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PozerWolf

Kokonoe or Brokonoe?

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It seems as though there's been a lot of hate for this character from all over, people stating how this character is too powerful for this game or having Console Character Banned for the sake of keeping tradition.

Though, I do feel that the character is "very powerful" and possibly the strongest character in the BB series, I was wondering how you guys feel about this since this may effect future events to come.

Is this character so powerful that she'll need a ban?

Perhaps banning Console Characters for the time being, going with old traditions?

Allowing the character, as she is powerful, she isn't broken?

Or whatever other questions arise.

What's your opinion on this situation?

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She is most certainly overpowered, however, I wouldn't say that she's completely liable for a Ban. She can be dealt with, abet with a lot of patience, practice, and persistence (and luck, in some cases). The only thing about the character that should be Banned is Black Hole set up in the Corner, IMO, since it is nigh inescapable for some characters, and COMPLETELY inescapable for others.

Edit: On the subject of Banning Console characters, Kagura and Terumi, as far as I can see, don't have anything that could be considered horribly exploitable or just plain devastating like the above. So no, they shouldn't be Banned either. :I

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Edit: On the subject of Banning Console characters, Kagura and Terumi, as far as I can see, don't have anything that could be considered horribly exploitable or just plain devastating like the above. So no, they shouldn't be Banned either. :I

Most tournaments have those characters banned simply for the sake of tradition.

Regardless of how weak or powerful the characters were, unless they were available on Arcade, most of the time Console Characters were banned.

I believe Super Street Fighter 4 kinda broke this tradition, as it was a popular Fighting Game for Consoles only, allowing more content than that the arcade version had.

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Most tournaments have those characters banned simply for the sake of tradition.

Regardless of how weak or powerful the characters were, unless they were available on Arcade, most of the time Console Characters were banned.

I believe Super Street Fighter 4 kinda broke this tradition, as it was a popular Fighting Game for Consoles only, allowing more content than that the arcade version had.

I actually wasn't aware of that tradition (and looking back, I was like "What tradition is s/he talking about???" XD), but even then, I don't see any point in Banning Console characters just for the sake of keeping up tradition when there's nothing particularly wrong with them that would get them Banned under normal circumstances.

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I just find her annoying to fight. With due time I'll learn how to handle her but then again I still have much to learn. I don't think she's unbeatable. ..just an exercise in frustration.

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I guess in this case, for those who feel she's beatable, how do you feel she handles match ups across the board?

From what I've read (all the complaining and what not), it's been stated that she has 8 - 2 Match Ups across the board.

I can't tell if this is an over-exaggeration or not, but I'm actually not too familiar with Kokonoe to establish this.

With that said, I suppose my question would be: What makes her Fair among those who disagree?

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I guess in this case, for those who feel she's beatable, how do you feel she handles match ups across the board?

From what I've read (all the complaining and what not), it's been stated that she has 8 - 2 Match Ups across the board.

I can't tell if this is an over-exaggeration or not, but I'm actually not too familiar with Kokonoe to establish this.

With that said, I suppose my question would be: What makes her Fair among those who disagree?

Hmm... Good question.

Well (bear in mind that I don't own the game as of yet, so this is based completely on observation alone), Kokonoe honestly seems like she cannot afford to make any mistakes whatsoever in her pressure, similarly to Nu, or her lack of defensive options will get the better of her. There's also the matter of how easy/hard she is to use. I can't really say myself, but I've heard that she's about as difficult as Rachel, so I think that might be a valid point if it's true.

In a nutshell, she seems like a very high risk, high reward, Glass Cannon type of character. So with that in mind, her lack of Meterless defenses (is Super Ball even that good of a Reversal?) are what keeps her from being completely unfair to fight.

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(bear in mind that I don't own the game as of yet, so this is based completely on observation alone)

In a nutshell, she seems like a very high risk, high reward, Glass Cannon type of character.

Glass Cannon type of character

Don't mean to sound rude, but these two things kinda makes any point you make completely invalid.

She has a lot of health and... I'm asking those who actually play and wanting their feedback.

