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PozerWolf

Kokonoe or Brokonoe?

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Eeek, so she's considered a Check away from being broken?

But for references, I know the best, characters who are banned outside of being console exclusive normally don't carry infinities on them. They're just very, very powerful characters.

In fact, most games I've seen characters with infs tend to be low tier (think Melty Blood comes to mind how some mid-low tier characters had particular infs, but they were never considered the best).

EDIT:

Watching that video, TBF those other players were not very good.

The Pet shop kept screwing up the unblockable setup, but the opponents kept eating the attack anyways (sometimes not even bother blocking it), and even woke up mashing at times. So this video can be very deceiving to those not familiar with JoJo.

But, just like the ST Akuma thing stated earlier, there's been times Pet Shop has been allowed and didn't win the tournament. I remember a buddy always told me back then, "Even bad Pet Shops can lose" when new MvC2 players would pick MSP and except to be good day 1.

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Sadly, or surprisingly, after 3 weeks of playing online I still have only come across 1 Kokonoe, so I would not say I'm at the position to judge. But I do remember having to go super saiyan and block the instant overheads like a king. I think that once you've seen her blockstrings a lot, her mixup isn't too scary, unless your blocking that 50/50 hammer. Even that can probably be dealt with if you know the player your fighting, and can guess really well. I don't need to mention anything else because everybody else has, but I was just thinking this off the top of my head. (Though it is me, I could be totally wrong here.)

I don't think she is ban worthy either.

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She is ban worthy if used to her full potential. I fully believe this after watching gods like Tsujikawa.

The thing is I don't live in Japan I live in America. Americans are not doing truly broken stuff yet and are barely going past the just generally good shit she has.

She is definitely very strong even here, but until she starts dominating (and winning) majors she won't and should not be banned. When we see 6/8 of top 8 as Koko then that is when we legitimately consider banning her. However when players are using her and get to top 16 then lose to fking Noel or Kagura I see no reason to ban her yet.

The biggest problem I see is that everyone KNOWS shes broken. So everyone (me included) is spending time to learn the character as a sub/potential main. This is going to lead to an unhealthy game state that is just entirely Koko or anti Koko. There is just no way for characters that can't fight Koko to do well in tournament and there are quite a few characters that just get demolished by her.

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She is ban worthy if used to her full potential. I fully believe this after watching gods like Tsujikawa.

The thing is I don't live in Japan I live in America. Americans are not doing truly broken stuff yet and are barely going past the just generally good shit she has.

I feel like this isn't a strong statement to go about this, as if we followed this rule of thumb, every character for every game would be allowed regardless of the situation due to certain countries being too weak.

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Exactly the point though. Banning characters in a fighting game should never be taken lightly. It also should not happen if only one player comes out and starts dominating.

Like I said earlier don't ban her until we have a major that is more Kokonoe then not in top 8. If she never wins anything anyway what is the point of banning her? As a point of reference we let CS1 Valk rock all the way through the lifespan of the game. He was just as bad if not worse than CP Koko.

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Exactly the point though. Banning characters in a fighting game should never be taken lightly. It also should not happen if only one player comes out and starts dominating.

Yes, but there's a big differences between "dominating" and "broken".

Some characters don't even get a chance to shine on tournaments and have been labeled broken, yet in those games they have dominating characters.

EX Characters are banned due to be console Exclusive in Guilty Gear, yet back in the #Reload days Eddie totally dominated.

In Super Turbo, Akuma didn't place to well in tournaments, but was considered broken by majority of players and decided to give the character a hard ban, yet O.Sagat dominated. Even when Akuma is allowed, he doesn't always win those tournaments.

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Watching that video, TBF those other players were not very good.

The Pet shop kept screwing up the unblockable setup, but the opponents kept eating the attack anyways (sometimes not even bother blocking it), and even woke up mashing at times. So this video can be very deceiving to those not familiar with JoJo.

But, just like the ST Akuma thing stated earlier, there's been times Pet Shop has been allowed and didn't win the tournament. I remember a buddy always told me back then, "Even bad Pet Shops can lose" when new MvC2 players would pick MSP and except to be good day 1.

Well it's not really easy to find a video a of a good petshop because like ST Akuma, no really good player uses him, but the point wasn't the level of the players here, but more what a bannable character is.

