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Setsuna

[P4AU] Labrys Gameplay Discussion

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While these things indeed sound like steps into the right direction, it isn't really fixing any of the issues Labrys has. I'd consider her pretty much P4U status which wasn't good in the first place either. There are also more bad MUs for her to take care of in P4U2 which made her end up doing worse in the first place.

 

Having Green Axe at match start back might potentially mean that, in combination with the FC property on Chain Knuckle, we'll have meterless Green to Red Axe combos now. The Hojuu buff might prove useful depending on how it actually works. Gears, even with its frame 1 invulnerability back, still is a pretty bad reversal super.

 

I'm hoping for more phantom changes (Arcsys is known for that anyway) but I wouldn't count on it.

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With the changes to shadow characters in 1.1 Shadow R.Labrys might be more viable than her regular version. Shadow characters now have access to their awakening supers outside of berserk mode and they're getting an all over health buff. Only thing that's lacking is the ability to burst. But SR Labrys having a steady amount of meter will help her confirm into 25 sp green to red axe combos. Plus she possibly has some really strong berserk combos. She'll also have her old 5AAA string back. Which gives her back 5AA > dash pressure stuff again. 5AAA > AoA corner oki will also be possible again. And with D/SB Houjuu that route might be even stronger. 

 

If Strife's calculations in the general thread are right, SR Labrys should have about 11k+ health. If they're going off the difference in health that each character gains once they enter the earliest possible awakening.

 

But the biggest thing imo is the fact that the shadow characters can now use awakening skills at any time with just 50 SP. Reversal Gears can be used whenever and is one of the best reversals in the game given its huge hitbox and the fact is leaves Labrys extremely plus if you so much as make any contact with it. Most characters have to commit in specific ways during pressure to make it whiff/fail. Gears on their wakeup when the match is about to end is choice too.. And will limit a lot of options while leaving you very plus. Imagine shadow berserk > Gears > RC > 3+ mixup chances at rounds end, holy shit. Also IB > Brutal Impact is scary as shit since it freezes the screen if anything makes contact with her. And remember the guard point is on frame 1. But it doesn't seem to work the same way as Jin or Hakumens Yukikaze. While the super flash happens immediately she doesn't actually swing the axe until a couple frames later. Some some characters can cancel what they're doing into DP to have Brutal whiff. But Im sure not all characters will be able to avoid it. Gears will most likely be the safer one to go with to get out of pressure. Going to have to test a lot when the game drops. The change also helps with it's comboablity. Brutal was always hard to combo into before because you needed to be in awakening, yellow/red axe, and needed 75+ sp. Now you just need yellow/red axe and 75+ sp. And those two resources are easy to have if you on the momentum end of things. 

 

Now you just have to ask yourself is all of that worth the lost of your burst. Taking all this into consideration actually has me wanting to get the game now.

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S.Labrys has the same frame data on her 5AA/5AAA as P4U Labrys.

5AAA>AOA>22x oki isn't possible for S.Labrys. (AOA has less untech time this version)

The opponent can tech way before they hit ground now.(I'll post the video showing this later)

Brutal impact as a defensive super is bad. It takes 30F for A version to hit you once you hit her. 37F B/SB version.

You can go watch the 1st set of Purepure matches in the video thread where he tries to use brutal impact as a counter super.

The kanji player just special cancels his 5AAA series into DP before brutal impact can hit him.

Brutal impact isn't omc and has long recovery. Purepure still gets punished anyway.

SB Mojuu has 25F start-up giving it less optimal combo options than P4U C mojuu which was 17F.

She also loses 20% damage on her combos which is pretty big.

Carrying over her current SP gauge/Axe gauge(each round) with 11500 HP is nice.

Not having a burst is pretty big since you still need 50 meter to use gears.

You also lose access to green to red axe and blue to red axe omb bnbs also.

There's blue to red axe shadow berserk bnbs in the corner but those cost all your resources for only 5k.

You start at gray axe next round without any meter.

I don't see her being a lot better than regular Labrys if she does end up being better overall.

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S.Labrys has the same frame data on her 5AA/5AAA as P4U Labrys.

