneWolf]

lol @ that analogy. It was great. Thanks for once again giving us detailed impressions, Guymam. I very much appreciate it.

[Skye]

I'll be attending EVO and I plan on picking both Sho's, any requests?

[Myoro]

I'll be attending EVO and I plan on picking both Sho's, any requests?

Win!

 

Besides that seeing Non Persona Sho's Instant kill would be pretty cool, if you feel comfortable pulling it off.

 

Best of luck!

[Mooglebane]

I'll be attending EVO and I plan on picking both Sho's, any requests?

 

Liberal use of left/right (SB) shenanigans with Sho pls. And as Myoro said, if you feel like throwing the round, try Sho's IK. Good luck!

[Guymam]

Sho doesn't have an IK. I mean unless they added one for him.

[Mooglebane]

Sho doesn't have an IK. I mean unless they added one for him.

 

Ohhh. Damn, never noticed that.

[Myoro]

Sho doesn't have an IK. I mean unless they added one for him.

Is that so? No one ever uses IKs anyway so I wouldn't know just by watching footage.