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I don't know man, 10K off of unblockable corner setups that build their own meter? Sounds pretty balanced to me!

10k, what?!

Is this real?!?!?

I've heard somewhere around 7.8k, but when people tell me that, I assume it takes like a full OD or something.

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10k, what?!

Is this real?!?!?

I've heard somewhere around 7.8k, but when people tell me that, I assume it takes like a full OD or something.

Ya, OD cancel, black hole starter, CT, and golden Tager at the end. I'll try to find the video. Also 100 heat to start off with

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UI6rP9ZwT0

My mistake everyone, there is no crush trigger in this combo

Edit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gewHZ_sSr7w

Here's another, it's not from black hole, it's a punish combo, but you only need 50 heat for it (the rest it builds by itself). Oh, and you can do it with full health!

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Kokonoe is neither high risk or a glass cannon. Nor is she as difficult as rachel. Rather, their play styles are similar. Kokonoe can play a simplified play style because her graviton and fireballs have simple concepts, and the ray is just set and forget/play around. Not to say she is autopilot but she certainly needs to worry about less that what rachel has to look for just to keep someone out a second longer.

IMO koko has great defensive options. Her backslash gives her good invulnerable and travels a decent speed with decent recovery. Forward dash is one of the best in game, no acceleration to worry about, fast. Teleport is f1 invulnerable, you can't get better than that. That means outside of certain setups she will escape the corner or certain oki's vs other chars; even hitting her, I mean, now your back is to the corner. So mid screen combo (which , for most chars, is inferior to corner ones), and still a momentum shift. And this is just assuming you punished the teleport recovery.

Then there's super ball. 3 f1 invul fires that travel distances depending on the version used, so don't think you can just loloutspace it with something farther range. Oh, and it doesn't go away on block/hit, so you might get punished for punishing her trying to punish you. They lead into all types of stupid mixup.

Come on I barely scratched the surface on this character lol. Personally I think the ho is broke, she deserves all the salt she gets. Should she be banned? Well, we dealt with cs1 litchi and her fucking daisharin, so perhaps one little unblockable into 10k won't hurt. And anyway koko is fun as heck, especially those interested in that type of well rounded zoning/momentum based char.

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Don't mean to sound rude, but these two things kinda makes any point you make completely invalid.

She has a lot of health and... I'm asking those who actually play and wanting their feedback.

Glass Cannon in the sense that she lacks defensive options, but has a huge plethora of offensive, high damaging tools at her disposal, not in terms of HP. Mayhaps I should have been a bit clearer on that. My bad.

Also, "invalid"? Eh, I'd say that the opinion of one that observes is just as valid as that of one that plays, so long as they know the bare basics of what's being discussed, and as stated above, I did clear up what I meant by that term. But I'll say no more on the matter.

Edit: And upon reading the comment above me, I realize that Glass Cannon may not be the correct term for Kokonoe. God Among Men would be a more fitting term for her. XD

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As someone who regularly plays a Kokonoe player, I can attest that she is not ban worthy. She IS however really, really, really freaking good. She is one of those characters that you need to study the matchup for or you'll get blown up so hard. I find that it's actually not so terrible because you can just touch her and mix her up until she's dead, and she has almost no answer to it. Just learn her strings and block like you've never blocked before. Black hole setups on the other hand are kind of BS, fortunately I play a character who has ways around it, but the fact that it works 100% of the time on certain characters is absurd.

So yeah. Make that confirm count.

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There isn't anything else to be said that TD hasn't. Yeah, she's broken but I would disagree and say she is auto pilot. I wouldn't ban her from tournaments but I'd be discouraged from joining any that allow her just because of the unfair advantage she presents. She has so many moves that are the best in their rightful category that it's just stupid. She either needs a huge nerf or the rest of the roster needs a huge buff before shes truly ready for tournament play.