I think Petshop is pretty much the perfect exemple and as you seem to know the game, I doubt you'll disagree, he's not just too strong with what he can do to you, but also thanks to what you can't do to him, like being unthrowable or having a lot of moves whiff on him because he's flying.

Of course he takes some skill to use effectively and bad players won't win for free with him, but if you can do his good stuff, you won't lose that often unless facing really better players (probably using the few characters that can somehow manage him).

Also in Japan, outside of Tougeki, there's nothing that's actually really banned, most people just won't use it. When i went there and played HNK, a few things had been banned in the Tougeki rules, but actually in the arcade, no one would stop you from doing those things, maybe some people might look down on you but nothing more.

Anyway i don't think Kokonoe is comparable to a character like Petshop, she for sure is a really strong character, she might be a dominant character (but honestly for now i don't see her as dominant as #R Eddie was), i would wait and see what happen before going to ban her just because people online can deal with full screen fireball into TP or block her 6B. As of now, the only thing i think is worth discussing to ban is the black hole.

EDIT :

Yes, but there's a big differences between "dominating" and "broken".

Some characters don't even get a chance to shine on tournaments and have been labeled broken, yet in those games they have dominating characters.

Actually i think with the ps3/360 gen games when it started to be possible to patch games, a lot of people started to label thing as broken way too easely just to get a patch instead of working on finding if something can be done to counter.

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IMO ban all console characters, for being console characters, until ASW puts them in the arcade version, which they will eventually, probably this year, because characters cost a lot to create so they'll be used later to attract people to the newer arcade balance patch.

ASW doesn't care about releasing experimental, unpolished, beta version material for the fan service home version, which is something they have always done in GG and BB, because for them the arcade version is where the serious business and the tournaments are. I'd rather play the "standard" version of the game rather than sacrifice western tournaments on the altar of their beta test. As soon as they put them in the arcade, regardless if they changed them or not, then you can make them legal again.

To me this feels like pre-GGAC+R Justice and Kliff, EX, black and gold characters. Regardless of who is too strong and who isn't, no arcade=no tournament play.

Debating if a character is too strong can go on forever, but the console exclusivity rule saves everyone the headache and is the most fair. If an arcade character is too strong, it's EVERYONE's problem and ASW will fix it because it harms the JP arcade scene (which is the best authority to discover who is really strong to begin with) but if a console exclusive is too strong, ASW has no reason to give a shit about some small western tournament scene.

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Well it's not really easy to find a video a of a good petshop because like ST Akuma, no really good player uses him, but the point wasn't the level of the players here, but more what a bannable character is.

Well, no that's not all true. I forget his name (will need to look them up), but there are ST Akuma players that only play Akuma and those players are considered very good at the game. As for Pet Shop players, you might be right, I dunno.

To me this feels like pre-GGAC+R Justice and Kliff. Regardless of who is strong and who isn't, no arcade=no tournament play.

Debating if a character is too strong can go on forever, but the console exclusivity rule saves everyone the headache and is the most fair. If an arcade character is too strong, it's EVERYONE's problem and ASW will fix it because it harms the JP arcade scene (which is the best authority to discover who is really strong to begin with) but if a console exclusive is too strong, ASW has no reason to give a shit about some small western tournament scene.

Yea, I understand where you're coming from on this statement.

In +R, Kliff was proven too strong with the "adjustments" given to him, only to be patch shortly after... for arcades of course.

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I think Zidane put Kokonoe's problems best once while I was watching a stream. I forgot what he exactly said, the TL;DR version is that she's in beta.

Ban her? I'm not sure. I'd have to consider why we'd ban her in one place or another. If it sends the message that she needs more work, and that message is received, then I think we should ban her. She needs more work.

A lot of people are going to look at this thread and say America just sucks, but without presenting some sort of proof that Japan has already figured her out and has the tech and we just don't because we weren't watching them enough (lol), they'll have a hard time brushing this off as America just sucking (which I could talk all day about - have some fucking respect for your own hard work!)

People saying we have no perspective on this issue seem to be brushing off the facts or are wearing rose-colored glasses. I don't need to say anymore about that.