5AAA>AOA>22x oki isn't possible for S.Labrys. (AOA has less untech time this version)

The opponent can tech way before they hit ground now.(I'll post the video showing this later)

Brutal impact as a defensive super is bad. It takes 30F for A version to hit you once you hit her. 37F B/SB version.

You can go watch the 1st set of Purepure matches in the video thread where he tries to use brutal impact as a counter super.

The kanji player just special cancels his 5AAA series into DP before brutal impact can hit him.

Brutal impact isn't omc and has long recovery. Purepure still gets punished anyway.

SB Mojuu has 25F start-up giving it less optimal combo options than P4U C mojuu which was 17F.

She also loses 20% damage on her combos which is pretty big.

Carrying over her current SP gauge/Axe gauge(each round) with 11500 HP is nice.

Not having a burst is pretty big since you still need 50 meter to use gears.

You also lose access to green to red axe and blue to red axe omb bnbs also.

There's blue to red axe shadow berserk bnbs in the corner but those cost all your resources for only 5k.

You start at gray axe next round without any meter.

I don't see her being a lot better than regular Labrys if she does end up being better overall.

 

So she can't even get oki from AoA anymore either, wow.

 

I edited my post about Brutal as a reversal because I forgot about the video you mentioned, watched it months ago. Tbh I never was really fond with the idea of using burst just to get your axe to red. When it's never really guaranteed you'll keep your momentum. I'd rather use 25/50 meter to build axe level over my burst. In 1.1 she has match start green axe again so she'll just need 25 meter to go from green to red. And even if shadow berserk is used nothing is really telling you it's mandatory to end in Moujuu to use up your red axe. You can always end j.214B into regular or SB Gears to grant yourself oki. 

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A good of chunk cast can just wake-up super gears oki after an air bnb.

For example:

Narukami can cross slash her or Ziodyne her.

Chie can god hand her.

Teddie can DP out of it.

Labrys can use her own Mojuu against it.

 

Outside of shadow berserk mode, spending 100 meter just to RC gears for a mix-up isn't good.

Even if you open your opponent up during gears from a omc mix-up, you'll only be able to do around 2k meterless even in red axe with the damage nerf.

At this point you don't have any meter left.

 

Edit: A lot of the cast can DP her on wake up if you try to use gears super as oki.

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EDIT: Also, it feels like although you start with green axe, you're still gravitating to blue. Maybe it's just my imagination. 

The first of the two PurePure vs Koishi videos confirms this. At around the 28:00 mark, I think, you can clearly see the axe level go from green to blue during j.C.

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Ugh, I was afraid of that. It's not too big a deal for me but still, it would have been nice to have go back to gravitating to green. 
 
Anyway, that was a delicious 2 hours of Purepure footage. Almost makes up for the lack of Labrys footage these last few months. Some thoughts
 
- New D Hojuu trajectory is pretty good. It being slow to get going led to some interesting applications. Purepure was using it a lot as a sort of way to reset pressure by ending a combo with it and waiting for it to arrive near the end of his blockstring. Looks like he still needs to experiment with it more though since there were quite a few times where if he opened up Koishi beforehand, Hojuu would ruin his combo. There was also some interesting moments in neutral where he was alternating between the C and D version to keep Koishi on his toes. 
 
- I'm glad to see Purepure was thoroughly enjoying the return of 1f invuln Gears ^,^
 
- um, not really sure what's going on here. It happened a few times during the set. Feels like he's doing it for chip damage and maybe building a bit of axe level but I can't really be sure.

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Also, both versions of Houjuu can be out at the same time. Not sure if this can apply to the SB version (hell, it wasn't even used at all in those matches, let alone in conjunction with the C or D version) and the utility is probably limited, but it might be something to keep in mind.

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oh yeah, you're right. That did happen. That's pretty nifty. It'll be tricky to find time to get both of them out but it could be useful in some cases. 

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I noticed 2 things while watching the Purepure vs Koishi footage:

 

1. D Hojuu destroyed Sho's knifes. Maybe it can nullify other projectiles as well? Gotta need to test that once we have the game.

2. Either Koishi overrespected Labrys' pressure a lot or Sho doesn't have good/no means of escaping it. I remember seeing 2A Stagger pressure work against him. Again, this will need testing.