@ElegantShadow

She actually has a lot of ways she can get out of the corner and pressure for free. She does a lot of damage with very little risk involved, can cross the entire screen in a couple seconds, has amazing oki setups, one of the fastest overheads in the game that links off pretty much anything, can cross you up from the other side of the screen without putting herself in danger, and can essentially stuff any approach with graviton and lightning rods.

She also has a big health pool so she is anything but a glass canon.

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Ban worthy? No.

Nerf Worthy? Hell yes.

Others have described most of the details. Amazing offense and good defense (backdash, Teleport, Super-Ball) with a self-sustaining UB set-up half the cast can't escape. And easier to learn and execute than similar characters in the cast, often to better results.

However, despite all that, I don't think she should be banned. Fighters have dealt with hideous imbalances before, and only rarely have such things been so bad as to necessitate a ban.

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As someone who regularly plays a Kokonoe player, I can attest that she is not ban worthy. She IS however really, really, really freaking good. Se is one of those characters that you need to study the matchup for or you'll get blown up so hard. I find that it's actually not so terrible because you can just touch her and mix her up until she's dead, and she has almost no answer to it. Just learn her strings and block like you've never blocked before. Black hole setups on the other hand are kind of BS, fortunately I play a character who has ways around it, but the fact that it works 100% of the time on certain characters is absurd.

So yeah. Make that confirm count.

if a valkenhayn player says another character is really really really freaking good... lol.

well. whatever. I just hope they don't take too long to put out another version.

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Only had the pleasure of being destroyed by Kokonoe a few times, but the experiences reminded me of whenever I would jump on Skullgirls and get completely curb stomped by Sguigly insanely long never ending combos with a touch of Cerebella's butt attack assist.

So yeah, Kokonoe is great.

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Ban worthy? No.

Nerf Worthy? Hell yes.

I think that's the thing everyone is kinda going off of, and waiting for any kind of nerf until she's "worthy of playing" kind of deal.

I still remember the twitter posts from strong players in Japan saying how she was only a week or 2 old, and random players were beating Gods with this character. I don't know what the result of the matter is now, but watching some of those FT 10, 20, 50s, etc as of recent, seeing koko only lose 2 or 3 times against the best is a bit... troublesome.

People do state it's only a matter until learning the match up, but she still seems just as powerful, so who knows.

But, I don't the East worries about this issue since it seems they just ban console characters anyways (for the most part). I dunno.

...I guess in this case, what actually does make a character ban worthy?

I know in a argument like this, people would bring up characters like Akuma from ST, but even when Akuma is allowed, the best Akuma players usually don't always win.

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My take on this subject would be in short, is she banned worthy? No but very very close,

The main cons of her seem to be having some slow normals and her defensive options being a bit meh but still viable.

If she was a character with all the tools she has now but did almost no damage that would have been fine, she still would have been soild

but...we have a character with all this godly tools and capable of dealing 10K worth of damage off a throw and 50 meter :/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26Yi6kfWvuc

Edit: the throw combo does 3.9k + black hole followup before SUPA BALL does 6.2k, still can kill a good few of the cast

yeah....

Summed up, This character is broke, wouldn't ban her because their are ways of dealing with her (though quite few) Arc, nerfs pls

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I appreciate all the feedback here.

I only ask cause, running tournaments for this game people are bringing to my attention of this character's people and even speak of banning her.

There's also been players around our area that learned Kokonoe for a good 3 weeks and quit her, following with the lines "she's too powerful, I can't" and so on.

I've just recently purchase her yesterday, so I'll give her a go.

But yeah, like I ask, what does make a character truly ban worthy, anyways? Honestly, I've never ran into this kind of debate before, since most of the time, after a few months after release it's sometimes determined to ban X character or not.

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oh ok cool

If I had to say what made a character ban worthy would be all or at least most of these the following conditions are met

1) They are incredibly overpowered (Kokonoe Check)

2) They have far superior tools to the rest of the cast or at least have some of the best tools in the game (check)

3) Moveset is too safe, moves are almost unpunishable (Koko does have some moves that are pretty unsafe but have some have good reach on them so...)

4) True Infinites (to my knowledge Koko doesn't have.....)

:v:

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