You want a precedent for a decision? Here's one:

We recently banned Macros in Guilty Gear because of Justice and sometimes Baiken, with some otherwise shaky postulations and prognostications that the competitive scene would die / be lolerskates if pad players ran amok in the GG scene cheating. I think it was bullshit and mostly paranoid, but there you have it. It's banned.

In the Macro case, it was clear some things were rendered not only too easy, but some things came out that were otherwise not doable and broken and unintended. I could argue Kokonoe's moves and design are broken and unintended, otherwise not in the spirit of comparable and intended things.

Finally, If we're going to sit here and say "America sucks GIT GUD", then someone needs to show proof of the tech and the results that show Kokonoe is actually well-designed and balanced provided that tech in places like Japan. Good luck, I'd love to see the tech and get an explanation so I can get out there and start beating her. I'll be waiting.

All of the hours we all put into this game, all the studying and work we do, and we have the lack of confidence and self-respect (and respect to each other) to just dump on ourselves in America and call it a day? Why not ban her, then? We all in America obviously suck and are bad so who cares? Ban her, then!

PERSONALLY: I don't care anymore that she's broken and unfinished. I'm just gonna do my thing, maybe pop the 800 yen and figure out what little I can - I'm not going to bullshit around, though - the facts are the facts with this character.

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If i look at the people i mostly play with and that would probably go to tournaments in France, there's 3 Terumis, 2 Kokonoes and 1 Kagura, so 6 players that might just not come if their character is banned, when you think that getting like 30 players is hard here, possibly losing 6 isn't really something we want to do.

The old way of banning console characters when we did everything like the japanese would do in the arcades has a cost, in France we stopped banning shortcuts around #R time to avoid losing some pad players (GG is pretty much dead here but i doubt the negative edge thing would make people change their opinion), i don't think banning three characters just for the fact of being console exclusive is the way to go in a small community.

Well, no that's not all true. I forget his name (will need to look them up), but there are ST Akuma players that only play Akuma and those players are considered very good at the game. As for Pet Shop players, you might be right, I dunno.

.

I remember Damdai played him at the start of HDR to prove that he should be banned like he was in ST, but as for ST i can only remember Inoki playing him at X-Mania 3, but he was mainly a Ryu player afaik, maybe you have some in the US that i don't know, in Europe we for sure don't have anyone playing him.

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As absurd is Black Hole is, it's one of the least broken things about Kokonoe. She can't do it every match because it requires corner and 50 meter. The fact that she is better than every other character at any one aspect of gameplay is why she is broken. America being worse than Japan is irrelevant, Japanese players hate her too. I understand arguments about allowing dlc characters in the console generation and "arbitrary" bans setting a bad precedent and whatever, but honestly, I don't care. BBCP without Kokonoe is a good game. BBCP with Kokonoe is not. Everyone knows it. Maybe that means she only warrants a soft ban like GG macros or O.Sagat, which would be okay I suppose.

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How does a soft ban even work? It sounds like it just amounts to "we'll be mad if you play her."

I doubt that would work in the US.

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I'm against banning Koko on the principle of "adapt to win" (unless seriously OP).

She's not as bad as CS Litchi/Valk if you ask me. Strong, yes. But I wouldn't say broke.

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If i look at the people i mostly play with and that would probably go to tournaments in France, there's 3 Terumis, 2 Kokonoes and 1 Kagura, so 6 players that might just not come if their character is banned, when you think that getting like 30 players is hard here, possibly losing 6 isn't really something we want to do.

While it won't solve your current problem, I think it's a good standard to enforce in all the future games, even Xrd and P4U2 and the next BB, should a scenario like this arise again. You can't have an excuse if you know a console exclusive will not be tournament legal before you even get your hands on a game.

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I appreciate all the feedback here.

I only ask cause, running tournaments for this game people are bringing to my attention of this character's people and even speak of banning her.

There's also been players around our area that learned Kokonoe for a good 3 weeks and quit her, following with the lines "she's too powerful, I can't" and so on.

I've just recently purchase her yesterday, so I'll give her a go.

But yeah, like I ask, what does make a character truly ban worthy, anyways? Honestly, I've never ran into this kind of debate before, since most of the time, after a few months after release it's sometimes determined to ban X character or not.