 

Finally seeing the exact trajectory of D Hojuu gave me some ideas for applying it on oki setups. How viable these will be is to be questioned, though.

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Koishi kinda did over respect Purepure but mostly because Purepure overly tried to bait the DP so he probably had it in his head that he'd get bodied

So yeah cool stuff I saw

1: 236C/D can both be out at once(and multiples of the same one), looks like you can cancel into another one immediately once the other is let loose, kinda cool but the orb still goes whatever direction Ariadne is facing regardless of you using it again if you crossed up. Need to see CD version!

2: 5A5AA5B2AB 236D oki is hella possible though Purepure never really took advantage of the fact the orb was coming for added blockstun, he could have attempted to crossup, roll, high/low etc. as mixup but he rarely went for it. It looks like the dash cancel on 236D doesn't give you enough time to meaty 5A? but it kinda looked like he made it in time, gotta watch again.

3. 5AAA looks like an actual blockstring now, Purepure went ham with it. not a big deal but I kinda of like the idea of a safeblock string into RC shenanigans since 5AAA puts you airborne

actually still need to watch the 2nd hour and will update if I see anything else worth noting.


 

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EVO impressions:

  • j.2b is too much fun not to use.
  • 5b forward dash cancel at lower axe levels felt unsafe against characters with a fast 5a. Maybe it was just bad timing on my part.
  • The start up time on the bubble special makes it kind of impractical to use in neutral.
  • S-Hold system seems really easy to bait and once it's fully charged there didn't seem to be a way to stop it except by using another button first. You don't seem to be able to use shortcuts that use A as an input, like dashing, while charging the S-Hold, so it limits your options. Pressing the Dash shortcut lead to Labrys doing a 5c while the S-Hold was charged.
  • Having D and SB gears super is really nice, it lets you punish players full screen.
  • I had a hard time against Rise in neutral, a lot of her blockstrings seemed safe and her zoning can be kind of annoying to get past. Kinda reminds me of fighting a good Elizebeth.
  • I didn't have many issues against the Kens that I played, his 2b is good at anti-airing jump in attempts, but he doesn't have much mix up potential on the ground. Labry's B chain knuckle has a further reach than Ken's spear pull and can be used to punish it at near full screen. Though Koromaru can be used to block the chain knuckle if the Ken activates him.

 

I also confirmed that this glitch with the D Beast super still exists on the EVO p4u2 build.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chIf9Rm77Qs

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Gonna make a compilation on all my thoughts on P4AU Labrys.

Most of them are good actually.

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All my thoughts:
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s447/sh/3e8ffab4-2b95-4483-9e5f-fb3c6a0d201c/68347c6738d8bf6f7f89260662b64ad0

 

Organized better here:
 

Important notes
-S-type Labrys is ass
-Don't use her
-P3P FeMC color best color

 

New Tools
5AA>5B/2B/Sweep: Crouch confirming is bullshit easy.

Auto Combo: Fairly certain it's a legit blockstring all the way through. A bit tougher to pick up off AA 5A cause of the lower 5AA hitbox but shouldn't cause -too- many issues. Should require slight timing adjustment.

5B dash/backdash: No one has punished the forward dash but it is pretty minus so you should be careful using it unless you held 5B. 5AA>5B>backdash puts her -hella- far back, just at 5C range.

2C Dash: Only forward dash possibility hurts it a bit, but being 0 on block doesn't hurt. Good for combos, okay for pressure, better if you expect them to not block.

Chain Knuckle brake jump cancel: I like it for pressure and sticking at your own distance. Can go for jump in pressure or just back up. Pulling herself in with no followup is projectile invuln so it might be good for certain matchups (gonna try to see if it beats Naoto traps when P4AU drops).

236C/D bubble (Hojuu): Actually a lot better than people thought for neutral if you can get yourself space. Huge possibility for mindgames, if the bubble's out Labrys wins neutral free. Functions like arrow where if the bubble's out already and Ariadne is popped the bubble stays. Eats other projectiles up. Only use the C version unless you're fighting a character that's in the air a lot. D version is super based.

Brutal Impact counter followup: It's not so good. Beats throws free. Most basic meaties body it though cause they can just jump cancel. Think Hakumen Yukikaze if it's hit by a projectile. Except punishable.

j2B: Really nice. I like it. Works for combo proration, slightly better than j.B. Also requires it's own 2 input, won't come out on accident.

SB Arrow: Used it once, immediately regretted it. Don't use it.

SB Bull: Too slow to use in practical combos so far.

SB Gears: Based. Gets her in full screen. Opponents either in the air or without meter seem to be unable to punish safely. Functions like Yukiko Maragidyne where it starts in front of her and then spreads full screen, except -all- the gears stay. Covers full screen length in front of her, no part behind her so ill-advised midscreen. Chip damage is somewhere around 1-1.5k if I'm estimating correctly.

D Gears: Instead of covering the half of the screen in front of her, it covers the opposite half of the screen. Possible tool for full screen whiff punish. Possible full screen Agneyastra punish. Lets her in full screen on block, but still pretty vulnerable. Really good for feeling yourself. (Quick theory: Blue burst into Awakening>D Gears setup?)

 

Changed Old Tools
2B: Not feeling the nerf that hard. Whiff recovery is very slightly annoying but it was kinda silly in P4A anyway.

5B: nothing changed. It had options, and all they did was add dash cancel. That's leaving a lot of room open to get your opponent confused on what you want to do.

h5B: It's got stupid long recovery, even on hit. Some kind of cancel is required at all times.

Chain Knuckle A followup (236A/B>6A): Still doesn't seem to be a legit blockstring but it seems to be tighter than previous version. B Guillotine afterwards seems to be a legit string.

Unblockable DP (Full Charge): Tried it somewhere around 15 times. Worked twice. So it's kinda not so good.

j.B: Still dagawd. Ignore frame data changes.

j.A: not feeling the speed nerf too hard, will likely have to see it in the Chie/Yosuke MU before I start talking about it more

Meter gain (still counting as an old tool): Seems to be buffed. Seems to be cause 5AA>5B/2B and Chain Knuckle A followup.

Arrow oki: Not being able to hold it eliminates throw as an option for a meterless combo but otherwise it's generally the same.

Blue Axe Gravitation: Fucks with original 50 SP green-to-red combo using sweep>214A>OMC>5A>2B in green axe cause she can start lower off in green. Easily adjustable. Optimal combos should get better actually.

 

Possible Combo Routes
Auto Combo: Extreme corner carry, decent axe level gain, 5AAA corner carry is -hella-
(Sidenote: can OMC 5AAA for high/low mixup cause she's airborne)

Sweep>236D. Doesn't combo, but I feel it may be decent for delayed pressure. Won't let her meaty though, seems sketchy in setups. Sweep>236C may in theory be nice for the Aigis MU to cover Orgia backdash.

Basic starter>SB Guillotine>236C/D>5AA>2B>j.B>j.C>j.214A. Didn't get to test in all axe levels, but should consistently work. Safe combo. Feel like old arrow stuff would be more optimal but I wanted to test things.

CH 5B>5C>2C>hDP>5AAAA
You have to time the DP release manually now but it's pretty easy timing to feel.

Sweep>214AB
Didn't mess with it too much cause I wasn't used to the confirm, but sweep has good proration and I think it can be a nice possible starter in the future.

Red Axe (Yellow Axe crouch confirm iirc, will test further when game drops):
5AA>5B>236A>6A>214A/B (214A more consistent ender)

Red Axe specific: 5AA>5B>236A>6A>214AB>236C>5AA>2B>j.2B>j.B>j.214B Did just about 4k iirc. Non-optimal after watching Purepure combos with it.

Lolsy Red Axe combo:
5AA>5B>236A>6A>214AB>236A>6A>214B. Chains 5evr. May need counter hit, can't quite remember.

2B>2C>5DD combo seems to no longer work. May have messed up my timing, but it doesn't seem to be a thing anymore. However h5B>2C in the corner works. Can function off OMB and arrow catch setups.

 

Matchup Notes
Bubble is shit in the following matchups so far:

-Ken (Koromaru can take the bubble hit, also can interrupt startup with no risk to Ken)
-Junpei (can bat the bubble, every Ariadne everything. Possible Gears punish with 5B fireball?)