I'd say ban worthy is if you can't argue them not being broken...Aquapazza 2.0's Chizuru; as her total screen dominance and ease of gaining momentum makes her ideal, for every playstyle; long as there are people still out there using other characters and doing well, it's not an issue I reckon.

Afterall, a tournament should be interesting, for viewers and players, and the chance for players to take down weaker people whom are using TEH MOST OP CHARACTER with stuff like Amane; against all odds, pretty effin hype methinks!!!

btw, I say keep 'em all in, with luck Kokonoe should suffer the same fate as Yukiko and Wesker

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I'm against banning Koko on the principle of "adapt to win" (unless seriously OP).

Well, that's the entire point of this post.

I've played strong Litchis and Valks back in CS. Both strong, but I never found them "broken" or even THAT powerful. Top tier materiel, yes, but with their weaknesses.

But then again, as mentioned earlier, I haven't ran into any Kokos ._.

Also, I love Star-Demon's post.

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I think Huey put it best some time ago during something that I don't remember what it was; we can still do combos on her and she can still take damage, so I'll still fight her.

In my humble opinion, I do believe that she is rather blindingly OP, but I don't think I would ban her given the option.

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Why does this character have some of the best zoning in the game while having some of the best normal mobility (not considering stuff like valk and hazama) in the game all the while having arguably THE best normals in the whole game with pressure strings that never seem to end? Yeah, she's pretty broken. But still, is she ban worthy? I'm not sure, but i don't think so, simply on the basis that there are other VERY powerful characters in this game(Valk and Tao to name a few), so why not ban them too? Although, if there was an argument for a ban, that would probably be it :

The biggest problem I see is that everyone KNOWS shes broken. So everyone (me included) is spending time to learn the character as a sub/potential main. This is going to lead to an unhealthy game state that is just entirely Koko or anti Koko. There is just no way for characters that can't fight Koko to do well in tournament and there are quite a few characters that just get demolished by her.

Health of the scene is the biggest issue here. If people don't want to come out and play tournaments because of this character, then she needs a ban until she gets fixed. Otherwise, it's all good, as frustrating as she might be to play against. Other games, like 3rd Strike, have had very lopsided casts and still have done well. Although, i know i expect better from ArcSys games.

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While it won't solve your current problem, I think it's a good standard to enforce in all the future games, even Xrd and P4U2 and the next BB, should a scenario like this arise again. You can't have an excuse if you know a console exclusive will not be tournament legal before you even get your hands on a game.

Not everyone choses their characters with tournaments in mind, especially like in France where you have one or two tournament each year, the one tournament when we have the best chance to draw players has a lot of casuals, maybe half the entrants don't take the game that seriously, so we might lose people anyway.

Also it's not an issue with BB anymore as the cast has become large enough, but it might be the case with Xrd at first, when you have a very small roster, people will argue that banning characters isn't such a good idea.

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there's an issue with BB in that the learning curve for characters is pretty steep, and that this is just a console character

So probably most of the effects you would think of happening due to kokonoe being fucked up are gonna be lessened.

- people are reluctant to drop characters they've played for years

- people are reluctant to drop characters because hopefully the next version will be sooner rather than later (console), and the obviously beta character will be fixed

- takes work even if you switch

I think people know that kokonoe is that broken, but I don't know how many people honestly play this game to be really competitive in tournaments. Or try to win evo.

So, yeah, powerwise, I think she's bannable, but also think there really isn't a need to ban her either. There will probably just be a lot of saltiness all around until the next version of the game, and the scene will suffer as a result but I don't see a good resolution anyway.

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until the next version of the game

I'm actually not looking forward to another version of the game, as I feel like it's very close to where it needs to be.

But I dunno, another version would make me sad :(

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high chance its going to happen, so the best that you can do is be prepared.

after the patch there certainly shouldn't be anymore salt thrown at kokonoe. perhaps everyone can resume their previous task of burning other tops at the stake.

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Why do most of you guys welcome new versions/releases/revisions so complacently and easily? How do you do that? :\

Do you love spending money? Some people can't keep up and is part of the reason people lose interest. I'd be pissed if this is the way it gets handled, which of course will happen but I hope not too soon. :(

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