Didn't fight a Yukari or Rise that knew what they were doing.

Naoto matchup's gonna require a bit of work/adapting. J.B'ing traps doesn't work anymore but she also can't stick with bullets for too long. Should attempt to set up bubble so that Labrys can safely eliminate traps and move in. Much harder cause of SB gun super combos taking off all your fate counters easy and ability to Hama oki. Should watch yourselves against S.Naoto.

Mitsuru matchup seems slightly Labrys favored now, at least in neutral. If Labrys sets up bubble, neutral is won free. 5AA>5B>Backdash puts her at a really good position in which you'll be able to gauge how respectful the Mitsuru player is cause of Mitsuru's options being more limited at this point and also answerable.

Ken's blockstrings seem like they have potential but his gatlings don't leave him with many options to really mix you up from his optimal distance. Decent air-to-airs, but his 2B is ass. Hits low and then does an upward swing. People have told me it doesn't have head invuln on the second hit, but can't confirm. Slightly hard to anti-air with Koromaru able to hit you on the ground. DP punish timing is doing 2 back dashes and then tossing out 5B. SB gears on wakeup takes most if not all of Koro's health if he's on screen. Ken's Koromaru super doesn't have invuln it seems.

Kanji matchup seems like in P4A in that it's just sheer intimidation vs. intimidation. Labrys has new based neutral-winning bubble but he has direct Primal Force fuck-yo-projectile setup. Can force him into other options with this in mind.

Labrys bubble is actually really nice for neutral if you can set it up. Full screen people seem to let it happen more often than not. Should be used to catch people sleeping.

 

Overall Impressions
While certain things got changed and some of her frame data got worse, she got better ways to mess with people in neutral and play mindgames abusing her spacing on her normals. They really didn't do much for her defensive game which is still a massive problem, but with SB Gears and new neutral and offensive tools I'm feeling like she's better off. Lack of setplay in matchups is still gonna be a gigantic load off. New possibilities for combo routes have some really nice potential, and the amount of meter she gains is pretty legit. It was good in P4A but now it just feels great. A much more fun and open-ended character. I also feel like she's a character people will have to learn the matchup harder to fight.


 

 

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After watching some of the new Purepure matches, I'm curious how viable that Shadow Berserk -> SB Gears -> OMC -> Brutal Impact A unblockable is. If the opponent has 50 meter they would be able to guard cancel dash through it if timed correctly, but other than that I can only think of spacing being the difficult part. I'm also curious if SB gears lasts long enough to do a OMC 5B full charge unblockable.

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I started testing the setup in U1 when I saw it and I think once the Sweep is blocked the setup is unavoidable unless they burst on block or use 50 meter to guard cancel at the last moment. If they don't have either resource I believe they cant get out of it.

 

Sweep > Berserk > 5B may or may not be gapless but in the vid you see that Kanji is still stuck in his block animation right before the 5B hit so it might be gapless. Cant test that in U1. But 5B > Gears in U1 is gapless even on IB. All versions of Gears in both games have startup of 16 frames so it should still be gapless in U2. 

 

No SB Gears in U1 so I couldn't test OMC Brutal because C/D Gears would end before the Brutal Impact came out. But from just watching the vid you can see the Kanji couldn't do anything. Hard to see with the video quality but it looks like it did around 4.9k

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Chain Knuckle A followup (236A/B>6A): Still doesn't seem to be a legit blockstring but it seems to be tighter than previous version. B Guillotine afterwards seems to be a legit string.

I was wondering about that.

Overall, based off what I've seen and read, it looks like she has more options this time around. Bubble looks interesting, but only seems okay to throw out at full screen. I would have liked something to help on defense, but oh well...

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This is more of a curious question to just set my mind at ease, but what's the naming convention going to be for Ariadne Shadow Labrys (despite already reading the 'DON'T PICK HER, SHE'S BAD' post)? It's already difficult to try to find Labrys vids only to get Shadow Labrys (Asterius) most of the time =/

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Shadow Labrys with Ariadne = S. Labrys

Shadow Labrys with Asterius = S. Labrys [Asterius]

 

At least that's how it was the last time people were talking about naming conventions

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